More praise for Berbatovs performance at the weekend? meh, what does Rio Ferdinand know about football, or Sir Alex ferguson for that matter, its obvious internet spastics like Ekeke know so much more about the game than these people.....If he says Berbatov wasnt great then thats clearly the case.....
Dimitar Berbatov | 2009/10 Performances
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More praise for Berbatovs performance at the weekend? meh, what does Rio Ferdinand know about football, or Sir Alex ferguson for that matter, its obvious internet spastics like Ekeke know so much more about the game than these people.....If he says Berbatov wasnt great then thats clearly the case.....
He was very good at doing what Berbatov does, as I said earlier in the thread. He played a good game. Just not what the team needs from its CF in a 4-3-3. If he plays as he did in a 2 up front its fine because Rooney is keeping his discipline and getting on the end of everything in the box. But in a 4-3-3 you need your CF to be disciplined and he wasnt. Some teams can get away with that if they have brilliant goalscoring players bursting into the box. Like if Ronaldo was still here and he was playing instead of Nani. Or a Lampard coming from midfield. We dont have these things, so the goalscoring emphasis is on the striker to play like a striker and just play the basic role.
Maybe your view of "what the team needs of a CF in a 4-3-3" differs from those of Sir Alex ferguson, Rio ferdinand and the entire Manchester United squad? infact im pretty sure it does seeing as Manager and club captian were and have since said delighted at how Berbatov ran the line on saturday, if he wasnt doing his job then clearly they wouldnt have been.....there are plenty of examples of lone strikers in such systems playing similiar roles to which Berbatov did on saturday, Totti of Roma is a prime example of a lone striker dropping deep rather than playing in and around the box for 90 minutes....
IMO it's not about distance coverd, it is where you make this runs and how much distance you cover at full speed. Bear in mind that refs cover around 12 km a game as well.
so Berbs can run around 12 km per game (and that's true) but if majority of these runs resembles morning jogging in the park then it's pretty much ineffecitve.
Maybe Berbatov needs confidence to play his best football and given that our real CF for 4-3-3 is probably not going to be fit for the match and the only other option is a player who came on and looked a bit raw in the previous match, they are doing their best to talk him up so they get a performance against Milan.
I havent seen comments about our other players who did 'well' in the previous match, maybe its less of a concern that those players will perform in the next match on a big night for the club.
What did Roma win with that system by the way? Its actually a very apt comparison because the players we had to pick on the day are no more potent goalscoring threats than those Totti has to link up with. Although obviously playing that same formation and style every week leads to them being much better at it than we would be in a one off match without the player who has scored a huge majority of our goals this season.
He's also the one player in the team who starts off in a more advanced position than he ends up at the end of our attacks. So he's running backwards while everyone else runs forward. Then when the attack is finished he has to run back to his starting position up front. He also peeled off to make a few runs in the channels. Which is something he doesnt usually do for us, but something which he better keep doing when we play 4-4-2 as it'd be another string to his bow in that formation. But without a proper attacking threat to fill in for him when he pulls wide, its nowhere near as useful in a 4-3-3.
Ahh that old chestnut again, yes that must be it.....
As for "I havent seen comments about our other players who did 'well' in the previous match"...well that might have something to do with the fact no one else did perhaps? it was a shit performance by the majority bar Scholes and Berbatov, who ironically were the 2 players both manager and captain praised after the match....go figure.....i suppose Scholes needs a confidence boost to.....clearly his praise was merely because of that and nothing whatsoever to do with how he played....it all makes sense now.
Like I said, I havent seen them. Could you dig up the Scholes comments? I've read the Berbatov ones, would be nice to read the Scholes ones too.
Weird. Talking about him scoring 100 goals, not how far he runs according to stats. You'd think the running stats comments would be about a midfield player and the goalscoring comments would be about a striker.
But, that's exactly is what Rio is pointing out - people see him as being languid and so think the work isn't really there. You don't just cover 12ks because you feel like it, not on a football pitch and not at this level. Berbatov once himself said it, he doesn't just run to run, when he does, there is a purpose to it.
The distance covered is a result of the workrate that people don't seem to think Berbatov has.
You don't have to run fullspeed everywhere to be effective either.
Nice twisting of comments to suit your agenda as per usual......clearly Sir Alex is worried about Scholes and wants to build up his confidence for wednesday, with him being mentally fragile an all.....
Just giving credit to Scholes. Berbatov does do plenty of running especially in the last 2 matches and if you actually look at my comment I'm giving him credit for that. As I said, you'd think a midfielder would cover that ground not so much a striker. I havent said he isnt running enough of that he doesnt run enough, but if he focused it in the right areas to play CF effectively we'd have been better off in my opinion and Rio could well have been talking about Berbatov the multiple goalscorer not Berbatov the running man.
lol have to try twist everything. That quote on Scholes was from SAF, who didn't mention anything about distance covered stats when talking about Berbatov either, he just praised his performance. So now a striker can't have a good game without scoring. Well must be true for Berbatov.
I think youll find Rio was talking about Berbatov the 'team man' if you read and listen properly, playing the role he did required him to occupy a back 4 pretty much on his lonesome and bring the rest of the team into play, and he did so extremly well hence the lavish praise from both captain and manager post match......there is after all more to football than standing in the box and tapping the ball home.....especially when your a lone front man an all.....
Cant really win can he, if he stands in and around the box all match hes described as 'lazy'....if he runs around working an entire back 4 and linking the game hes described as 'running the wrong way and not in the box enough'.....what a strange and fickle world we live in.
I know who said what, look above.
I guess its been "lazy" Rooney this season then. Cant wait to see how he does when he starts trying.
Still getting in your snide little digs, I see?
Talking a load of balls too, as usual.
Did Berbatov really play too deep? Did he really?
Here's his heat map from the Wolves game. Just beneath it, you will see Rooney's against Arsenal, a game which was probably his best game as a lone striker in his entire United career:
Tell me, who came deeper more often?
Seems to me the only difference between those two games was that Rooney benefitted from Nani playing the best game of his life, combined with the intelligence and work-rate of Park on the opposite flank. All of which was helped by our CMs stepping up to the mark and bossing the game for long periods.
Berbatov, on the other hand, had to endure an old-school Nani stinker, combined with Gibson having one of his worst games in a United shirt. The positions they took up were almost identical. If anything, Berbatov was more disciplined than Rooney and dropped deep less than he did. The only real difference is that Berbatov plays slightly further forward and to the right, presumably because he was getting decent service from that flank - unlike the dross he was getting served up by Nani. If, like Rooney, he is lucky enough to have Park on the left wing i would expect him to drift right a little less.
Oh and for the record, here's Berba against Wolves again, compared to Rooney v Brum. You will not that once again, Rooney is playing deeper than Berbatov did (the difference is even more marked against Villa but I'll spare you that one, because we played with ten men).
I don't remember you whining about Rooney's lack of discipline in that particular game, funnily enough. Of course, being even-handed about United players has always been beyond you. Along with other tricky concepts, such as logic and reason.
I look forward to your usual surreal logic-free drivel, in a desperate attempt to deny these very obvious 'fachts'. Should be worth a giggle anyway. Off you go....
Aye, nothing to do with Rooney and Berbatov being totaly different players or anything after all........its amazing how without Rooney we didnt have a like for like man to just waltz in and carry on.....
Maybe this is your problem, you expect everyone to be the same as Rooney.....maybe you should look at that.....
Maybe this is your problem, you expect everyone to be the same as Rooney.....maybe you should look at that.....
Rooney changed his game to play the lone striker role effectively.
Berbatov is doing what Rooney did before that, playing well outside the box but not getting on the end of things as much. In the previous game he got on the end of things less than Rooney ever has playing as a lone forward and we need our "lone striker" scoring goals now more than in previous seasons with no Ronaldo to ease the goalscoring burden popping up in the box and playing like a striker.
Maybe I'm not being fair to Scholes and he'll continue, being a constant source of goals bursting into the box and exploiting the space Berbatov's alergic to. But that remains to be seen.
Rooney and Berbatov being different players has nothing to do with whats "lazy" or not running into the areas the team really needs a player running into.
Great post Pogue.Still getting in your snide little digs, I see?
Talking a load of balls too, as usual.
Did Berbatov really play too deep? Did he really?
Here's his heat map from the Wolves game. Just beneath it, you will see Rooney's against Arsenal, a game which was probably his best game as a lone striker in his entire United career:
Tell me, who came deeper more often?
Seems to me the only difference between those two games was that Rooney benefitted from Nani playing the best game of his life, combined with the intelligence and work-rate of Park on the opposite flank. All of which was helped by our CMs stepping up to the mark and bossing the game for long periods.
Berbatov, on the other hand, had to endure an old-school Nani stinker, combined with Gibson having one of his worst games in a United shirt. The positions they took up were almost identical. If anything, Berbatov was more disciplined than Rooney and dropped deep less than he did. The only real difference is that Berbatov plays slightly further forward and to the right, presumably because he was getting decent service from that flank - unlike the dross he was getting served up by Nani. If, like Rooney, he is lucky enough to have Park on the left wing i would expect him to drift right a little less.
Oh and for the record, here's Berba against Wolves again, compared to Rooney v Brum. You will not that once again, Rooney is playing deeper than Berbatov did (the difference is even more marked against Villa but I'll spare you that one, because we played with ten men).
I don't remember you whining about Rooney's lack of discipline in that particular game, funnily enough. Of course, being even-handed about United players has always been beyond you. Along with other tricky concepts, such as logic and reason.
I look forward to your usual surreal logic-free drivel, in a desperate attempt to deny these very obvious 'fachts'. Should be worth a giggle anyway. Off you go....
Still getting in your snide little digs, I see?
Talking a load of balls too, as usual.
Did Berbatov really play too deep? Did he really?
Here's his heat map from the Wolves game. Just beneath it, you will see Rooney's against Arsenal, a game which was probably his best game as a lone striker in his entire United career:
Tell me, who came deeper more often?
Seems to me the only difference between those two games was that Rooney benefitted from Nani playing the best game of his life, combined with the intelligence and work-rate of Park on the opposite flank. All of which was helped by our CMs stepping up to the mark and bossing the game for long periods.
Berbatov, on the other hand, had to endure an old-school Nani stinker, combined with Gibson having one of his worst games in a United shirt. The positions they took up were almost identical. If anything, Berbatov was more disciplined than Rooney and dropped deep less than he did. The only real difference is that Berbatov plays slightly further forward and to the right, presumably because he was getting decent service from that flank - unlike the dross he was getting served up by Nani. If, like Rooney, he is lucky enough to have Park on the left wing i would expect him to drift right a little less.
Oh and for the record, here's Berba against Wolves again, compared to Rooney v Brum. You will not that once again, Rooney is playing deeper than Berbatov did (the difference is even more marked against Villa but I'll spare you that one, because we played with ten men).
I don't remember you whining about Rooney's lack of discipline in that particular game, funnily enough. Of course, being even-handed about United players has always been beyond you. Along with other tricky concepts, such as logic and reason.
I look forward to your usual surreal logic-free drivel, in a desperate attempt to deny these very obvious 'fachts'. Should be worth a giggle anyway. Off you go....
So you take one game where we concentrated on counter-attacking the opposition effecively from our own half and killing them with it, and another game where we had the majority of the ball and didnt put an effective counter-attack together once. Well done.
Playing deep isnt just about how far you drop, but how far forward you move as the team attacks too. Rooney got on the end of things in the box against Arsenal. Berbatov got on the end of things about as much as our wingers.
Regardless, it was a general comment about his general tendancy since he signed for us which is to play deep. He's had a few games where he's done one or two things different, like in the cup final last week when he put in loads of desire and commitment. It hasnt been that way every week. But most weeks Berbatov has played deep no matter if it was last season or this season, its what he does. A blip or two doesn't change the general trend.
Berbatov has "pretty much" played the same way since he signed for us. Deep.. cont.
Pretty much. Not "in every match" or "completely".
But hes not though, thats the point as recent posts in this thread indicate.....he just plays the role in a different manner because quite clearly hes a different type of player, replace the gusto and all action nature of Rooney with the more technically focussed linker of play in Berbatov, you cant just expect Berbatov to suddenly play in exactly the same style as Rooney and change his entire ethos of playing make exactly the same runs do exactly the same things off the ball etc because thats not his game and clearly not whats expected of him when he plays the role.....its just not going to happen, their different players with different strengths and hence we play accordingly dependent on who it is up there.
Not everyone’s Wayne Rooney…..it is possible for a 4-3-3 to function with a Berbatov esk striker leading the line as proven by many other teams, and by Berbatov on the weekend.
We're discussing one game, for feck's sake, the game against Wolves. The only game that Berbatov has played as a lone striker all season.
I chose the last two games Rooney played the same position. Could have chosen the last three but the Villa game would be unfair (even though he was even deeper in that one). I could have chosen any game, to be honest, he adopts the same positions every time he plays as a lone striker. Didn't think you'd be enough of a spaz to want me to do the same for every single fecking game that Rooney played on his own up top. Obviously, I under-estimated your gimpishness.
Gee, I wonder if that's got anything to do with the different service from the wings in those games? Nah, that would be too obvious, surely? I'm sure you'll do one of your usual Mcfeckwit flip flops to try and deny that very obvious point.
Pogue - the chalkboards dont tell the whole story. For start, its only passes. Forwards dont just pass the ball. Its not a "heat map" as you put it.
Rooney v Arsenal was always going to be making his passes in deeper areas of the field as we were playing counter attacking football.
I dont know about Wolves, because i didnt watch the full game but i would have expected that we would have held the ball in their half far more than we did against Arsenal, meaning Berbatov would make his passes in more advanced areas than Rooney.
Rooney v Arsenal was always going to be making his passes in deeper areas of the field as we were playing counter attacking football.
I dont know about Wolves, because i didnt watch the full game but i would have expected that we would have held the ball in their half far more than we did against Arsenal, meaning Berbatov would make his passes in more advanced areas than Rooney.
I don't even know why you bother with him, you're fighting a losing battle.
End of the day, different players are going to play a role in different ways. There is not one hard and fast rule to playing as the front man in a 433.
Give Barbatov a chance to see what he can do in that role.
Give Barbatov a chance to see what he can do in that role.
Yeah sure, Mr. Innocent
Yes I'm sorry for being a spaz hoping that if you are going to the trouble to bring up your "heat diagrams" that you're at least going to take two similar matches. You know, so its worth the trouble and everything. And not two completely different matches, one where our tactics were to invite the opposition towards us, win the ball just outside our box and break from deep and score on the counter-attack.Its hard to set Berbatov up in the box when he's outside the box or he's the one crossing the ball from the right wing. Thats why he didnt get on the end of anything. Or are you saying Valencia was poor on the right not giving him good delivery? We both know Nani wasnt very good on or coming in from the left, but I thought you said Valencia had a good game. Now you're saying Berbatov had no delivery to work with? Make up your mind.
For the record, here's the most recent game before Brum when Rooney played as a lone striker. Away against West Ham. Last November.
I'm not going back any further. Feel free to do so, if you're still insisting the games I selected are special or unusual. Proving you wrong is too much like hard work. Like smacking my head off a brick wall. A very dense brick wall.
I'm not going back any further. Feel free to do so, if you're still insisting the games I selected are special or unusual. Proving you wrong is too much like hard work. Like smacking my head off a brick wall. A very dense brick wall.
Our tactics were completely different away against Birmingham and West Ham to the tactics away against Wolves?
You're such a spa, you really are.
For the record, here's the most recent game before Brum when Rooney played as a lone striker. Away against West Ham. Last November.
I'm not going back any further. Feel free to do so, if you're still insisting the games I selected are special or unusual. Proving you wrong is too much like hard work. Like smacking my head off a brick wall. A very dense brick wall.
The way it should be, surely? Thankyou for finding a more suitable match but as I said before, it was a general comment not specific to the one match Berbatov played through the middle and it was a comment that allowed for a few blips.
As well the point remains that if you're "playing deep" it generally means you are not just appearing in deep areas, but arent also popping up in lots of advanced areas. If someone was doing that you wouldn't say "He's playing deep and he's playing really far up the pitch". You'd just say he's getting up and down the pitch, which is what Rooney does. Berbatov wasnt making runs into the box and looking to get on the end of things like Rooney does.
You deem that match more suitable? Good stuff.
You will note that Rooney plays considerably deeper than Berbatov in that particular game. Just like the other games I posted. Yet it's only Berbatov who you accuse of lacking discipline and playing too deep.
feck it, what's the point?
Any normal, sane individual would have seen my first post and gone "interesting, Berbatov didn't drop as deep as I thought watching the game" You know, that can happen? It is possible to get misleading impressions watching a game live. You don't have to refuse to back down on every observation you make, ever.
I knew you weren't capable of doing that though. It was inevitable that you'd start huffing and puffing, flip flopping all over the shop - trying to go off on stupid tangents rather than concede a point. It's what you do. It's very frustrating and makes discussing football with your completely pointless.
Fact is it shows that when he's been played as the one up top, he's occupied the pitch high enough. He's been disciplined. He can do the role, he just needs more help from mainly our centre mids to be an effective part of it. He plays deep when he's played with Rooney usually, but that's because it's his given role in the team. If he's asked to play further forward he plays further forward.
That's the crux of it.
The only problem here, if any, is that Sir Alex is playing him somewhere where people on here don't want him to be, rather than Berbatov's natural tendencies. But then that wouldn't be the first time people can't really see the bigger picture on here though, is it? Contrary to popular belief he takes orders on board very well, or at least has done while here.
That's the crux of it.
The only problem here, if any, is that Sir Alex is playing him somewhere where people on here don't want him to be, rather than Berbatov's natural tendencies. But then that wouldn't be the first time people can't really see the bigger picture on here though, is it? Contrary to popular belief he takes orders on board very well, or at least has done while here.
I think you guys have done nice to come up with the statistics, but referring to the games that we've seen Berbatov play, he just doesn't blend into our attack like Rooney does, he's not the main man and the real problem is that he is slow and just doesn't get in to the box like we want him to.
Another problem is his counter attacking, he'd sprat the pass but nuff said, he just won't run forward and it a meaningless striker for us. Not running forward is the main issue here, stop with all the bad support, Rooney hasn't had the best but has scored and done well for us, I haven't seen Berbs intention to really want to score yet but all he doesn' is whine about the lack of quality from MF, please the MF are alraedy there but there was no one to pass to, just look at Valencia when he dashed forward for the counter attack, you'd expect Berbs right in there but even Gibson and Park was running, but no Berbs, if he doesn't improve that and is not willing to run like a mad man into the box, he won't make it for us and will be Veron Mark II.
Another problem is his counter attacking, he'd sprat the pass but nuff said, he just won't run forward and it a meaningless striker for us. Not running forward is the main issue here, stop with all the bad support, Rooney hasn't had the best but has scored and done well for us, I haven't seen Berbs intention to really want to score yet but all he doesn' is whine about the lack of quality from MF, please the MF are alraedy there but there was no one to pass to, just look at Valencia when he dashed forward for the counter attack, you'd expect Berbs right in there but even Gibson and Park was running, but no Berbs, if he doesn't improve that and is not willing to run like a mad man into the box, he won't make it for us and will be Veron Mark II.
It was a general comment about Berbatov's time at the club. Not a comment about the one game he played up front
Read it one more time."Berbatov has pretty much played the same way since he signed for us. Deep..." and then it continues.
Where did I say that every game he plays, he plays deep? But on the whole, over the course of his United career its fair to say that he plays "deep". Without doubt.
Now thats one thing. Another thing is, I havent said Rooney doesnt drop deep. He does. Less than in previous seasons but we've still seen him pop up and make a tackle in his own half. He's obviously come deep at times. But he's done what I've suggested Berbatov needs to do which is get in advanced positions in the box and get on the end of things. So Rooney hasnt just "played deep" like Berbatov does in most matches including against Wolves. He's gone up and down, but he's made sure he's in the right place at the right time when the ball comes into the box.
Like it or not the ball did come into the box against Wolves and Nani came closer to getting on the end of it than Berbatov did. Because Berbatov maintained a deep position for a striker for the majority of the match. He still did some very nice things including his run down the right and cross. But in my opinion it would have paid off more if he didnt drop off as much, didnt make so many runs down the channels and made sure he got himself in some goalscoring positons when the crosses were coming in. Because he didnt do that.
Adding to that Berbs likes to drift wide and try to link up with the wingers... But once he does that we find that we have no one in the box, he just eats the space of the wingers too much as he just demands the ball. Why should he demand so much when we've got Scholes/Valencia/Park to help him, just get in the box and get on to the end of things FFS Berbs. We know you can do it.
Why we are considering him as a failure ? Cuz he has more skill and tecnique than Ruud but he lacks the desire to score and just makes the striker position look hard when Ruud just made it look plain simple, your a striker... you score goals. No matter how many impressive flicks you make per game, in the end if we're not scoring,you'll be taking the blame.
Why we are considering him as a failure ? Cuz he has more skill and tecnique than Ruud but he lacks the desire to score and just makes the striker position look hard when Ruud just made it look plain simple, your a striker... you score goals. No matter how many impressive flicks you make per game, in the end if we're not scoring,you'll be taking the blame.
Problem is, we don’t have enough options upfront. If Rooney was out for the season, we would be fooked.
I think Chelsea would get by without Drogba - they proved that in Jan and Feb. Arsenal are still in the title race despite not having Van Persie.
We should have more real options than just Berba, Rooney and Owen.
I dont know why, but clubs seem to have less forwards in their squad than they used to. Maybe its because playing one uptop is the current fashion.
I think Chelsea would get by without Drogba - they proved that in Jan and Feb. Arsenal are still in the title race despite not having Van Persie.
We should have more real options than just Berba, Rooney and Owen.
I dont know why, but clubs seem to have less forwards in their squad than they used to. Maybe its because playing one uptop is the current fashion.
If thats the case why did Sir Alex come out and say he made a mistake playing Berbatov in the hole last season? Thats not something a manager usually says when a player has done exactly what he was told to do and done it successfully.
More than likely the opposite is true. The manager thought he could mold him a bit more than he can, instead of just letting him go out there and do whatever comes naturally to him. Hence he plays deep and tries to create for others rather than go for goal often, regardless of what formation we use.
Apples & Pears comparing Ruud and Berbatov.
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