Ya I agree with that, I don't think today's match, or any one match for that matter, should be used to assess a player's level.
Donkai Havertz | Arsenal Watch
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Ya I agree with that, I don't think today's match, or any one match for that matter, should be used to assess a player's level.
He’s likely going to be a good signing in the long run. Chelsea have an extremely talented squad but you wouldn’t fear a team managed by Lampard over the course of a season.
Havertz immediate short term problem is finding a way to affect games. Hes far too easy to shut down and given Chelsea have Jorginho and Kovacic the play isn’t going to go through him.
Havertz immediate short term problem is finding a way to affect games. Hes far too easy to shut down and given Chelsea have Jorginho and Kovacic the play isn’t going to go through him.
Looks like a cool headed youngster who has adjusted seamlessly to a league in a new country. He seems to have the tools to be a top class player under a quality manager. Good signing by Chelsea.
Don;t see him as 100m worth of talent yet. But its early days and he is still young, I'd wait wait until end of season to judge.
I don’t think I’ve seen a single post you’ve made I agree with, so there’s a surprise.
Nobody rates Ziyech as a future top top player though. The hype surrounding Havertz and Sancho was just that. One doesn't look at the level of the other in terms of ability.
I just don't see him as the top top player worth the money Chelsea played him. He got a great first touch and vision, but most of the time is too easy to be taken out of the game. He's not influencing matches enough for someone with his supposedly amount of talent. Early days though, but I doubt that Lampard is the guy who'll unlocked his ability
Considering you see "decent technical quality" and "no insightful passing", I take that as a compliment.
I think nobody who really followed both would suggest that Havertz is on the same level as Sancho ability-wise. Sancho is a tier above Havertz. But I'd take Havertz ahead of other hyped up talents like Dembele immediately.
That being said I saw the current reactions coming to a certain extent. Players like Havertz have to play extraordinarily great to be really appreciated in the EPL. He would've had a much easier time in La Liga or Serie A, for instance.
As much as I think Havertz is overrated at times ("already world-class", "generational" etc.), here I have to disagree.
Both of them are very promising talents.
I wouldn't put Sancho above Havertz though.
While he has great traits, there are also quite a few question marks surrounding Sancho.
Zehner talks a lot of sense generally and I enjoy his posts because they are well informed and written. Makes a welcome change from all the "told you he's overrated" type of one-line posts when player X has a bad game or "why didn't we sign him" when he he's had a good one these kind of threads get bumped with that add nothing to the discussion. Which sadly happens all too often these on the Caf where analytical discussion is increasingly hard to find (and usually comes from the followers of other leagues) in midst of all the knee-jerk noise and people perceiving the faintest praise of another team's player as an attack on their own. Not saying you are one of them.
Aside from going to a very different league, he is going from being far and above his teammates in terms of talent, to a team where everyone around him is very talented. He has to learn how to play in a squad that is very different from what he has always known. He is also very young. He will develop or he will be a very expensive miss. I think he will rise with experience.
I think there's no clear definition of world class. However, if a player scores 17 goals and 17 assists in 2290 league minutes, equaling a scorer every 67 minutes, I don't see how that wasn't world class. To a lesser degree, that's also the case regarding Havertz considering his generally deeper position but more so regarding the 18/19 season.
They might not have done it for a bigger team and thus didn't win any trophies but since they pulled such statistics of with weaker team mates, that should speak in their favour, IMO. If they can neatlessly reproduce those numbers in another team is a different story but especially Sancho simply had an unreal season and got the stats to prove it.
Regarding Sancho vs Havertz, I'm obviously biased towards Havertz but Sancho simply has more to his game than him. Havertz is probably a slightly better passer and a better finisher, but Sancho is arguably an even better reader of the game and in terms of dribbling ability he outperforms him clearly. Not a shame on Havertz though, think Sancho is just an outstanding talent and compares insane potential with high maturity at a very young age.
Thanks
This thread typifies everything wrong with football related forums. A couple of games into the season and already people are passing judgement on Kai Havertz.
He was rather quiet against us in the last game but then again, that game was a snoozefest. I've no doubt he will come good and have a good season.
He was rather quiet against us in the last game but then again, that game was a snoozefest. I've no doubt he will come good and have a good season.
It seems like players are only allowed be unreal and elite or a an overrated bust and nothing in between, especially if there was a bit of hype around them when the player made the move which the player has no control over. Sancho will be subjected to the same thing when he eventually makes his move.
It's worth mentioning that Sancho outside the Dortmund bubble (for England) hasn't exactly lit the world on fire.
That doesn't really mean much for me, as it's England, a team managed by Southgate and a lot of England games dead games with not a whole lot riding on it. Removing his work for Dortmund is basically removing 99% percent of his career.
To be fair though, its usually the same few who are constantly in Chelsea/other club related threads slagging players/the manager off. Others who arent trolls, tend to be more balanced with their views.
To be fair to Havertz, he was quite sleek in his passing yesterday in Russia. He wasn't exceptional, but there's a lot of talent in that kid.
He needs to bulk up a little, I think.
The small problem with Chelsea is that almost all of their attacking/flair players can be easily outmuscled - Havertz, Pulisic, Ziyech, Abraham, CHO, Werner (short). They really need a tall bully like Drogba or Costa upfront.
He needs to bulk up a little, I think.
The small problem with Chelsea is that almost all of their attacking/flair players can be easily outmuscled - Havertz, Pulisic, Ziyech, Abraham, CHO, Werner (short). They really need a tall bully like Drogba or Costa upfront.
Hes unreal on the half turn. Got behind their midfield running at their defence so many times yesterday.
Abraham isn’t a tall bully? He bulks up and he’ll become immobile. 1.9 metres tall and 87kg is big and heavy for a striker. Doesn’t seem to bother Liverpoo having Mane and co as their front line.
Didn't know Abraham was 87 kg. The problem with Chelsea is that even their midfield is pretty 'frail' - Jorginho, Kovacic, Kante (short). They look like a team that can be run over by a fast and strong side.
Not saying Chelsea's attack doesn't have weaknesses but strength isn't a requirement in today's football - at least not in attack.
At the moment he floats in and out of games. His touches and passes are really good, though I have noticed he has tended to play it safe more often than I'd like. The more we dominate a game, the more he is actively involved.
Agreed I think the mentality of being aggressive will always be on par with brute strength. The Liverpool example mentioned above is a poor one some players such as Mane, Hazard, Sterling, Salah have excellent balance and a low center of gravity which makes them hard to dispossess.
I think Havertz will come good, I predicted that so many attacking changes will take time to accommodate in the league. One concern I feel however is that Lampard now has a team that lacks balance.
For us, he definitely flourished in more patient systems. Nobody to rush the ball forward, he's better at creating chances from controlled possession.
His two assists for CHO have come during the moments we had the opponent penned in inside the own box, so he's shown he can be really effective in those situations. A lot of our games this season have been quite frantic, but I think we learned something last night - Havertz came alive when we switched to 433 Kante at the base with Havertz/Mount as the two 8's.
Yes. Already said it when the rumors to England began. Many people thought he was a classic 10 but his best performances for us - the ones that made him one of the greatest prospects in Europe - occurred when he was playing as an 8 in a 4-3-3 or a 8/10 hybrid alongside Brandt in a 3-6-1 with four two CDMs behind them. He's not a classic 10 or even a second striker. His great finishing and timing with runs into the box might have lead to this misconception but naturally, he's a CM. And not a box to box type like Lampard or Gerrard were but more like an Iniesta or David Silva type of player, position-wise.
That's not set in stone, obviously, since he's also shown great performances as a false 9 for example, has a very broad tool set and could grow into many different roles. But you can't really expect him to play a position he isn't used to and excel in it immediately.
Havertz is a great football player but a bad signing for Chelsea, Lampard doesn't know how to gravitate the play through him and I doubt he actually wants to try that.
Harvetz is a new young player coming to England after having no pre-season. For me, I have seen him a bit and he looks good but needs to build up a bit of muscle and stamina to be able to stay in the game (which is fairly straightforward.) Further, Lampard needs to play him in his proper position, which is an No.8 rather than stick him out of the wing or as a False 9/No.10.
Personally, I think he may need a season/season and a bit then he will be a top player in the league.
Personally, I think he may need a season/season and a bit then he will be a top player in the league.
1 goal + 1 assist in 10 league games. And how much they spent on him? €90m incl add-ons? Surprised he's not under more media pressure.
Addons will only kick in if he performs or Chelsea win stuff.
If he's shite and we don't, there's no point talking about add ons.
As for media pressure, maybe they realise that he's a young player coming into a new league and has had a pretty serious illness so think it would be ridiculous to pile on about him not being as good as the other Chelsea signings.
Yeah he looks woeful and at a huge price.
He's a Mezzala. Just like Pogba.
Which is why, I predict that there will be a lot of debate about his best position. He's going to be played in RW, as a #10, and in a pivot, and it will not look natural. There are going to be debates. His best position is as the RCM, as the furthest forward in a 3 man midfield.
Its a relief that he's turned out to be the way he has. Imagine if he was delivering from his first season. Chelsea would've run away with the trophy. Both Werner and Havertz have played worse than their hype suggested.
Mendy, Silva, Chilwell and Ziyech have all been big positives though.
4 out of 6 hitting the ground running is great.
Havertz has been overall pants but I don't think Werner has been bad, just not up to the expectations of some.
Yeah, but I was particularly worried about Havertz and Werner, who were sort of unknown quantities for me at least.
He's 20 and in a new league. Give him time.
If he was a United player, he would have been destroyed by the media, they would have been onto him like vultures. That's just a fact.
Theres been two new players coming into the league who have been completely anonymous, one because he's barely played and the other because he's played and done nothing. Guess which one has got more headlines eh