Dimitar Berbatov | 2009/10 Performances

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The mighty Wolfsburg?

Kinell.

And comparing Berbatov with Zidane, frankly, one of the best players in his generation is beyond absurd.
 
datura said:
For ffs are you thick? Anyone can pick out a select game where one player was particularly tried hard - think back to the Wolfsburg at home where Berbatov turned it round when he replaced Owen.

He tries, the stats of distance covered show that. He may not charge around the pitch at the speed of a Tevez etc but he does generally work pretty hard (and made a noticeable effort to close down this season) and looks to be available for the ball at most times. You can criticise his demeanour and attitude if you want, but there is no doubt that he tries.
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He may cover alot of distance but he uses his engergy in the wrong way in my opinon. I think we are talking about two different things here, my definition of 'trier' is somebody who is constantly working hard to be involved in the game, when they pass the ball out they are sprinting to make themselves available. That's the difference with Berbatov, he would spread the ball and he would jog casually, which ultimately means he's getting less touches and his ability to influence the match dwindles.

Berbatov was good against Wolfsberg


But if I remember clearly, he dissapeared for much of the game after his initial 15 minuites which I believe is through his fault. I don't think Berbatov does make himself available enough. Look at the game vs Chelsea where he would stroll around the back line instead of making runs so our midfielders can pick him out. He only really did that once, this is a key reason why he dissapears for the majority of games.

You're acting like Berbatov was constantly involved against Wolfsberg, he really wasn't, watch the 90 again and he wasn't present for large periods of the game. If you're comparing that with how the players I've mentioned constantly make themselves available to receive the ball on a regular basis, then you're having a bubble.
 
I wouldn't put it past Cafites to try and debate that particular topic (Zidane vs Berbatov), as if there was any to be had

Datura, these distance covered stats are a load of toss to be honest. It's all about the moments where the midfielders have the ball, and are looking for options and movement ahead of them. He just doesn't make himself as available as you claim, and it makes the midfielders look back because they have no outlet
 
B Cantona said:
I wouldn't put it past Cafites to try and debate that particular topic, as if there was any to be had

Datura, these distance covered stats are a load of toss to be honest. It's all about the moments where the midfielders have the ball, and are looking for options and movement ahead of them. He just doesn't make himself as available as you claim, and it makes the midfielders look back because they have no outlet
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Agreed
 
B Cantona said:
Datura, these distance covered stats are a load of toss to be honest. It's all about the moments where the midfielders have the ball, and are looking for options and movement ahead of them. He just doesn't make himself as available as you claim, and it makes the midfielders look back because they have no outlet
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I know, but to say he doesn't try is bollocks. If you're going to be critical, which everyone is entitled, at least be accurate.
 
B Cantona said:
I wouldn't put it past Cafites to try and debate that particular topic (Zidane vs Berbatov), as if there was any to be had

Datura, these distance covered stats are a load of toss to be honest. It's all about the moments where the midfielders have the ball, and are looking for options and movement ahead of them. He just doesn't make himself as available as you claim, and it makes the midfielders look back because they have no outlet
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Me neither.

Predictably enough it was picked up by the usual suspects as another angle to slag Berbatov off, despite nobody actually trying to claim he was as good as Zidane.
 
datura said:
I know, but to say he doesn't try is bollocks. If you're going to be critical, which everyone is entitled, at least be accurate.
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He doesn't try enough to make himself available, he spreads the ball and admires his own work instead of busting a gut to make himself available, if he does run more than anybody then he's using his energy all wrong.
 
B Cantona said:
I wouldn't put it past Cafites to try and debate that particular topic (Zidane vs Berbatov), as if there was any to be had

Datura, these distance covered stats are a load of toss to be honest. It's all about the moments where the midfielders have the ball, and are looking for options and movement ahead of them. He just doesn't make himself as available as you claim, and it makes the midfielders look back because they have no outlet
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It's stupidity to make the comparison and it's sheer stupidity to debate it. One was worth the millions spent on him, the other isn't. One was a matchwinner and the best player in the world and the other is Dimitar Berbatov.

The one who should have got away... :(
 
Boss said:
He may cover alot of distance but he uses his engergy in the wrong way in my opinon. I think we are talking about two different things here, my definition of 'trier' is somebody who is constantly working hard to be involved in the game, when they pass the ball out they are sprinting to make themselves available. That's the difference with Berbatov, he would spread the ball and he would jog casually, which ultimately means he's getting less touches and his ability to influence the match dwindles.

Berbatov was good against Wolfsberg


But if I remember clearly, he dissapeared for much of the game after his initial 15 minuites which I believe is through his fault. I don't think Berbatov does make himself available enough. Look at the game vs Chelsea where he would stroll around the back line instead of making runs so our midfielders can pick him out. He only really did that once, this is a key reason why he dissapears for the majority of games.

You're acting like Berbatov was constantly involved against Wolfsberg, he really wasn't, watch the 90 again and he wasn't present for large periods of the game. If you're comparing that with how the players I've mentioned constantly make themselves available to receive the ball on a regular basis, then you're having a bubble.
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You're comparing completely different types of players though, which is the point. If you'd watched Spurs much before he joined us you knew what you were getting - an enigmatic player capable of moments of inspiration to win games and a decent strike rate. He has changed his game a bit, but a player of 27 isn't going to dramatically change his style even to adapt to a new team.
 
datura said:
You're comparing completely different types of players though, which is the point. If you'd watched Spurs much before he joined us you knew what you were getting - an enigmatic player capable of moments of inspiration to win games and a decent strike rate. He has changed his game a bit, but a player of 27 isn't going to dramatically change his style even to adapt to a new team.
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Again it really doesn't matter what he did for Spurs. It's useless in this context because he's shown he's no wear near mentally to what he was at Spurs. Can't remember who said it but they made a good point when they said at Spurs Berbatov was judged game by game, but at United he's judged minute by minute. It's completely true that he is assessed far heavily than when he was at Spurs, he is also paid more so that goes hand in hand.

It's a bit dismal that his shining light performance against Wolfsburg still falls short of anything he showed at Spurs.
 
Sunny Jim said:
you know what difference between Berbatov and Rooney is? when Rooney gets the ball he already faces the opponent's goal. When Bebrbatov gets the ball he faces his own midfield.
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We should let Fergie know about this, all he needs to do is turn Berbatov around and we've got a second Rooney! It'll save us millions!
 
interesting debate on "united in press" at the moment syaing that Berba plays at this best when with a partner. Given the preference for the one man up top this season when ever Rooney has been fit it has meant that Berba can only play when Rooney is injured and hence on his own or with a.n. other partner, a.n. would have been Owen this season but after his injury this has stifled Berbas opportunities.

Maybe Chico is arriving as the foil to Berba to give us an alternative to Rooney's 451/433?
 
friendlytramp said:
interesting debate on "united in press" at the moment syaing that Berba plays at this best when with a partner. Given the preference for the one man up top this season when ever Rooney has been fit it has meant that Berba can only play when Rooney is injured and hence on his own or with a.n. other partner, a.n. would have been Owen this season but after his injury this has stifled Berbas opportunities.

Maybe Chico is arriving as the foil to Berba to give us an alternative to Rooney's 451/433?
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We haven't just played 4-5-1 whenever Rooney has been fit, played 4-4-2 quite regularly. It's just in the big games where Ferguson doesn't think Berbatov will be that effective/the midfield isn't good enough where he plays the lone striker.
 
if you take the transfer fee out of the equation , berba is a very good player
we have had 3-4 good striker at united at all times
with owen injured (if you consider him to be a good striker) , we have just 2 at the moment

berba is better when playing with someone .. get another one in (javier?)
berbatov is definitely good enough for united .. just have realistic expectations

he probably isnt what people expected for 30m , but if you are going to hold anyone responsible for that , it'd be fergie and not berbatov
we wont get 30m back for him , so there should be no talk of selling him
he is our player and i hope it stays that way .

play him in a 4-4-2 (kiko isnt ready, so yesterday doesnt count) and he wont disappoint
 
prateik said:
if you take the transfer fee out of the equation , berba is a very good player
we have had 3-4 good striker at united at all times
with owen injured (if you consider him to be a good striker) , we have just 2 at the moment

berba is better when playing with someone .. get another one in (javier?)
berbatov is definitely good enough for united .. just have realistic expectations

he probably isnt what people expected for 30m , but if you are going to hold anyone responsible for that , it'd be fergie and not berbatov
we wont get 30m back for him , so there should be no talk of selling him
he is our player and i hope it stays that way .

play him in a 4-4-2 (kiko isnt ready, so yesterday doesnt count) and he wont disappoint
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Pretty good summary that.
 
prateik said:
if you take the transfer fee out of the equation , berba is a very good player
we have had 3-4 good striker at united at all times
with owen injured (if you consider him to be a good striker) , we have just 2 at the moment

berba is better when playing with someone .. get another one in (javier?)
berbatov is definitely good enough for united .. just have realistic expectations

he probably isnt what people expected for 30m , but if you are going to hold anyone responsible for that , it'd be fergie and not berbatov
we wont get 30m back for him , so there should be no talk of selling him
he is our player and i hope it stays that way .

play him in a 4-4-2 (kiko isnt ready, so yesterday doesnt count) and he wont disappoint
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Will all this change the attitude problem he had at Blackburn?
 
Berbatov is a great player but seeing him drop to the midfield constantly is frustrating. We need a no nonesense striker that can stay in the box and look for goals when Rooney is out.

Our wingers are deadly and can beat their men and get crosses in. Therefore we need strikers in the box. Berbatov doesnt do this.

Swap Berba for Modric and buy some experienced and healthy striker in his prime that can feed off the fantastic service provided by our wingers. Bent? Anyone?
 
In my mind it is simple;

Berbatov can only play in a 4-4-2, or with a strike partner of some sort. He cannot play as a lone striker.

The problem here is that our midfield isnt strong enough to support a 4-4-2 at present. Fletcher and Hargreaves could probably just about do the job, but they would lack creativity. We havent got good/complete enough midfielders to pull off a 2-man midfield, meaning we cant feasibly play with 2 strikers.

Ergo, Berbatov simply doesnt fit into our system.
 
Walrus said:
In my mind it is simple;

Berbatov can only play in a 4-4-2, or with a strike partner of some sort. He cannot play as a lone striker.

The problem here is that our midfield isnt strong enough to support a 4-4-2 at present. Fletcher and Hargreaves could probably just about do the job, but they would lack creativity. We havent got good/complete enough midfielders to pull off a 2-man midfield, meaning we cant feasibly play with 2 strikers.

Ergo, Berbatov simply doesnt fit into our system.
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Furthermore if we really have to adjust to 4-4-2 to accommodate Berbatov, we'd only have three out of 4 putting the effort in, rather than 4 out of 4 if Rooney plays up front with three CMs behind him. Whichever way you try to accommodate Berbatov it is to the detriment of the team, except against the much weaker sides
 
Walrus said:
In my mind it is simple;

Berbatov can only play in a 4-4-2, or with a strike partner of some sort. He cannot play as a lone striker.

The problem here is that our midfield isnt strong enough to support a 4-4-2 at present. Fletcher and Hargreaves could probably just about do the job, but they would lack creativity. We havent got good/complete enough midfielders to pull off a 2-man midfield, meaning we cant feasibly play with 2 strikers.

Ergo, Berbatov simply doesnt fit into our system.
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That highlights a midfield problem that needs addressing.

Ergo, we need some improvement in the midfield.
 
Red Defence said:
That highlights a midfield problem that needs addressing.

Ergo, we need some improvement in the midfield.
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It's the same stuff over and over again.

Everyone plays 4-5-1 in the big matches, and we would have to play the same or else get overran.

So even if we got a top class midfielder, the formation when it comes down to it would still be 4-5-1 and not 4-4-2, so Berbatov would be in the same position, i.e. a definite against the weaker sides, and never play a big match unless the main man is injured or suspended.
 
Red Defence said:
That highlights a midfield problem that needs addressing.

Ergo, we need some improvement in the midfield.
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Also true, but realistically most big teams now play a 4-5-1 or 4-3-3 of some sort. Very few will play with two out-and-out strikers, because the battle for midfield is so important, and even the best CMs in a 4-4-2 are unlikely to be able to match up against a 3-man midfield.

I can see Berbatov playing well as a lone striker for a team like Arsenal, who like to play possession football, keep passing it around and unlock the opponents. We play at a much faster tempo, and need our striker to be in goalscoring positions.

If we are to have a striker who drops deep (like Rooney used to do on a more regular basis) they need to have the energy and workrate to get forward again and make themselves available in or around the opponents penalty area. Berbatov simply doesnt do this - he will drop deep and stay deep, maybe walking back up normally behind the midfielders.
Perhaps if we had fit, first choice midfielders with lots of energy who could attack the box and score some goals themselves - but our CMs dont tend to do this (Fletcher has the energy but isnt really a goal threat, ditto Anderson), they are playmakers. Result is that we dont have any real goal threat - and this has been highlighted when Rooney hasnt played.


Personally, I wouldnt be opposed to simply sticking Berbatov in midfield alongside Carrick and Fletcher. To use FM terms - Carrick would be the deep lying playmaker, Fletcher the box-to-box and Berbatov the advanced playmaker. That in a 4-5-1 with Rooney up top would be a viable formation for me at least.


The issue remains however, we are reliant on Rooney. We need another striker who we can trust to get some goals and provide a genuine goal threat consistently from game to game. Macheda, Owen and Hernandez will hopefully be able to deputize for Rooney next season in this sense.
 
The 4-5-1 is more about it getting more from Rooney than anything else, I mean for two games Bayern Munich set up 4-4-2 against our 3 man midfield, no one can tell me our midfield is so poor it couldn't go two gainst two if Fergie had wanted that.
 
Commadus said:
If you want to play 4-4-2 effectively against a 4/3/3 or 4-5-1 you will need to play two defensive midfielders like Liverpool play -who lack the creativity but make it up with hard work when disadvantaged 2 to 3.

This would mean buying 2 defensive midfielders - we can't assume Hargo will be back and Fletcher is not a defensive midfieler and neither is Carrick.

So to get the best out of Berba would require further investment also its not even guaranteed he will perform. To me its clutching at straws.

Also factor in the following with Berba deep and having 2 defensive midfielers who apart from the main striker will be in the box?

Bayern played 4-4-1-1 - Muller was adept at dropping deep and helping out the midfield and also getting into attack - he is young and mobile something that we can't say about Berba not that he is old but his movement is not great.
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If Fletcher and Carrick arent defensive midfielders, then neither is Van Bommel. All of them go box to box, although you could ask them to play a restricted role.

Bayern's other starting central midfielder is Bastien Sweinsteiger (sp?), formerly a wide midfielder/winger. He's not a defensive midfielder either. Neither is Lucas a specific defensive midfielder. In Brazil he won player of the year thanks to his runs and goals from midfield.

So no, you dont need to have 2 defensive midfielders. Just 2 players who can defend and keep the ball well. Sometimes ours have failed to achieve both of those parts in the same game.

If you dont keep the ball well its hard to attack teams properly and you invite pressure back on your own defence. If you dont help defend well the opposition can outnumber you in their attacks when they get men forward.
 
Name Changed said:
It's the same stuff over and over again.

Everyone plays 4-5-1 in the big matches, and we would have to play the same or else get overran.

So even if we got a top class midfielder, the formation when it comes down to it would still be 4-5-1 and not 4-4-2, so Berbatov would be in the same position, i.e. a definite against the weaker sides, and never play a big match unless the main man is injured or suspended.
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But he'd perform way better with real energy playing behind him and supporting him from deep and wide. As we've seen in glimpses in matches like the Bolton and Spurs games away. So as said earlier, the midfield needs investing in.

If we can't get in a new Scholes we should at least get in a more naturally skillful Version of Fletcher and maybe a wide playmaker too.
 
The problem with Berbatov is not that he's got no class (when he clearly does), but that he simply does not fit our system. Rooney is not Robbie Keane, and that stifles him and stifles us. If we could get in another striker (and by God do we need more class strikers) then perhaps we could bring in a foil for Berbatov that would allow him to play to his potential. Even then, however, I fear his style of play just doesn't suit the "United" style (that is, quick attacks and counter-attacks), or that he'll still only be effective when Rooney is out of the team.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
But he'd perform way better with real energy playing behind him and supporting him from deep and wide. As we've seen in glimpses in matches like the Bolton and Spurs games away. So as said earlier, the midfield needs investing in.

If we can't get in a new Scholes we should at least get in a more naturally skillful Version of Fletcher and maybe a wide playmaker too.
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We'd hope that he'd perform better. I'm not sure if he would though. The fact remains that it will still be a 4-5-1 formation when it matters and he won't play unless Rooney is injured.

Plus, we're not going to improve that much on what we have in the middle. If we can get someone to replace Scholes, fair enough, but there simply aren't that many players around.

A quick question. Can Berbatov only improve drastically if we bring in another top class midfielder. I'm not being smart, but he shouldn't need someone else, considering what he did at Spurs with a really weak midfield. If he can do it there, he can do it for us. The quality is there, but we are not getting the best out of him.
 
"any bids of around £20million this summer could tempt United to sell and give Fergie room to bring in a better striker"

Tempt? I'd carry him to the buying club by piggy back!

Sounds like your classic 'we have no decent story so let's make something up today' article from the Mirror to be honest
 
The Sun are carrying the story as well, I guess at the very least there is some meeting planned for tomorrow to discuss summer business plans.
 
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