Dimitar Berbatov | 2009/10 Performances

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Well he was at fault for persevering for so long though.

Stubbornness or misguided loyalty?

TBF With Veron he was right to persevere. For in 2003, when it worked in more than one comp it was awesome. & after all he had bought Veron mainly for Europe where it was working. However when REAL kicked us out, there was really no need to keep on persevering.


For the Berbatov situation right now, the dramatic loss of form of the team in terms of ball use, and especially the midfield's collective loss of form, is helping SAF little. It easy to see why SAF is using Berbatov deeper right now. But it's only exasperating the situation of the team unfortunately.

Greatest manager ever, but Fergie isn't infallible. Not quite anyway.

Indeed.

 

[Red Defence]

You should consider requesting a change to your username to Berba_Defence because you've come up with many differing and sometimes contradictory reasons (first our midfield was poor, then when someone points out our midfield controlled the match it was Berbatov who helped them) to defend Berbatov.

Flawless - you'll be able to show me these differing reaons and contradictory facts won't you. Thanks.

Come on then....show me where I said the midfield was poor.

C'mon FThaw.....shape yourself lad.....it's been an hour now and you still haven't managed to show me these contradictory statements of mine or where I said that the midfield was poor. Get on it as a priority now and learn to back up your statements of fact.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

How the feck do you know what Ferguson believes?

From what he has said himself you bufoon. Go read up his comments after the first leg of the Bayern Munich tie. For starters, Bitch

Same shite as always with you - you post based on what you think other people think. Sound logic there.

I see once again your stupid mind has mixed you with other people. You need to look in the mirror long and hard.

 

[esmufc07]

Well he was at fault for persevering for so long though.

Stubbornness or misguided loyalty?

Greatest manager ever, but Fergie isn't infallible. Not quite anyway.

Veron was always great in Europe for us, so that's probably why Fergie persisted with him. If he could reproduce his form in Europe for us in the league he would have gone down as one of Fergie's great signings.

Shame it never worked out.

 

[Dans]

From what he has said himself you bufoon. Go read up his comments after the first leg of the Bayern Munich tie. For starters, Bitch

I see once again your stupoid mind has mixed you with other people. You need to look in the mirror long and hard.

Bitch?

This gets better.

Fool!

 

[Livvie]

TBF With Veron he was right to persevere. For in 2003, when it worked in more than one comp it was awesome. & after all he had bought Veron mainly for Europe where it was working. However when REAL kicked us out, there was really no need to keep on persevering.

You could count Veron's great games without using your toes.

It was never right to persevere because it never worked on anything near a consistent level.

It would have been right if it paid off.

 

[FlawlessThaw]

C'mon FThaw.....shape yourself lad.....it's been an hour now and you still haven't managed to show me these contradictory statements of mine or where I said that the midfield was poor. Get on it as a priority now and learn to back up your statements of fact.

I just checked your last ten messages and couldn't find anything. So I guess I was wrong (but I may have confused you with another poster more likely Red Dreams or someone else). Anyway we all make mistakes like you assuming the climate in South Africa would be bad for England.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

No blame no responsibility route then. I suppose that fits in with your outlook.

You wish. Unlike you I don't blame players for following their managers instruction. I blame them for what they do wrong on their on.

When Macheda was on today Berbatov was clearly under instruction to play deep. When he was taken off that wasn't the case. It's the team as whole that played too deep. SAF even tried to change it and failed. When it finally got through to the team that they'd been too deep it was too little to late.

Our team passed the ball well on Wednesday before the sending off and we have not all of a sudden had a break down or lost our passing ability.

The only reason we passed it well was having Rooney in the line up galvansied us. In the second half our passing was as bad as it was in Munich all game, vs Chelsea last weekend and today. Even before the sending off.

We had more of the possession than Chelsea. So I don't know where you gleaned that from.

So what if we had more of the possession. We had LOADS of it today? Did we look like we could do anything with it? Even if in first half when the likes of Berba and Nani were at the very least functioning?

Our passing as a team has been plain poor. We've not been using the ball any where near as good as we can for most of the last 3 games.

 

[Ekeke]

You could count Veron's great games without using your toes.

It was never right to persevere because it never worked on anything near a consistent level.

It would have been right if it paid off.

It was fine because it was the right way around. Veron was one of our best players on each big european tie, but usually not good enough in the league. Well, we have different tactics and personnel for european matches. And those matches are far fewer, the opposition tending to be harder, than the league teams.

Veron was almost like Park - You wanted him in the team on european nights not just against easy teams, but even more-so against the harder teams. And if we had managed to win the champions league in his time at the club, he'd have been a big part of it you feel. Park hasnt made himself a consistant starter for league matches though. At least not this season, despite playing better than last season. Same with Veron... But then he was up against Keane and Scholes at their best, while Park is competing for a place with Valencia and Nani who arent close to their peak years yet.

 

[Number7]

Any chance of a Poll re Berbatovs future with us?

 

[VoetbalWizard]

veron is a different animal. in post 2006 united, veron would be top class in our midfield 3. veron is at a different planet to the bulgarian when it comes to talent. veron truly didn't fit the system and english football wasn't his cup of tea, however the bulgarian suffers from far worse as he's been 'premiership proven'....he just doesn't have the bollocks to wear the shirt.

 

[Livvie]

It was fine because it was the right way around. Veron was one of our best players on each big european tie, but usually not good enough in the league. Well, we have different tactics and personnel for european matches. And those matches are far fewer, the opposition tending to be harder, than the league teams.

Veron was almost like Park - You wanted him in the team on european nights not just against easy teams, but even more-so against the harder teams. And if we had managed to win the champions league in his time at the club, he'd have been a big part of it you feel. Park hasnt made himself a consistant starter for league matches though. At least not this season, despite playing better than last season. Same with Veron... But then he was up against Keane and Scholes at their best, while Park is competing for a place with Valencia and Nani who arent close to their peak years yet.

Did we win more in Europe with Veron than without him? No - so who's to say we wouldn't have actually been more successful if we hadn't had him.

All speculation I know, but he frustrated me immensely. He slowed everything down and we didn't play "United" football.

 

[Ekeke]

Did we win more in Europe with Veron than without him? No - so who's to say we wouldn't have actually been more successful if we hadn't had him.

All speculation I know, but he frustrated me immensely. He slowed everything down and we didn't play "United" football.

The "United" football which served us so well in europe at that time? Yes he did slow us down. Which is probably why he suited carving open the european teams. Thats champions league for you.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

You could count Veron's great games without using your toes.

Yes. But he was bought to win us the big ears. It's only when that failed that SAF gave up.

It was never right to persevere because it never worked on anything near a consistent level.....

In Veron's last season I thought it worked pretty well in the league. We came back from the dead that year because of that. The Chelsea game in which Forlan scored springs to mine.

What put paid to all I feel was that failure in Europe.

 

[Dans]

He generally doesn't have an "argument" per se.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

The same midfield who scored 3 goals v Bayern?

Did you understand a single thing I posted?

When Rooney wasn't there what did they do? In Munich too when he was what did they do?

So lets get this straight. SAF is using Berba deeper so he can help the midfield keep possession

Yes. His said so himself recently.

BUT you said this same MIDFIELD has lost how to make passes

Of course it has. That is why they spent the whole game today so deep. Resulting in Berbatov being too deep, as he tried to not be isolated from them, just making things worse. You seem to want to deny that this is the same midfield that isolated Rooney in Muncih, Berba vs Chelsea and the likes of Rooney and Nani vs Bayern in the second half. Just because they scored 3 first half goals on Wednesday.

SO isn't it futile that according to you ONLY 1 man can make passes but once he makes the passes we lose the ball.

What on Earth are you talking about?

 

[AlwaysRedwood]

We should probably buy a couple more keepers too.

And maybe another top class centre back.

The more the merrier obviously.

Doesn't really matter how they fit into the team, we should just stack them all up and hope fr the best. That works.

You're right. We didn't have 3 strikers after buying Berbatov.

 

[Red Defence]

I just checked your last ten messages and couldn't find anything. So I guess I was wrong (but I may have confused you with another poster more likely Red Dreams or someone else). Anyway we all make mistakes like you assuming the climate in South Africa would be bad for England.

Well you wouldn't be able to find anything would you because you jumped in without paying attention to the posts.

You're at it again aren't you too.

What I actually said was that England never do too well in climates in that hemisphere....and if the humidity is any higher out there than in England I'll be right.

Anyway, you've apologised but see on it doesn't happen again.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

So SAF drops Berba deep to keep more possession which you say doesnt make much difference so which is it?

What are you on about? Have I presented an argument about it making a difference or not?

Your argument just sways from one way to another.

You wish. It's you who simply doesn't seem to grasp what m argument is.

 

[Ixion]

Saw on the BBC's match report

while the surly Berbatov, who played in a deep position and spent far too much times waving his arms in frustration and remonstrating with his team-mates

BBC Sport - Football - Blackburn 0-0 Man Utd

Spot on I think. He needs to cut it out.

And this one:

Berbatov's body language somehow personified United's woes. The Bulgarian forward was a picture of frustration, with himself, his colleagues, the game and even the referee

Toothless United suffer title setback at Blackburn - Yahoo! News

And another:

But it was a largely unhappy afternoon for United's £30.75million record signing, who was reduced to arm-waving and head-shaking as his meaningful contribution until he threaded a pass through to Valencia.

Report: Blackburn Rovers vs Manchester United - English Premier League - ESPN Soccernet

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

According to you I midfield cannot pass. You have stated that.

Rather I've stated they've lost form and have forgotten how to pass properly.

So if they can't pass what is the point of playing Berba in midfield - he passes to someone and then we lose the ball - thats not keeping possession is it.

1. SAF isn't playing Berba in midfield. He is playing him deeper. /as a link between midfield and attack like in the first half today. He ended up like he was in midfield when Macheda left the field, because of how static and deep our midfield was operating.

But lets get onto how deep the midfield has played. According to you SAF was angry the team played deep - so you accept it was the teams fault and not the managers?

Clearly. After all I told you I blame players for what is clearly their own fault.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

So when does playing so deep not become playing in midfield - what is the demarcation line?

Take the 2 halves today for example. In first half he was deeper than Macheda but pretty much close to him. The way a second striker should be

In second half he was closer to the center line and even behind it til very late on for the most part. Just like the rest of the team.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

.....So you mentioned the team was playing deep yet they continued to do so accoridng to you after the break.

It got far worse after the break the moment Macheda left. In First half, Berbatov, Nani and Valencia were sort of keeping it in check. Because Macheda was ahead of all of them. When Berbatov was supposed to be the target in front, and did his usual dropping deeper to not be isolated, it became a night mare.

Hmm whilst we had Scholes and Giggs in midfield - 2 very experienced players. You dont think SAF would have told them to push on in the half time team talk.

I believe he did. That is why he was looking in despair in the technical area as things went from bad to worse as he tried to make changes. Then plain pissed off as the changes finally started to work when it was too damn late.

SAf mentioend we very good up until the final third - then why was that. he did not mention we played too deep in his post match analysis. care to explain?

I personally dont expect SAF to share his rollicking of the boys with the rest of the world. Have no doubts they got the hair drier today for what they did.

 

[Moultz]

Possibly one of the best ways ive heard to sum up Berba.


"Berbatov is incapable of playing as an independent striker which makes him pretty much useless unless we have another very good striker playing with him all the time. He's ketchup, makes the chips taste better but completely useless on its own"

 

[AlwaysRedwood]

In second half he was closer to the center line and even behind it til very late on for the most part. Just like the rest of the team.

I guess everyone else should have pushed up ahead of Berbatov and left the forward behind. Oh, wait, that did happen on a few bewildering occasions.

 

[Sultan]

Possibly one of the best ways ive heard to sum up Berba.


"Berbatov is incapable of playing as an independent striker which makes him pretty much useless unless we have another very good striker playing with him all the time. He's ketchup, makes the chips taste better but completely useless on its own"

An element of truth in there.

 

[Brwned]

Saw on the BBC's match report



BBC Sport - Football - Blackburn 0-0 Man Utd

Spot on I think. He needs to cut it out.

And this one:



Toothless United suffer title setback at Blackburn - Yahoo! News

And another:



Report: Blackburn Rovers vs Manchester United - English Premier League - ESPN Soccernet

You do rrealise you were saying he should be showing passion, and now you're criticising him for it?

 

[FlawlessThaw]

Possibly one of the best ways ive heard to sum up Berba.


"Berbatov is incapable of playing as an independent striker which makes him pretty much useless unless we have another very good striker playing with him all the time. He's ketchup, makes the chips taste better but completely useless on its own"

brilliant

 

[Boss]

Possibly one of the best ways ive heard to sum up Berba.


"Berbatov is incapable of playing as an independent striker which makes him pretty much useless unless we have another very good striker playing with him all the time. He's ketchup, makes the chips taste better but completely useless on its own"

So much debate summed up there.

 

[Ixion]

You do rrealise you were saying he should be showing passion, and now you're criticising him for it?

Yes thats what I said, that he should publicly criticise his teammates for 90 minutes and mope around sulking constantly. Thats not passion. He looked like he didn't even want to be out on the pitch in the second half.

 

[Name Changed]

It depends on what you call struggling. For me keeping control of a game so deep in your own half, against really weak opponents is struggling.

We had a shit load of possession in their third of the pitch, especially in the 3rd quarter of the match.

 

[Name Changed]

Sir Alex bought Berbatov because he wanted to improve his striking line-up, obviously.

Ergo, he thought Tevez wasn't up to being first choice.

What?

Did he buy Diouf so because he thinks Berbatov is not up to being first choice anymore?

 

[Livvie]

Fergie can't just come out and say that his hands are tied, but I do wonder if the Glazers are allowing him as much free rein as they claim. Especially (mainly) financially.

 

[MrK]

We had a shit load of possession in their third of the pitch, especially in the 3rd quarter of the match.

Yes, after we switched to a midfield three, when Park came on for Macheda in the 66th minute. It wasn't Berbatov dropping deep that was the problem, we needed players in there who'd pressure the play forward.

 

[Red Defence]

Yes, after we switched to a midfield three, when Park came on for Macheda in the 66th minute. It wasn't Berbatov dropping deep that was the problem, we needed players in there who'd pressure the play forward.

That's a problem we've had for a while though isn't it, getting the ball forward to the strikers. We generally have to take it via the wing becuse it just doesn't get forward through the middle as often as it should.

 

[Allforone]

If only Valencia had put away that sitter Berbatov layed on a plate for him...the fine lines of being either a Hero or a villain ....

 

[CptMarvel]

Cue the defence of Ketchup as being a staple diet.

Or the continued criticism of ketchup in times of no potatoes.

 

[AllhailManUtd]

Cue the defence of Ketchup as being a staple diet.

 

[Red Defence]

We scored more goals this year than last -so what problem.

Its easy to blame a colective like the "midfield" and then say its not the fault of the forwards. More like its a combination of both but so many on here have dug their heels in they won't be moving on now.

As I've said before, you know exactly what the problem is so I just don't know why you pretend otherwise.

 

[MrK]

Again this narrow minded thinking that its only certain players role is to pressure. The whole team need to pressure including the forwards. For all Messi skill the guy presses and runs and closes down defenders.

This is the type of thinking that excuses slack play.

That's exactly my point! The whole team need to put the pressure on, not just the forward line! Although I was talking about attacking play rather than defensive. I don't think Berbatov pressured Blackburn players in possession any less than the other attacking players today, at least for most of the game. Things did drop off from him towards the end, as frustration rose.

My point was that without pressuring midfielders, we end up far more likely to turnover possession in attack than if we have our mids high up the pitch and ready to chase down any breaking balls. Without this midfield pressure the attacks break down on the tiniest mistake, because the ball was always likely to break to them.