Yes but even when he did the spectacular things he was dropped, you don't bring in a 30 million striker and drop him unless he's ****ping. For Sir Alex there was no hance in hell thathe was going to drop his mega signing for Tevez anytime soon untill it was too late. He understood what was going on and I'm pretty sure we all did too, and stats don't change that for me. Tevez was not going to be first choice with Wayne no mttr what he did untill Berba's dire performances had Sir Alex thinking.
Dimitar Berbatov | 2009/10 Performances
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Yes but even when he did the spectacular things he was dropped, you don't bring in a 30 million striker and drop him unless he's ****ping. For Sir Alex there was no hance in hell thathe was going to drop his mega signing for Tevez anytime soon untill it was too late. He understood what was going on and I'm pretty sure we all did too, and stats don't change that for me. Tevez was not going to be first choice with Wayne no mttr what he did untill Berba's dire performances had Sir Alex thinking.
I agree that they both could've been part of the squad and worked well. However, blaming it all on Tevez though is a little bit blind and silly.
If Tevez was on a 4 year permanent deal then I'm sure he would've fancied "trying to change SAF's mind about him being the third wheel to the Rooney-Berba partnership", but he wasn't, Tevez had a very uncertain future. SAF believes that Tevez made up his mind around January, I think so too, that wasn't long after the 4 goal haul vs. Blackburn. When no offer is forecoming and you see yourself relegated to third choice, even after a 4-goal haul, it's not a strange thing to start worrying about your future and look elsewhere.
As for that last line, no-one expects Berbatov to play anything like Tevez, why do people keep spouting that rubbish??
What most fans want it Berbatov to show up and change games when it matters, Chelsea and Blackburn last week were perfect opportunities and once again he couldn't deliver.
If we shouldn't expect more from our forward then we are not Manchester United.
They've scored more goals than the Tevez/Rooney partnership did.
We tried to sign Tevez, it wasn't either/or.
Tevez's best league total for us was 14, Berbatov has 12 this year.
That is a great post Brophs mate.
His first season he started 4 games against the big 4 and scored 1 and assisted 2 (possibly 3 depends) which isn't bad.
In Tevez's first season he didn't start in any of the final 3 games against the big 4, I don't know why he missed 1 of the games but he came on as sub in 2. Not even sure if that is relevant to anything but I found it odd when I noticed it and it seems to contradict the "Berbatov replaced Tevez" in the big games argument.
Why some people want to ignore this is beyond me. Perhaps they just hate to admit that SAF possibly made a mistake?
Jesus fellas, he made a mistake with Jaap Stam too, but in the end we got over it and we kept winning. The same will happen here, there's no need to bend the truth just to try and save Fergie's blushes.
Elaborate on those stats - how many of the 14 and of the 12 were vital/matchwinning goals?
Genuine question - I'm just too busy (or lazy) to do it.
Oh dear, you got this all wrong.
No-one thinks "Berbatov replaced Tevez" in the big games. In his first season Tevez was in the same position as Berba, as second choice striker, meaning that in a 4-5-1 with everyone fit, Carlos was benched, just like Berba is now.
All Berbatov did was relegate Tevez from second choice to third choice.
How we was dropped after this game musthave baffled him, his confidence must have taken a battering, just like he was dropped after scoring at Anfield.
He performed well. But what does that have to do taking up an option that was active for the better part of another year? It seems to me that by the end of that season we were really struggling for strikers. Did it make sense to secure one we had contracted for another year, with an option to buy him at the end of it, or to boost the squad by bringing in another player? The latter, for me.
It's becoming a question of sematics now. The argument seems to be that if you're not a success then you're a failure. But he's made a sizeable contribution to our success of the last couple of years, albeit not enough in terms of his ability.
What myth? Did he or did he not have bad peformances in his last season? Regardless of being third choice. If anything, that should have spurred him on to do more. But while he was good at times, he wasn't anywhere near his first season in terms of level of performances.
I agree. He has had more moments in big games than Berbatov. But contributions aren't measured solely in terms of what you do in big games. But they're different players. I thought Tevez was good in his first season, and his knack for scoring big goals was fantastic. I think Berbatov has been good this season, but he hasn't done it in big games. Again, how you measure their performances over a season against each other is difficult.
No he wasn't. He was good, and he scored some incredibly important goals, He wasn't brilliant in the sense of his overall performances, but he was showing signs that he'd be (and was) a very big player for us. The following season I'd agree that he started the season on fire, and was probably unfairly dropped. But from that point on, he wasn't good enough by his standards, and he made it quite clear that he didn't relish the competition for his place. The examples you mentioned have nothing to do with this, as they involve a manager wanting players out, rather than the player deciding he'd had enough of his manager. As I've said, he had a straight choice between staying on and backing himself to play his way back into SAF's first team, or to leave. It's a poor reflection on him that he chose that letter.
Did we really try that hard? I doubt it.
Why did we wait until the loan was up then? Why did SAF say the following:
The bit in bold tells you that we didn't even meet the asking price that we'd agreed in the initial deal. And judging by Fergie's comments I can't imagine he did everything in his power to keep him.
See my post above which quotes SAF, he did not have any choice, we made a derisory offer for his services that MSI probably laughed at and Tevez was probably devastated about, and this after a year of screwing him around.
Now don't deny the screwing around part, dress it up anyway you like but being dropped after scoring at Anfield and dropped again after scoring 4 in a game IS being screwed around.
How people just blind themselves and spout nonsense like "he had a choice" is beyond me. Stop trying to bend the truth.
Dropped after his motm performance against Fulham too
It's obviously escaped your attention that he played in midfield in the Nou Camp? But yeah, he was really good in both legs, from memory.
But if you're suggesting that there weren't bad performances then there's no point in discussing it.
And for what it's worth, I'm not trying to paint Berbatov as a success. Or Tevez as a failure. I'm just repsonding to what you lot have written in this thread. I'd be only too delighted if Berbatov could be judged without reference to Tevez, but it seems that on here at least, that isn't going to happen.
He was dropped a few times and that gives him the right to spit the dummy?
The rest is speculation. You don't know what offer was made, and how Tevez might or might not have felt about it.
Tevez was made an offer. He could have stayed. That's having a choice by any definition.
But he was crap all year
Don't you understand the difference between saying his performances for the entire season were below that standards he'd set (which obviously will include some many good performances) , and picking out isolated examples to prove that he wasn't crap all year (which I haven't said, at any point).
ha ha, you really are struggling with this.
If we make an offer to Fernando Torres does he have a choice? nope, because he doesn't own himself. Same went for Tevez, MSI had to accept any offer in order for him to have a choice.
I know that we didn't offer the full amount, I just quoted SAF ffs
Dude couldn't win though, Tevez needs a run of games to show his best form and when he did do his thing he was ditched anyway and made to warm up and clap the fans without ever actually come on in big games. He missed some fantastic night against Inter where it was thought Berba was injured in the warm up, against Chelsea at home and away,the fans felt sorry for him, because unlike people who look at stats all day it was pretty obvious what was going on.
Brophs, do you play football?
How would you feel and what state would your confidence be in if everytime you got a chance to play and took it with both hands it still wasn't enough?
What some people including yourself have probably forgot is that most of the times when Tevez played poorly, he was only in the team because we were resting players and he was not playing with what you would describe as first choice.
Perfectly summed up Boss.
I'm sure the same fans are some of the ones slagging him off now, they just don't want to admit that SAF made a mistake. It's easier to slag off a bitter.
ha ha, you really are struggling with this.
If we make an offer to Fernando Torres does he have a choice? nope, because he doesn't own himself. Same went for Tevez, MSI had to accept any offer in order for him to have a choice.
I know that we didn't offer the full amount, I just quoted SAF ffs
Tevez leaving United - Manchester United Official Web Site
Yeah, I do.
I'd be gutted. But Tevez didn't take his chance with both hands 'every time' he got a chance. I've said all along that he was hard done by at times, but not to the extent you lot want to believe.
The last paragraph is just nonsense. I'm off out of this thread. Enjoy.
Well I worked out his rate of getting the first goal in a game yesterday and it was over 40% while Rooney's was around 45%. Tevez has opened the scoring this year 6 times for City to Berbatov's 5. I only looked at it that way because we usually win games when we score first so I'd say that it's important us. Too much effort to work out matchwinning.
Last season Berbatov started 4/6 big games, Tevez 3/6 not a great difference there.
In general appearances over the season Tevez made a lot.
A quote from Gill. We waited until the loan was up probably for many reasons, Tevez wasn't great in his second season, he was fat, we didn't want to buy him, we're in £700m of debt, uncertainty over Ronaldo, MSI trying to flog him to the highest bidder. There are loads of reasons why
Why would Sir Alex make that offer if he didn't rate him? Everything just seems to contradict when it comes to this topic.
Sir Alex – Tevez not worth £25M | Manchester United Blog - Man Utd Talk
So why on earth would we make an offer if it's not believed that he was worth it, it just doesn't add up
I don't know, in short. That'd be a question for Fergie. Perhaps he hadn't anticipated Ronaldo leaving, and didn't want to lose another big player, though he might have though the price was inflated. The whole thing's odd, but it's all there in black and white, albeit it's open to interpretation.
Fail.
We had a signed agreement for 25m, nothing to do with being a highest bidder. In his own words, SAF said Tevez wasn't worth 25m, so why on earth would he offer it? Answer: He wouldn't/didn't
Maybe no offer was actually made? If I know Sir Alex from his actions, he wouldn't make an offer for somebody who he doesn't think is worth it. Look at Benzema and 'no value in the market' it just doesn't add up, not at all. It's fishier than my Punani thread in the general, to be honest, us as fans are always kept speculating and always will be.
ha ha, my dog knew Ronaldo was leaving!
The price wasn't inflated, we agreed it 2 years earlier in the loan agreement. It was 25m as agreed by both parties.
SAF didn't want him, simples.
It's the only explanation that makes sense, why on earth would Sir Alex offer the man a contract when he firmly thinks he's not worth it?
But come one Brophs, doing it "every time" aint easy, he's not Jesus. He did it enough times to be given a start in the next game, it never came. I don't "want to believe" anything, I'm actually showing you occassions where he earnt his shirt for the following game but didn't get it. What are you showing me? your opinion only, therefore I suggest that it is yourself who "wants to believe".
Carlos Tevez 'not worth £25 million' says Man Utd manager Sir Alex Ferguson - Telegraph
So why does our website report we made an offer of 25 mil? What against the wishes of Sir Alex?
So why does our website report we made an offer of 25 mil? What against the wishes of Sir Alex?
No not at all fail.
We agreed a fee of £25m, we offered a fee of £25m. It was in MSI's best interest for Tevez to move to City, if we'd heard Tevez was talking to City or other clubs and that MSI were pushing him to those moves then it could have made our interest wane. But then I'm just making stuff up like you are.
Counter link at the ready, I can enjoy my lunch now. Did we reallllllly though? The quotes of Sir Alex suggest nothing of the sort!
We did not offer 25m, unless of course SAF offered 25m for someone who he said wasn't worth 25m?'
"We were happy to do the deal on the right terms, but he wasn't worth 25m".
How many times must I explain this?
We did not offer 25m, unless of course SAF offered 25m for someone who he said wasn't worth 25m?'
"We were happy to do the deal on the right terms, but he wasn't worth 25m".
How many times must I explain this?
Honestly, jeeeez
We did not offer 25m, unless of course SAF offered 25m for someone who he said wasn't worth 25m?'
"We were happy to do the deal on the right terms, but he wasn't worth 25m".
How many times must I explain this?
So Ferguson says he wasn't worth £25m but doesn't categorically state that we didn't make a bid of that amount.
The club officially announces that it did meet the asking price.
See the difference, one is implication and one is an actual claim. Just like me though neither of you know what really happened but you've chosen to side with Tevez and me United. Each to their own.
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