Dimitar Berbatov | 2009/10 Performances

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Ekeke said:
If thats the case why did Sir Alex come out and say he made a mistake playing Berbatov in the hole last season? Thats not something a manager usually says when a player has done exactly what he was told to do and done it successfully.

More than likely the opposite is true. The manager thought he could mold him a bit more than he can, instead of just letting him go out there and do whatever comes naturally to him. Hence he plays deep and tries to create for others rather than go for goal often, regardless of what formation we use.
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He misjudged Berbatov's best use in this team originally, he's attempted to correct that this season and I think he's done that quite well.

I'm not sure what that has to do with the overall point that Berbatov was playing as he was told to, rather than as he wanted to. And so, if anyone's to blame for this particular 'problem', then it's Sir Alex.

He creates for others because he's one of the best passers in the team, because he knows how to take advantage of the movement of the others around him excellently, it's because Sir Alex thinks that's how he's most effective. It's not because Berbatov likes fannying about on the halfway line and does as he wants to do.

But as always it's mountains out of molehills. He doesn't do excellently in his first season - he's a failure, not United material etc. He doesn't do excellently up front on his own - he can't play there.

This isn't directed at you entirely, you can at least see that with a few tweaks Berbatov could do well there, it's just that you think the tweaks are different/more difficult than I do.
 
Brwned said:
He misjudged Berbatov's best use in this team originally, he's attempted to correct that this season and I think he's done that quite well.

I'm not sure what that has to do with the overall point that Berbatov was playing as he was told to, rather than as he wanted to. And so, if anyone's to blame for this particular 'problem', then it's Sir Alex.

He creates for others because he's one of the best passers in the team, because he knows how to take advantage of the movement of the others around him excellently, it's because Sir Alex thinks that's how he's most effective. It's not because Berbatov likes fannying about on the halfway line and does as he wants to do.

But as always it's mountains out of molehills. He doesn't do excellently in his first season - he's a failure, not United material etc. He doesn't do excellently up front on his own - he can't play there.

This isn't directed at you entirely, you can at least see that with a few tweaks Berbatov could do well there, it's just that you think the tweaks are different/more difficult than I do.
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I dont think its very difficult for a striker to spend the majority of his time on the edge or inside the box. You or I could do it or at least learn it. But that little bit of discipline would be the key to making use of his other talents in my opinion. In the same way that working hard gets the most out of players with technical ability. Do the basics and then let your ability do the rest.
 
Ekeke said:
I dont think its very difficult for a striker to spend the majority of his time on the edge or inside the box. You or I could do it or at least learn it. But that little bit of discipline would be the key to making use of his other talents in my opinion. In the same way that working hard gets the most out of players with technical ability. Do the basics and then let your ability do the rest.
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Bloody hell. More nonsense. There's not a striker on the planet who spends "the majority of his time on the edge or inside the box". Not even Pippo fecking Inzaghi goal hangs to that extent. If you're expecting Berbatov to play further forward than Inzaghi then you really have lost it.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Bloody hell. More nonsense. There's not a striker on the planet who spends "the majority of his time on the edge or inside the box". Not even Pippo fecking Inzaghi goal hangs to that extent. If you're expecting Berbatov to play further forward than Inzaghi then you really have lost it.
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Yeah and you think all it takes to be a better left winger than Giggs or Park is to pass the ball to Evra. Keep them coming funny guy.
 
Ekeke said:
I dont think its very difficult for a striker to spend the majority of his time on the edge or inside the box. You or I could do it or at least learn it. But that little bit of discipline would be the key to making use of his other talents in my opinion. In the same way that working hard gets the most out of players with technical ability. Do the basics and then let your ability do the rest.
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So only a certain sort of midfielder can break into the box but any striker can spend his time hanging round the area. Glad that's cleared up now.
 
So after all this.

Ekeke wants Berbatov to be up and around the box more and leave the build up play to others.

Other supporters will have a shit storm the day Berbatov is prancing about the opponents 18 yard box and doesn't have any involvement in the game, especially if he misses the one or two chances that come his way.

Several of us think that though he is no Rooney, he did very well playing the lone striker role, for the first time in a long time for United against a team that is fighting for every point, on a pitch that was eh to play on and could perhaps done better had a couple of the support players had a better game.

Berba could have done better a few times to get in the box more but, overall, he is a class player to have when a player who is right now being ranked in the top 3 in the world isn't available.
 
I see some like Ekeke and a few others on this forum fail to understand the true role of a Centre-Forward

I will save myself some time and copy paste this from wikipedia

Centre forward

The centre forward is often a tall player, typically known as a target man, who is used to win long balls or receive passes and "hold up" the ball as team-mates advance, to help teammates score by providing a pass ('through ball' into the box), or to score himself; the latter variation usually requiring quicker pace. Some forwards operate on the wings of the field and work their way goalward. A centre forward usually must be strong, to win key headers and 'outmuscle' defenders.
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Again, don't confuse the strikers with centre forward

Striker

The striker however varies greatly from the centre-forward. Strikers are more known for their ability to peel off defenders and to run into space via the blind side of the defender and to receive the ball in a good goalscoring position. They are typically fast players with decent ball control and dribbling abilities. A good striker should be able to shoot confidently with both feet, possess great power and accuracy, and have the ability to slot the ball under pressure in breakaway situations.
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gaffs said:
Apples & Pears comparing Ruud and Berbatov.
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What difference was it when we are playing 4-5-1 ? They would have played the exact same position and Ruud would have tried his best to get to the end of things, while Berbs just lacked the pace and desire to get into the box. It has been seen many times and it is the main reason why he has been receiving the slack here. Will post it once and post it again until I see a desparate mode Berbratox trying to put an effort to get into the box rather linking up play and letting our wingers have nothing to aim for.

We certainly looked better with Diouf on and Gibson as a supporting Stiker was a clueless idea by SAF and we nearly lost 2 points. Berbs cannot simply lead the line alone, I mean FFS it was wolves we were playing not anyone near the top ten teams of the PL. We were in desparate mode and I was simply pissed of when we were counter attacking and Berbs was still out side the box and there was onlly Gibson to aim at.
 
CptMarvel said:
So only a certain sort of midfielder can break into the box but any striker can spend his time hanging round the area. Glad that's cleared up now.
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Yes. Only certain midfielders can be relied upon to break into the box and score the goals to win matches game after game, but most premier league strikers can spend enough time in the box to get on the end of crosses.

Most sides in the league could afford to sign or develop a striker of that type whilst most sides in the league cant afford to buy Lampard.

Glad you're clear.
 
CentreForward said:
I see some like Ekeke and a few others on this forum fail to understand the true role of a Centre-Forward

I will save myself some time and copy paste this from wikipedia



Again, don't confuse the strikers with centre forward
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Doesn't help the fact that Berbs has failed to live up his price tag and has failed playing as a first team player for us. I mean, I've left him alone for quite some time due to the fact that he had injuries blah blah blah... but this is almost his second season and he still has yet once played a MotM performance for me...

The reason I like Tevez more as even though the young fecker did not have the greatest tecnique his determination showed it on the pitch and he can actually dictate the play and give us momentum, and he can join the counter attack really well, Berbs... just hasn't showed any counter attacking skill what so ever and is just too lazy to get into that box.

I mean, defend him all you like, but in the end Berbs is still a waste of money, has completely lost himself and hasn't suited our style what so ever and we have to accept this. I don't want to be a basher but even against wolves... he failed to shine, his finishing hasn't impressed and while I do like his tecnique and skill I thought Berbs was just a luxuary player and I hope we see a more effective striker being bought for us next season or hopefully Macheda and Welbeck can really break through cuz I'm desparate for someone who can actually back Rooney up.
 
CentreForward said:
I see some like Ekeke and a few others on this forum fail to understand the true role of a Centre-Forward

I will save myself some time and copy paste this from wikipedia



Again, don't confuse the strikers with centre forward
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Wikipedia :lol:

When you have 3 up front, the middle player is a centre forward. This isnt Fifa, or football manager or whatever you want to play. This is actual football where tactics decide a player's role, not whether they are 5'6 and like to run with the ball or not.
 
Shimo said:
So after all this.

Ekeke wants Berbatov to be up and around the box more and leave the build up play to others.
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I didnt quite put it like that. Its absolutely brilliant that he drops back to help create now and again. Thats his main talent afterall and at times during certain phases of play the team could need that. But if its coming at the expense of getting on the end of things inside the box, then we cant afford that to happen without a Rooney or a Ronaldo in the team.

The priority should then be to fulfill the basic role, get on the end of things and score a goal or two. If he can do that while also dropping deep at times and creating for other players, brilliant. That's the talent he has and why he cost so much. But when we don't have players in the side that are made of goals, he needs to make sure he's doing the business as our 1 striker. Because Nani isn't going to be scoring the goals for him at the current rate and Valencia only managed to get into the box for a Nani cross once or twice and those would have been headed chances... Not how he's scored his goals this season. If we had Ronaldo on the right wing or Rooney playing wide left, then perhaps Berbatov can wander more and look to put them in. But when there's no Rooney the emphasis is on Berbatov to see us right in front of goal. He's capable of doing it, he just needs to be working in the right areas to make it count when he's the main man up front.
 
Ekeke said:
So you take one game where we concentrated on counter-attacking the opposition effecively from our own half and killing them with it, and another game where we had the majority of the ball and didnt put an effective counter-attack together once. Well done.
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gaffs said:
Pogue - the chalkboards dont tell the whole story. For start, its only passes. Forwards dont just pass the ball. Its not a "heat map" as you put it.
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Hehe. Fair points, Pogue I admire your resolution to use these chalkboards to prove your point... but they're only as good as the person who interprets them, and you're making some pretty fundamental and frankly obviously mistakes

RedThaiDevils#7 said:
I think you guys have done nice to come up with the statistics, but referring to the games that we've seen Berbatov play, he just doesn't blend into our attack like Rooney does, he's not the main man and the real problem is that he is slow and just doesn't get in to the box like we want him to.
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Seems a fair summary to me. As it is, I think Berbatov is a very good player, who doesn't quite fit into the United model of play
 
Ekeke said:
I didnt quite put it like that. Its absolutely brilliant that he drops back to help create now and again. Thats his main talent afterall and at times during certain phases of play the team could need that. But if its coming at the expense of getting on the end of things inside the box, then we cant afford that to happen without a Rooney or a Ronaldo in the team.

The priority should then be to fulfill the basic role, get on the end of things and score a goal or two. If he can do that while also dropping deep at times and creating for other players, brilliant. That's the talent he has and why he cost so much. But when we don't have players in the side that are made of goals, he needs to make sure he's doing the business as our 1 striker. Because Nani isn't going to be scoring the goals for him at the current rate and Valencia only managed to get into the box for a Nani cross once or twice and those would have been headed chances... Not how he's scored his goals this season. If we had Ronaldo on the right wing or Rooney playing wide left, then perhaps Berbatov can wander more and look to put them in. But when there's no Rooney the emphasis is on Berbatov to see us right in front of goal. He's capable of doing it, he just needs to be working in the right areas to make it count when he's the main man up front.
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This is accurate, those denying it are just Berbatov fan boys. He doesn't get into the box enough, he doesn't score enough. Unless Berbs doesn't have a Striker to feed on, I don't think he is that effective. We have spotted this ages ago, ever since his debut season. He still lacks the same thing and I mean he had 1 season to get over it, this is his second season and still the same, not enough goals is the verdict, yes he does drop deep and do a good job, but when we need him in dangerous positions he just isn't there.
 
RedThaiDevils#7 said:
This is accurate, those denying it are just Berbatov fan boys. He doesn't get into the box enough, he doesn't score enough. Unless Berbs doesn't have a Striker to feed on, I don't think he is that effective. We have spotted this ages ago, ever since his debut season. He still lacks the same thing and I mean he had 1 season to get over it, this is his second season and still the same, not enough goals is the verdict, yes he does drop deep and do a good job, but when we need him in dangerous positions he just isn't there.
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Maybe those not moaning so much were aware that he was not actually the Torres-type of striker that so many muppets seemed to think. That's the muppets issue, not Fergies, and not Berbatovs.
 
charleysurf said:
Maybe those not moaning so much were aware that he was not actually the Torres-type of striker that so many muppets seemed to think. That's the muppets issue, not Fergies, and not Berbatovs.
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We're comparing Cantona to Berbs, not Torres. I'm sure Ekeke and I have watched plenty of Spurs games to say that his performances for Spurs were much better than playing for us. And never once did I think he would be playing like this, we had high hopes of him but he just failed to deliver. I was hoping that a Roo Bers partnership would deliver... but it has failed miserably and Rooney has been awesome with + without Berbs.

And how is it not Berbs issue when we're dang talking about how he blends with the squad or not ?
 
RedThaiDevils#7 said:
Will post it once and post it again until I see a desparate mode Berbratox trying to put an effort to get into the box rather linking up play and letting our wingers have nothing to aim for.
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That'll just tell us more about you than about him...
 
Ekeke said:
Wikipedia :lol:
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Why laugh? I couldn't have said it better. Read the quote again. They talk sense

When you have 3 up front, the middle player is a centre forward.
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I am not sure what you are saying there

This isnt Fifa, or football manager or whatever you want to play.
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Mate, I am 36. I have a family, my own business and I don't play video games.

This is actual football where tactics decide a player's role, not whether they are 5'6 and like to run with the ball or not.
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Ok. Where do I start...

There's a great thread about that, started by ScholeClass, but I will still try to explain my view on the matter

The tactics are generally -playing more offensively or defensively. The idea is to score more goals than the opponents

I believe, that the individual skills of the player make him more suitable for playing a certain role in a certain area of the pitch.

Example- how to chose between Nani and Valencia on the right wing.
I think, Valencia is more of a traditional winger. One who plays wide, a meter from the side. He's got pace a good crossing and an eye for it. He's great when there's 2 forwards, therefore better in the so called 4-4-2

Nani, is more direct. He runs at the defenders and beats his man. He's great in the 4-5-1, as he sort of gives the lone forward a partner

Now this is all quite simplified. However, saying Berba is a flop or he's no good as a centre forward is nonsense.

He's got skills, which make him suitable for many games where SAF uses his strength and abilities. We need him. Simple
 
CentreForward said:
Now this is all quite simplified. However, saying Berba is a flop or he's no good as a centre forward is nonsense.

He's got skills, which make him suitable for many games where SAF uses his strength and abilities. We need him. Simple
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No one here is denying that he doesn't have skill, we are just calculating what we should expect of a 30m striker who has played for us nearly 2 seasons and has yet to prove that he is an influential player for us. It's quite simple, what we expect is that Berbs will drop deep, hold the ball, spray the ball wide and dash to the box so a winger will have someone to aim to so he can get to the end of things... We have not seen that, and it is disappointing so someone just had to take the slack and point it out so hopefully he improves. We're not here to blast him or what soever but if can improve on what we've stated he can become a better player. Surely you should agree that he doesn't get into the box enough or when he plays a pass, he just acts too much like a MF and waits for the ball to return to his feet. He demands the ball too much and hasn't positioned himself well enough, so we were just pointing that out.
 
CptMarvel said:
Any player in the squad, bar Park, can put the ball in the net given decent chances, very few in the league can create space and chances like Berbatov.
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Don't tell me all you expected Berbatov to do was create chances ? He certainly was a goal scorer and he still is, but he hasn't been doing that for us. We have Scholes/Carrick to create chances, but we are lacking players to get on the end of things with out Rooney, you'd certainly be expecting Berbatov to be doing that. Or am I worng ?
 
RedThaiDevils#7 said:
Don't tell me all you expected Berbatov to do was create chances ? He certainly was a goal scorer and he still is, but he hasn't been doing that for us. We have Scholes/Carrick to create chances, but we are lacking players to get on the end of things with out Rooney, you'd certainly be expecting Berbatov to be doing that. Or am I worng ?
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no, he has never been a prolific striker. and that's what makes his signing even more bizarre. we didn't need a player of his sort in 2008, we hardly capitalized on his attributes in 2009, we arguably played best football when he was out of the team until certain point of this season.

I don't think Fergie will sell him in a foreseeable future.
 
RedThaiDevils#7 said:
So you agree to the fact that Valencia should aim for Nani and Gibson ? When you have Berbs playing CF ? Please...
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Well yeah, Nani and Gibson are two players I'd call a threat.

I'd like Berbatov to be in there too, of course, but then it's hard to do that when he's picking up the slack from Gibson and Carrick to provide a bit of creative thrust. He can't do everything.
 
Sunny Jim said:
no, he has never been a prolific striker. and that's what makes his signing even more bizarre. we didn't need a player of his sort in 2008, we hardly capitalized on his attributes in 2009, we arguably played best football when he was out of the team until certain point of this season.

I don't think Fergie will sell him in a foreseeable future.
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So, let me get this right. You are saying that Berbs is not worth the 30m. He is not what we need. We played our best football without him. Yet if we get some money for him, we will not sell him ?
 
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