Donkai Havertz | Arsenal Watch

Zehner said:
German teams in general are very focused on collective compared to their English counterparts. This reflects the image many Germans have about how to play football ("11 Freunde müsst ihr sein") but also is a tribute to the financial disadvantages German clubs have (always had) compared to their international competitors from England, Spain and Italy. I feel like there's much more emphasis on playing style, system etc. than it is in English football where the focus is more on individual quality.

I think that's part of the reason why some players who did exceptionally well in Germany couldn't replicate that abroad. Naturally a functioning collective enables you to perform much better than you would in a less well drilled team and if a player is used to playing in such a unit, it's harder for him to adapt to a more "improvised" tactical environment. That for example happened to Kagawa and Mkhitaryan, I believe. But I'd say the same would happen to players like Mane, Salah or Sterling, currently.

Now the question is, which player is better - the specialist who flourishes in the right environment and hits a very high ceiling there or the generalist who does well in every environment but might never reach those heights? Since IMO a top club should always try to implement a system, I'd personally go for the former and try to build a team of players flourishing in similar environments. That's essentially what Klopp and Pep are doing.
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I really like all your points there. And thank you for enlightening me better because I always felt somehow that those players who did wonderfully well at German clubs (very few of them) showed their true mettle at other leagues. I mean, Liverpool aside who have probably the best manager who knows exactly what he wants and what attributes he wants, other teams have not been able to get the best.
And Coming back to your original post, now it makes much more sense that expecting Kai to do what Hazard did might be very wrong because Hazard is a flair player who had great individual talent and Kai is more of a system player who thrives in the right environment

Thank you mate
 
drmuji said:
I really like all your points there. And thank you for enlightening me better because I always felt somehow that those players who did wonderfully well at German clubs (very few of them) showed their true mettle at other leagues. I mean, Liverpool aside who have probably the best manager who knows exactly what he wants and what attributes he wants, other teams have not been able to get the best.
And Coming back to your original post, now it makes much more sense that expecting Kai to do what Hazard did might be very wrong because Hazard is a flair player who had great individual talent and Kai is more of a system player who thrives in the right environment

Thank you mate
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Don't get me wrong, I believe Havertz possesses great talent, just not to the level of Hazard. However, the skills he has aren't necessarily suited to create something completely on his own. He can beat one or two players when he's in motion but can't take on half the team on a regular basis. He's got great passing, finishing, ball control and especially intelligence/timing. A bit like Silva maybe who also needed players to link up with or make runs for him.

And that's the profile of many German players in general. The youth system in Germany didn't produce these genius level talents for a long time, with maybe the exception of Götze, since it was too focused on systems and tactics. There's a great overhaul going on currently that seeks to correct this as a side note.
 
Can you imagine the uproar if we had bought a player at that price and weren’t starting him every week. You would never hear the end of it

edit: just noticed he started tonight :lol:
 
FrankDrebin said:
What kind of player is he ?
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He's Dele Alli basically. Goal scoring midfielder. He won't give you a playmaking ability like Bruno, he won't control or dictate the midfield like De Jong, he is not physical player like Pogba. He's just someone who score goals and link up play like Dele Alli, take away his goals, he's nothing. At least Dele Alli was much more skillful.
 
drmuji said:
Very interesting point that you make. I just wanted to ask you, its the system which German Clubs use which make players perform better than they can individually, because I get the same feeling that Sancho will be very similar when he leaves Bundesliga.
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Have you followed Sancho this season?
 
UNITED ACADEMY said:
He's Dele Alli basically. Goal scoring midfielder. He won't give you a playmaking ability like Bruno, he won't control or dictate the midfield like De Jong, he is not physical player like Pogba. He's just someone who score goals and link up play like Dele Alli, take away his goals, he's nothing. At least Dele Alli was much more skillful.
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That's interesting, given the hype I thought he was a bit more than that. From what I've seen of Havertz I haven't been impressed by anything in his game, which is a worry because I'd have at least expected to see flashes of brilliance even if his performances were inconsistent (a bit like Werner).

Dele did have one or two really good seasons and was decent at the world cup so while not a glamorous comparison, Havertz can still be somewhat of a success.
 
Things change in fast in football. See during market we were all envy of Chelsea getting Havertz for 60 or so millions in no time while we are struggling to get Sancho. Now he looks like an absolute flop and waste of money. Maybe it should be a lesson for us that splashing money isn't the only way to succeed?
 
UNITED ACADEMY said:
He's Dele Alli basically. Goal scoring midfielder. He won't give you a playmaking ability like Bruno, he won't control or dictate the midfield like De Jong, he is not physical player like Pogba. He's just someone who score goals and link up play like Dele Alli, take away his goals, he's nothing. At least Dele Alli was much more skillful.
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He's still too young to flag him like that, but at the moment I can't think of a better description for him.
 
el3mel said:
Things change in fast in football. See during market we were all envy of Chelsea getting Havertz for 60 or so millions in no time while we are struggling to get Sancho. Now he looks like an absolute flop and waste of money. Maybe it should be a lesson for us that splashing money isn't the only way to succeed?
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Give him some time maybe there is another lesson that it's not ideal to write off young players moving to a different league so early.
 
Too soon to write him off. Lampard needs to bench him for some game and take him off the limelight.
 
gajender said:
Give him some time maybe there is another lesson that it's not ideal to write off young players moving to a different league so early.
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The problem is, do you see from him what promises you he will come good later on?
 
el3mel said:
The problem is, do you see from him what promises you he will come good later on?
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Actually I haven't followed him at all don't know much about him either ,but he was highly rated so he must have something about him maybe he is struggling to settle it's just too early to make judgement either way.
 
I thought Harvertz will be the German KDB. From the games I watched i don't know what his good at.

I think with a better manager he may turn out to be one of the best midfielder in EPL.
 
Charlie Foley said:
Some good posts @Zehner
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I agree. I appreciate his presence in this thread.

I get the urge to defend Havertz against some of the unfair criticism in here but I have no hope of defending him or providing context better than the guy who watched him every week for years.
 
BlahRules said:
I thought Harvertz will be the German KDB. From the games I watched i don't know what his good at.

I think with a better manager he may turn out to be one of the best midfielder in EPL.
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So you don't know what he's good at, but you think he may turn out to be one of the best midfielders in the PL? How did you reach that conclusion?
 
Has he been tried as an out an out goal scorer yet for Chelsea?

I mean it's not like Chelsea exactly have one either - it might be worth it to try Havertz up top with him trying to not just score but to try interlink the wider players like Werner, Pulisic and Ziyech all together.
 
TBH I feel if he were a United, Liverpool or Arsenal player, the media would not give him the time and space that is being granted, regardless of age. United players don't get these "Ifs". Bale has been gone for almost the entire season, looking terrible when played, yet Spurs didn't get the grief that United got for signing an "older player". The media bashed the team all summer, but where are all these new signings that United were being bashed for not signing. The irony is, Havertz and Werner were the main culprits, yet they are being given a pass by the press. Yet, VDB, who hasn't actually had game time, has been thrown to the wolves with questions concerning his involvement coming every week.

Make no mistake, Havertz is young, and a pricy investement, who showed enough in his time in Leverkusen to warrant time and trust from Chelsea and their supporters. However, the general press should not be so forgiving, as they would not be towards non-City/Chelsea/Spurs players.
 
Rossa said:
But KDB has attributes that made people think he was good. You explicitly state that you don’t see that with Havertz, yet you argue he will be great.
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From the games I saw recently for Chelsea he is not showing anything. However during his time in Germany he looked like the German KDB. Do you want me to write an essay for you?
 
Havertz, like Werner, are constantly being played out of their favourite position. I am happy for both to be given time to settle once the manager decides to finally play them both central and attacking. Werner at striker and Havertz slightly behind.
 
MayosNoun said:
Havertz, like Werner, are constantly being played out of their favourite position. I am happy for both to be given time to settle once the manager decides to finally play them both central and attacking. Werner at striker and Havertz slightly behind.
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But what about Mount and Tammy?

Seriously, probably need a foreign manager or something. Lampard and Southgate’s obsession with Mount is embarrassing.
 
Mount has been great this season but Tammy is nowhere near Chelsea class. When you see Tammy it makes you dream about Giroud coming on.
 
kaiser1 said:
Have you followed Sancho this season?
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To be honest I started watching him after the lockdown and he never was very thrilling. But he apparently scored and assisted a bundle before that. It seems like you watch Bundesliga in detail, please tell me what is your opinion as you must have seen him Pre-Covid and at his apparent best
 
Who is the last German player to come to England and light up the league? I can't recall of any big names besides Mesut Ozil and look where he is now and how little he achieved at Arsenal. Leroy Sane? Promising talented young player at City but was never rated highly by Pep. Maybe Michael Ballack but even that is debatable. I don't understand why they seem to struggle in England when you consider there is hardly any climate or language barrier for them. Poldolski, Schweinsteiger have been underwhelming. Maybe that is a reason why SAF never sign German players as they for the most part are system players. SAF knows best.
 
Raredaredevil said:
Who is the last German player to come to England and light up the league? I can't recall of any big names besides Mesut Ozil and look where he is now and how little he achieved at Arsenal. Leroy Sane? Promising talented young player at City but was never rated highly by Pep. Maybe Michael Ballack but even that is debatable. I don't understand why they seem to struggle in England when you consider there is hardly any climate or language barrier for them. Poldolski, Schweinsteiger have been underwhelming. Maybe that is a reason why SAF never sign German players as they for the most part are system players. SAF knows best.
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Son Heung-min
Sane
Firmino
KDB

Edit - You meant German player itself not German league, my apologies.

Ballack
Ozil
Lehmann
Sane
Hamann
Huth
Kilnsmann
 
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Shades of Max Meyer on this one.

Looks like Bayer even upgraded on him with Florian Wirtz.

Thought it early for him to leave Bundesliga for PL.
 
Bit early to say but it's inevitable that one of all those signings were not gonna come off.....
 
Pepe is in danger of losing the most expensive premier league flop tag.

Havertz still not getting a start in a fixture packed schedule. This transfer is all based on “hope” now that there is some kind of turnaround. He’s shown absolutely nothing so far to suggest he’s got what it takes to make it in prem.

It doesn’t help that Werner is proving to be very underwhelming too.
 
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