Could Trump go 2 for 2...?
Donald Trump - All things impeachment.... | Acquitted in the Senate
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I feel more disillusioned about this than I ever felt about the dark days of the Florida "re-count". A very troubled time indeed for this country which has now moved so far away from being a model democracy that you wonder if anyone can honestly look at the United States with any kind of respect anymore. There are a lot of good people in this country and it's maddening to see how many seem to be willingly led by a gang of people who belong in charge of some narco state or dictatorship, not the United States of America.
What arguably scares me the most that even people I know who are very anti Trump just kind of shrug and say things aren't so bad, he ll be voted out. If only at least the majority of those on this side would actually pay attention to all the insane things that have been going on. Don't forget that 99% of the shit they re pulling at the agency and department head levels through the political appointees even goes mostly uncovered because the democratic state is under attack from just too many corners.
I really really wish I could be optimistic about this country in the long run. What good are the good intentions of what I do believe to be the majority of the population if its so easily manipulated into submission?
What arguably scares me the most that even people I know who are very anti Trump just kind of shrug and say things aren't so bad, he ll be voted out. If only at least the majority of those on this side would actually pay attention to all the insane things that have been going on. Don't forget that 99% of the shit they re pulling at the agency and department head levels through the political appointees even goes mostly uncovered because the democratic state is under attack from just too many corners.
I really really wish I could be optimistic about this country in the long run. What good are the good intentions of what I do believe to be the majority of the population if its so easily manipulated into submission?
And despite all of this, you have people who support the democrats who are willing to throw away their vote and vote for their favourite even if he or she doesn't become the democratic candidate.
Because the good guys are too lazy to actually put foot on the ground. As much as we dont like them the right wingers are serious about backing trump.
Remember what kennedy said?
If Dems can't show up to vote against someone like Trump - due to whatever grievance they have - then they're just as complicit as McConnell et al.
Trump won by an absolutely tiny number of votes in a few states - less than went to Jill Stein. If a fraction of a percentage of Obama/non-voters showed up, we wouldn't be in this mess.
Dems have the numbers, just need to rally together in November.
Trump won by an absolutely tiny number of votes in a few states - less than went to Jill Stein. If a fraction of a percentage of Obama/non-voters showed up, we wouldn't be in this mess.
Dems have the numbers, just need to rally together in November.
Why would they do that to get behind Biden?
Because we have to start somewhere. Rehabilitation is rarely easy and straightforward.
Nominating Biden would just prove that they learnt nothing from Hillary.
People need somebody to vote for, not just against Trump.
I agree with the first sentence. And with the second, more or less. But those with a conscience have to learn they may have to fight to keep this experiment in progress going.
I fear if we don’t vote against this tide, we will be washed over by it.
Because he's not a human dumpster fire, but a public servant that has served his country for decades, a thoroughly decent human being who has overcome great personal tragedies with grace and has a demonstrable record of furthering his country's interests?
I mean, this whole attitude is a joke to me. Trying to conflate Trump with Biden is like arguing a papercut and terminal cancer are equivalent because they're both diagnoses.
Equally getting your base massively fired up and racking up lots of votes in safe seats and winning the popular vote but loosing the electoral college would also imply nothing was learned from hillary (e.g. I think Sanders would do this)
It's a tough one because as a European Sanders does not look radical at all... But having worked in the states (albeit a few years ago) I think he would be a liability for the dems in a general election
I think Pocahontas would also do pretty badly... Mainly because she seems to struggle to come over as anything more than a technocrat and I don't think that's going to excite people either
I can see Biden doing badly as we though because he's not a great performer and I can see trump easily getting under his skin
That leaves Pete and bloomberg... Neither of which fill me with much hope but might match up better in swing states to trump and would probably do better than Biden on a debate stage
Trump must be pretty happy with How things are going right now
America has a long history of poor voter turnout. Putting the blame on non-voters is just lazy thinking and unwilling to focus on the real problems behind the issue.
- He's a right wing politician that thinks it's possible to work with this Republican Party if he gets into office. The same party that has been actively helping and enabling the current President to illegally smear his name.
- He wrote a bill which carries a lot of the blame for the current American justice system being as broken as it is, encouraging long sentences, monetization of private prisons and a disproportionate impact on minorities and the poor.
- He opposes sanctuary cities and has backed the funding of a border wall in the past.
- Historically he has voted against LGBQT rights, against homosexual inclusion in the Army and against same sex marriage.
- Historically he's spoken in favour of planned parenthood however has always voted against any sort of federal funding for it.
- He's against Medicare for All
- His foreign policy record is poor, notably his support for the Iraq war.
- He's incredibly hard line on drugs and very pro war on drugs.
- He's very pro-surveillance/anti-privacy.
- He wants to increase the defence budget.
It's not hard to see why so many on the left of the party aren't energised to vote for him, just as it's not hard to understand why so many on the right of the party show Bernie equal contempt.
But those non voters comes out for trump.
Just like the other half of non voters comes out for obama
The thing is though the people even more right than those on the right of the democratic voters are the ones that the dems need to win aren't they? (The swing votes... The Obama trump voters)
Are they not likley to have even more contempt for Bernie?
The real question seems to be will Bernie supporters hold their nose and vote for Biden or Pete or bloombeg in November or would they refuse knowing it makes a 2nd trump term much more likley
Cant recall the % but wasn't there a very low turnout in the last election? The presidential one I mean? Trump's base will vote for him no matter what he does but his base alone won't get him elected.The Dems really do need to rally behind whoever gets their nomination.Four more years of Trump is unthinkable.
4 mor3 years of trump is good though. The effect of his buffoonery will only be felt after his first 4 years.
If dem gets the presidential you can be sure trumps base will blame him for everything that comes.
Best they got 4 more years of trump to finally see what he brings, beyond any doubt.
Maybe they'll think twice every election. Otherwise the next trump will come along and we're back to square one. If jared or ivanka runs i doubt they'll lose.
The independents, Obama/Trump swing voters, aren't all "even more right" than Biden and Co. Admittedly some of them are and I'd hedge my bets that they are lost to Trump regardless of if it's Bernie or Biden which is why Biden isn't the best option if you're trying to win independent votes back. The right wing independents are lost to Trump and the left wing independents aren't going to be energised by Biden.
A lot of people who swung over to Trump did so because they saw him as an anarchist who was going to force real change in politics and make the system work for them again, he also worked on an anti-globalist anti-imperialist platform and claimed he would get American troops out of the middle east. How do you think that's working out for them?
Bernie is running on a similar populist platform albeit completely different in his message. He's anarchic, he wants to fight the establishment, he wants America to stop wasting lives and money attacking the middle east and he's pro working class.
3rd highest since the 1968 election, which was the last time it was over 60%. It was lower than 2008 (Obama's Hope) and 2004 (you either love W. or hate him).
I'm actually surprised election turnout is so low in general in the US. A few times it's been below 50%, and many times it's been below 60%. I'm used to 75-85% in Norway (more 80% than 85% lately, to be fair).
I hate Trump but he has got a lot more charisma and personality than those two, so I woud be very surprised if they got elected. In saying that, Trump is now actively and openly going to rig the election as it is clear there is no downside to doing it and the republicans will support his efforts. If he doesn't win, he is going to be in lot of legal trouble, that is an extra incentive to do it like House of Cards.
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Firstly I think judging a politician on how they voted a significantly long time ago is a bit unfair - society has evolved significantly in positions over time and he/she should be reflecting that in the way they vote.
Secondly, of course a career politician is going to have voted against your core beliefs many times over the course of several decades. Further, they probably personally disagree with a lot of positions of the majority of their party. That is the nature of having diverse opinions. Now maybe one or two or all of those positions are disqualifying for you as a voter - that's your right - but in my opinion that's only true if the alternative is better/neutral.
Given that the hypothetical alternative to candidate Biden is President Trump, I just don't see how you can feel like Biden is not worth supporting because of your list, but that it's worth engaging in any action to put back into power a man that is demonstrably worse for almost all of your grievances with Biden. Because not voting is just that.
Being fully nihilistic about the situation and therefore abdicating responsibility in my opinion means you forego your right to complain about the reality you end up in.
Is Biden great, or even good? No. Does that mean he's as bad as Trump? Of course not. And that is the only choice here. (again hypothetically, I'm personally a Warren supporter)
Who’s conflating him and Trump?
He’s a Republican in all but name and if he’s the nominee the turnout will be crap and people will again wonder why.
The problem the Democrats have is that their party is a broad church and pretty much represents and encapsulates the standard political environment of most other western countries.
Biden, Pelosi, Schumer, Clinton and co would be in the UK Conservative Party if they were UK Politicians, Clinton and Pelosi you could possibly argue would be Liberal Democrats,
Bernie, AOC, Tlaib and Omar would be in the Labour party.
Their views are that different to each other. While I absolutely agree with you that everyone should take the stance of anyone but Trump whoever gets the Democratic nomination, you can understand why Bernie Bros and Biden supporters are at war with each other.
If you're a Bernie Bro and you're campaigning for change you're going to be pretty upset when Biden says he doesn't want to change anything and will work with Republicans if he gets into power.
Equally you have to understand Biden supporters who are more conservative in their views who just want a return to boring normality and yet are faced with Bernie and his "radical" left wing politics which will definitely cause a lot of a chaos with Republicans militantly trying to stop everything he does.
Biden, Pelosi, Schumer, Clinton and co would be in the UK Conservative Party if they were UK Politicians, Clinton and Pelosi you could possibly argue would be Liberal Democrats,
Bernie, AOC, Tlaib and Omar would be in the Labour party.
Their views are that different to each other. While I absolutely agree with you that everyone should take the stance of anyone but Trump whoever gets the Democratic nomination, you can understand why Bernie Bros and Biden supporters are at war with each other.
If you're a Bernie Bro and you're campaigning for change you're going to be pretty upset when Biden says he doesn't want to change anything and will work with Republicans if he gets into power.
Equally you have to understand Biden supporters who are more conservative in their views who just want a return to boring normality and yet are faced with Bernie and his "radical" left wing politics which will definitely cause a lot of a chaos with Republicans militantly trying to stop everything he does.
Yep, and as much as people on here love to tag Eboue and give him shit about not voting for Hillary, the two party system is the problem.
Why should people cast a vote for somebody they can’t stand just because someone possibly worse is running for the other party?
The US political system is broken beyond repair.
Both parties are dealing with entrenched network homophily, which means centrists are not likely to fare well in terms of either getting elected to national office or working with other moderates from across the aisle. Just look at how the GOP have collapsed from a largely establishmentarian party until 2009, into a rogues gallery of idiocy beginning with the Tea Party, which eventually dovetailed into Trumpism and the clown who leads it.
Now that Trump has taken over, there's no room for dissent and the fact that he controls right wing media, means his public will always vote for him in high numbers. The Dems are now on the cusp of balancing what the Republicans have been doing for a decade - more populism, less establishmentarianism, less interest in working across the aisle, and more in seizing power to affect structural change.
This is why imo, Biden will have a tough slog ahead if he thinks he can cruise to the nomination. The conditions for a return to the old are rapidly being replaced by a need to break the political logjam that both parties have been locked in for decades.
To be fair I still think it's a pretty self immolating position to take to not vote for the least worst.
The Republican Party is that far right because Republican members and politicians have done all they can to drag the party to the right over the last 40 years.
If you want to America to change, you're not going to have any impact wearing a Che t-shirt and voting for a protest party that picks up 3% of the vote and no seats, that just plays into the Republican hands.
You're more likely to have see something close to the change you want if you vote for the party furthest left, even if that's centre right, to you and put your protest energy into dragging them closer to the left like Bernie and AOC are doing.
Ironic change of thread title just as this turned into the election thread 
But incrementalism has shown to not work, and voting for the slightly less shit option isn’t something that is going to encourage people to get behind you even reluctantly.
I can understand both points of view to be honest, but the pragmatic “lesser of two evils” approach has already failed so if the dems want to success they need to embrace the true left of the party and start playing the Republicans at their own game rather than trying to take the high road all the time.
Ironic change of thread title just as this turned into the election thread
fair point, apologiesI hope they do. People need to suck this one up. Concentrate on the long game because it will be easier to get to something like an AOC presidency with a one term Biden than a two term trump. Not everyone will get their perfect candidate but keep in mind that RGB has probably very little time left on the court so it's things like these that everyone should consider.
You would have to be fecking delusional to think Warren or Bernie will just stroll in and implement their agenda with out a fight. Or that Biden and Pete will suddenly start hosting policy dinners with the Republicans. An emboldened 2nd term trump will wreak havoc, of that their is no doubt. One political party craves a dictatorship, lawlessness and boots on the neck of anyone that doesn't look, think or love like them. Don't abandon the other political party just because they have another direction to a collective goal that we can all agree with. The Dems are fecking pussies, that's obvious but it's easier to push and pull a progressive agenda if you are in power.
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Ironic change of thread title just as this turned into the election thread
Sorry about that.You should be looking at this as an opportunity to better understand the electorate and why we are in this position, to begin with. Not telling voters to suck it up.
We've all learned lessons from 16 where we got trump. This guy got through on the slimist of margins so don't make out like it was a fecking landslide. Outside of rich people, fools and bigots nobody has benefited from this presidency. So feel free to debate 2016 again, trump would love that.
What exactly did you learn? stick another uninspiring jazzman on the ticket and hope everyone shows up to vote for him?
I learned that you do everything you can to stop a person like trump. What will trump offer you specifically that an "uninspiring jazzman" cant?
Trump will win. Guaranteed.
The economy, immigration, gun control and abortion dictate the election. As much as I love Bernie I think if he gets the nomination it will compell as many to come out and vote against him as for him.
The economy, immigration, gun control and abortion dictate the election. As much as I love Bernie I think if he gets the nomination it will compell as many to come out and vote against him as for him.
What does that even mean?
Exactly what it says.
Answer the question.
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