Dimitar Berbatov | 2009/10 Performances

Status
Not open for further replies.
Kiwi Red said:
......

2. I just want to see more effort from him. Today, around the 75th minute mark and it was picked up in commentary, VDS did a long throw out and Park raced upfield with the ball. Now, when VDS first threw the ball, Berbatov was on the halfway line and the highest United player up the pitch. By the time Park got to the box, Diouf had also got in front and Berbatov was now the deepest United player in the attacking half. What made it bad was that on replay, he was only AMBLING up, no effort whatsoever to get there.

Compare that to Rooney a few weeks back against Arsenal, busting a gut to get in. That tells the difference. Rooney has more energy than most I admit, but even so, Berbatov should have been working far harder to get there......
Click to expand...
:lol:so you bought the commentators bs:lol:

Berbatov wasn't ''AMBLING''. That was him at almost top speed. For that idiot commentator to claim Rooney 'busted a gut '' and Berbtov wasn't is hilarious. Rooney simply used his pace to get to the end of a similar move. He hardly strained to do it. Even is Berba strained himself he was never going to get to the end of that move before Park and Diouf. He simply ain't quick enough.
 
Kiwi Red said:
1. He is not a lone striker

2. I just want to see more effort from him. Today, around the 75th minute mark and it was picked up in commentary, VDS did a long throw out and Park raced upfield with the ball. Now, when VDS first threw the ball, Berbatov was on the halfway line and the highest United player up the pitch. By the time Park got to the box, Diouf had also got in front and Berbatov was now the deepest United player in the attacking half. What made it bad was that on replay, he was only AMBLING up, no effort whatsoever to get there.

Compare that to Rooney a few weeks back against Arsenal, busting a gut to get in. That tells the difference. Rooney has more energy than most I admit, but even so, Berbatov should have been working far harder to get there.

For me, Berba will never make it at United. He's got the ability and skill, but we don't play at his pace, so he will always be off it and we'll never see the best of him.
Click to expand...
I can't believe someone is quoting that without taking the piss. Terrible bit of commentary.
 
Brwned said:
Because Rooney can do that, Berbatov can't. Because of that we change the way in which we attack. Two completely different teams with Rooney in the team or out of it, especially when it's one striker.

It's a problem in itself but it's one that we cope with by adapting well, or we can do when our midfielders get going.
Click to expand...

Rooney can do that because he's learnt to do that, because thats what the manager wanted him to learn and become. Because obviously its better than a striker who is involved in the buildup and then not in the box to convert a cross into a goal.

If we had a midfielder to come from deep and reliably score matchwinning goals, it would be fine for Berbatov to do what he did today. But we just dont have that player and sadly neither Valencia or Nani, nor Darron Gibson are going to be the answer to it. Maybe in 2 or 3 years when they have become better players. But right now they need a Rooney in the box.

Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
The biggest problem tonight were the front 3 were creating things for themslves with no support from deep be it creatively or otherwise. . So we'd see Berba release Valencia who crosses to Nani. Nani release Berba to cross to Valencia. With us ending up either with the wrong man in the box or the man in the box having no one to knock the ball back to and easily being crowded out when trying to shoot.
Click to expand...

Right.

We dont have a midfielder coming from deep to reliably score us match winning goals week after week. Thats why we need our striker to do it, like most sides.
 
Ekeke said:
Is expecting him to be a target in the box instead of our wingers crossing for one another asking too much?

There's a reason Rooney does it. Maybe if we still had Ronaldo it would be okay, but Valencia crossing for Nani and Nani crossing for Valencia was never going to be a particularly productive route to goal.
Click to expand...

:lol: true though
 
Ekeke said:
Rooney can do that because he's learnt to do that, because thats what the manager wanted him to learn and become. Because obviously its better than a striker who is involved in the buildup and then not in the box to convert a cross into a goal.
Click to expand...

Our midfield for the most part was woeful today, had he not dropped off there wouldn't have been any build up for him to have been on the end of and this thread would now be about him being anonymous.
 
CptMarvel said:
Our midfield for the most part was woeful today, had he not dropped off there wouldn't have been any build up for him to have been on the end of and this thread would now be about him being anonymous.
Click to expand...

There wouldnt have been as much through the middle, but about the same ball work to the wings... Wings which would have had a target to aim for in the box instead of just each other.
 
Ekeke said:
There wouldnt have been as much through the middle, but about the same ball work to the wings... Wings which would have had a target to aim for in the box instead of just each other.
Click to expand...

I disagree, Valencia used him numerous times to create space then neglected the one two to break inside in favour of crossing.

EDIT: Nani did the same a lot in the first half but tended to give the ball away instead of cross.
 
CptMarvel said:
I disagree, Valencia used him numerous times to create space then neglected the one two to break inside in favour of crossing.
Click to expand...

You can use your CF on the edge of the box. He doesnt just sit inside the box all game, Rooney is involved in our buildup play too. But he didnt just go to the edge of the box, he was all over the place. Thats what he would need to do less of as a CF in a front 3. Its a role which requires some discipline so that the team can work with him correctly. Its why Rooney's game has changed when he plays that role and you dont see him all over the place or tracking back into his own half as much. There's some flexibility, but the basics of the role are : Be a focal point just outside the box and when crosses are coming into the box, be in the middle to try and meet them. He needs to weave that into his game for matches like this one.
 
Ekeke said:
You can use your CF on the edge of the box. He doesnt just sit inside the box all game, Rooney is involved in our buildup play too. But he didnt just go to the edge of the box, he was all over the place. Thats what he would need to do less of as a CF in a front 3. Its a role which requires some discipline so that the team can work with him correctly. Its why Rooney's game has changed when he plays that role and you dont see him all over the place or tracking back into his own half as much. There's some flexibility, but the basics of the role are : Be a focal point just outside the box and when crosses are coming into the box, be in the middle to try and meet them. He needs to weave that into his game for matches like this one.
Click to expand...

Ferguson knows his limitations by now and if he wasn't expecting Gibson and Carrick to be breaking into the box to provide a presence then he should consider retiring.
 
CptMarvel said:
Ferguson knows his limitations by now and if he wasn't expecting Gibson and Carrick to be breaking into the box to provide a presence then he should consider retiring.
Click to expand...

Gibson and Carrick are hardly Lampard and Hamsik are they. If our squad had the players to burst past the strikers and score goals week after week Rooney wouldnt have needed to change his game.
 
Ekeke said:
Gibson and Carrick are hardly Lampard and Hamsik are they. If our squad had the players to burst past the strikers and score goals week after week Rooney wouldnt have needed to change his game.
Click to expand...

What's your point? That getting into the box from midfield takes talent? Both could quite easily have been at least an extra body to mark.
 
CptMarvel said:
What's your point? That getting into the box from midfield takes talent? Both could quite easily have been at least an extra body to mark.
Click to expand...

It takes a player of that type. Berbatov could have been in the box and been an extra body to mark. And that responsibility is more on him than any other player when he is our 1 striker. It might be alright for him not to do that when we have a very good midfielder who's game is built around bursting into the box and scoring goals. But we dont have that so we cant expect it.
 
Got to admit, he was very good today, created and helped the team flow.

Lends credence to my theory that him and Rooney are both excellent players, but a poor overall partnership.
 
I think the key with Berbatov is that he had a very good game, if he was playing his natural role with a striker ahead of him. I can see why some may be frustrated with his tendency to drift, especially given that he was the lone striker today. But the crux of it is that he isn't a line leading centre forward. People have been laying into Diouf, but the balance of the side looked a lot better with him alongside Berbatov.

Re Berbatov's individual performance, I thought it was fine. He creates some lovely openings for us. Granted, he's not a massive goal threat, but I think it's time we come to realise that perhaps we're not going to get that from him. If he keeps producing the form he has been of late, alongside another centre forward then I've got no complaints.

His goals to game ratio is actually reasonably respectable this season, in any case. He's scored more than Anelka and one less than Arshavin, just to provide a little context.
 
Ekeke said:
Is expecting him to be a target in the box instead of our wingers crossing for one another asking too much?

There's a reason Rooney does it. Maybe if we still had Ronaldo it would be okay, but Valencia crossing for Nani and Nani crossing for Valencia was never going to be a particularly productive route to goal.
Click to expand...

It's a bit unfair, given that it is abundantly clear that it's not his natural game. He was good today, but not quite what we needed. The Owen injury has come right at the wrong time because it leaves us with no penalty box player.
 
CptMarvel said:
What's your point? That getting into the box from midfield takes talent? Both could quite easily have been at least an extra body to mark.
Click to expand...

It's one of the rarest talents in the game. To do it well that is.

Any Tom, Dick or Sally can make a run into the box, but to do it with the correct timing and occupy the right position is something that only class players have.
 
Boss said:
one less than Arshavin you say? Get in!!!!!!!
Click to expand...

Mate, you don't have to be such a cynic. I'm just providing a bit of context. I actually think that those two players are a fairly fair comparison given that they play for our nearest rivals and are probably their equivalents of Berbatov.
 
Feed Me said:
His goals to game ratio is actually reasonably respectable this season, in any case. He's scored more than Anelka and one less than Arshavin, just to provide a little context.
Click to expand...

well to be fair if you are talking about ratios you should also mention games played...

anelka played 19 scored 8 in the pl = 50% strike rate
anelka played 25 scored 12 in all comps = 48% strike rate

berbatov played 25 scord 9 in the pl = 36% strike rate
berbatov played 32 scord 9 in all comps = 28% strike rate

arshavin played 25 scored 8 in the pl = 32% strike rate
arshavin played 32 scored 10 in all comps = 31% strike rate

so basically he has done about as well as a midfielder which for a 30 million quid striker is a bit pants

and for comparison a pleyer we probably would still have if we hadnt signed berbatov

tevez played 24 scored 15 in the pl = 62% strike rate
tevez played 31 scored 21 in all comps = 67% strike rate

(all stats from wiki today)
 
Boss said:
No cynicism here mate, didn't realize he had only one less goal than the winger, I'm moonwalking, hopefully he will beat him before the season ends!!
Click to expand...

I'm not making it into a contest mate. It was just a case of making a comparison against players from similarly positioned teams.

In any case I'm not sure Arshavin is a "winger". I'd say the players both occupy similar sorts of areas on the pitch.

Anyway, I'm not looking to get into another Berbatov debate. There are too many agendas on here to have a constructive debate.
 
Feed Me said:
It's a bit unfair, given that it is abundantly clear that it's not his natural game. He was good today, but not quite what we needed. The Owen injury has come right at the wrong time because it leaves us with no penalty box player.
Click to expand...

So it was Rooney's natural game? :confused:

At Manchester United you change and improve your game, no excuses. Its not okay to just say "thats not his natural game" as it wasnt Rooney's when we started to play him through the middle on his own, or Tevez who wasnt very good at it but has put what he learnt about the role with us to good use this season at City.

When you play in the middle of a front 3 there are certain basic things you have to do and then anything else is just a cherry on top. Berbatov sadly doesnt do those basic few things, regardless what else he does. And we dont have the players to compensate for the things he doesnt do.
 
Berbatov was brilliant today. I felt he gave 100% for most of the match (seemed to be tired near the end) and his link up play was awesome - alwyas offering a pass. He also seemed like the only player that felt passing to Valencia was much better than passing to Nani - always playing brilliant balls to Valencia.

Only problem is, when crosses come in, he's nowhere to be seen. He's out lone striker, ande a big striker, I do expect him to make a run into the box to at least put defenders off (ala Park). I remember him putting a brilliant ball to Valencia, who will always put a cross in, but Berbatov stood outside the box, waiting for a short pass.

Anyhow, Berbatov played well, but not as a striker. If Rooney was in the team today, I could imagine he would have benefitted a lot from Berbatov and Valencia's link up - just see how many chances Diouf got.
 
EZee said:
well to be fair if you are talking about ratios you should also mention games played...

anelka played 19 scored 8 in the pl = 50% strike rate
anelka played 25 scored 12 in all comps = 48% strike rate

berbatov played 25 scord 9 in the pl = 36% strike rate
berbatov played 32 scord 9 in all comps = 28% strike rate

arshavin played 25 scored 8 in the pl = 32% strike rate
arshavin played 32 scored 10 in all comps = 31% strike rate

so basically he has done about as well as a midfielder which for a 30 million quid striker is a bit pants

and for comparison a pleyer we probably would still have if we hadnt signed berbatov

tevez played 24 scored 15 in the pl = 62% strike rate
tevez played 31 scored 21 in all comps = 67% strike rate

(all stats from wiki today)
Click to expand...

Right, we're not seriously having Arshavin down as a midfield player are we?
You can twist the stats a thousand ways depending on your agenda. For instance, I can make it goals to starts. I didn't want to get into that, so I just put goals instead and they are all at a similar level.

The whole Tevez argument is getting tiresome. And his defenders are getting increasingly irritating. You speak as though Berbatov is the big bad wolf who came in and unsettled Saint Tevez. So what, we're never supposed to bring new players into the squad because we may upset current players? No sorry, I'm not having that. Tevez threw his toys out of the pram because he had extra competition. He proved his selfish streak by failing to accept the rotation issue. His apologists claim that his dire form over the entire of last season was because he was unsettled. Sorry buddy, but if he'd have turned it on any where near what he did in his debut season, the offer from us would have been on the table a lot sooner.

Tevez isn't here because we left it so late to offer him a deal. We left it so late, because his form and attitude last season had been crap. All of that is totally independent of Berbatov, so I don't know why you're dragging him into it.

In any case, we haven't missed Carlos Tevez.
 
Ekeke said:
So it was Rooney's natural game? :confused:

At Manchester United you change and improve your game, no excuses. Its not okay to just say "thats not his natural game" as it wasnt Rooney's when we started to play him through the middle on his own, or Tevez who wasnt very good at it but has put what he learnt about the role with us to good use this season at City.

When you play in the middle of a front 3 there are certain basic things you have to do and then anything else is just a cherry on top. Berbatov sadly doesnt do those basic few things, regardless what else he does. And we dont have the players to compensate for the things he doesnt do.
Click to expand...

Rooney is an exceptional talent - somewhere in there, everyone always had an idea that he was capable of scoring more. He had shown flashes of it, but was inconsistent. Probably down to his age. Berbatov is nearly 30 now - we're not really likely to see him change his spots now.

The bit in bold hits the nail on the head. There is a lot of misplaced frustration being aimed in Berbatov's direction at the moment. It's not his fault that Rooney and Owen are both injured and we have no one else to fill the breach. So he played in a role that, in my opinion, is alien to him. He was sub-par in the first half, but more effective in the second. As soon as Diouf came on, the balance looked better and Berbatov was able to focus on his natural game.

Very harsh, but unsurprising, criticism all in all.
 
Feed Me said:
Right, we're not seriously having Arshavin down as a midfield player are we?
.
Click to expand...

yes...

and if you compare berbaflops strike ratio of 36% pl and 28% all comps to other strikers such as:
rooney 85% pl and 80% all comps
van persi 63% pl and 57% all comps
anelka 50% pl and 48% all comps
torres 76% pl and 56% all comps
tevez 62% pl and 67% all comps
its pants... its certainly not what I would call reasonable from a 30 million quid striker
 
EZee said:
yes...

and if you compare berbaflops strike ratio of 36% pl and 28% all comps

to other strikers such as
rooney 85% pl and 80% all comps
van persi 63% pl and 57% all comps
anelka 50% pl and 48% all comps
torres 76% pl and 56% all comps
tevez 62% pl and 67% all comps
its pants... its certainly not what I would call reasonable from a 30 million quid striker
Click to expand...

See, I don't understand all of this strike rate nonsense.

Berbatov has scored 9 in 24 league appearances (16 starts).
Anelka has scored 8 in 24 league appearances (23 stars).

Have I missed something?
 
Feed Me said:
Rooney is an exceptional talent - somewhere in there, everyone always had an idea that he was capable of scoring more. He had shown flashes of it, but was inconsistent. Probably down to his age. Berbatov is nearly 30 now - we're not really likely to see him change his spots now.
Click to expand...

The main reason Rooney didnt score more before was because every season he'd miss a chunk of matches through injury. He now scores goals in a different way to before, but there's nothing to say that had we not moved him closer to the goal, he couldnt have bettered his goalscoring in the way he was playing before if he just stayed fit like he has for almost all this season. I mean he's been leading the line for over 2 seasons now, another 2 seasons continuing to do what he did before and he'd have improved his tallies there as well. Ronaldo could score 42 off the wing afterall, we're not a side where you have to be the CF to score loads of goals.

The bit in bold hits the nail on the head. There is a lot of misplaced frustration being aimed in Berbatov's direction at the moment. It's not his fault that Rooney and Owen are both injured and we have no one else to fill the breach. So he played in a role that, in my opinion, is alien to him. He was sub-par in the first half, but more effective in the second. As soon as Diouf came on, the balance looked better and Berbatov was able to focus on his natural game.

Very harsh, but unsurprising, criticism all in all.
Click to expand...

Rooney and Owen playing would have meant a change in formation. What I'm saying is he doesnt do the basics of playing up front on his own and we dont have Lampard for him to flick the ball onto and as such flick the scoring burden onto week after week. If we had a top midfield goalscorer like that you could get by with a lone front man who only looks to create for others as they could eat up the space he leaves and get the goals. We dont have that, we knew we didnt have that when we signed him and we knew we didnt have that when he was picked to play the match. So he has to try and fulfill the teams needs from its CF in a front 3. And thats someone who plays with discipline and gets on the end of things in the box. If he's not able to do that he's not a very good backup for Rooney.

This is a completely different subject to when we play 4-4-2 though. Because as long as Rooney is playing more disciplined and getting on the end of things, he can wander around and focus more on creating than scoring. It just doesnt fit with our 4-3-3. And not every team can have a fantastic goalscoring midfielder.
 
EZee said:
well to be fair if you are talking about ratios you should also mention games played...

anelka played 19 scored 8 in the pl = 50% strike rate
anelka played 25 scored 12 in all comps = 48% strike rate

berbatov played 25 scord 9 in the pl = 36% strike rate
berbatov played 32 scord 9 in all comps = 28% strike rate

arshavin played 25 scored 8 in the pl = 32% strike rate
arshavin played 32 scored 10 in all comps = 31% strike rate

so basically he has done about as well as a midfielder which for a 30 million quid striker is a bit pants

and for comparison a pleyer we probably would still have if we hadnt signed berbatov

tevez played 24 scored 15 in the pl = 62% strike rate
tevez played 31 scored 21 in all comps = 67% strike rate

(all stats from wiki today)
Click to expand...

Completely meaningless stats when you bear in mind Berbatov is the only player out of that lot who regularly features off the bench. In terms of goals per minutes on the pitch, Berbatov has been much more prolific than Arshavin and Anelka and only a tiny bit less than Tevez (who takes penalties)

By all means start a debate about WHY he doesn't start as many games but don't post a load of misleading stats without putting them in context. Shite like that makes it seem as though you have an agenda against a United player. Which is well fecking weird.
 
Berbatov was good today but it was a 7/10 performance if we want to put it bluntly. Certainly one of the better players on our side but really that doesn't say much considering how abject everyone else was. If we're going to call him brilliant because of today then I really can't believe how low the expectation is of him. He certainly isn't a "Berbaflop" but if he was to leave in the summer having produced what he has produced so far he would go down as one of the worser buys from Ferguson.

I personally don't think he can play on his own against any side with a decent defence. When Diouf came on his game seemed to pick up as he had someone to create chances for even if the player missed them all. As I kept banging on about in the matchday thread I'd rather we were missing chances than not creating any which we spent the best part of 70 minutes doing or rather not doing.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Completely meaningless stats when you bear in mind Berbatov is the only player out of that lot who regularly features off the bench.

By all means start a debate about WHY he doesn't start as many games but don't post a load of misleading stats without putting them in context. Shite like that makes it seem as though you have an agenda against a United player. Which is well fecking weird.
Click to expand...

To be honest, it's reached absurd levels. The use of the name "Berbaflop" is, quite frankly, an embarrassment.

It's not only him though. Gibson is another who takes absolutely unwarranted dogs abuse. Not the most special player - no where near as limited as some people on here make him out to be though. It's the default setting though: 0-0 after 30 mins: "Get Gibson off - he's shite."

A few Caftards support individual players as opposed to a team.
 
Feed Me said:
See, I don't understand all of this strike rate nonsense.

Berbatov has scored 9 in 24 league appearances (16 starts).
Anelka has scored 8 in 24 league appearances (23 stars).

Have I missed something?
Click to expand...

yes... his name is berbaflop
 
FlawlessThaw said:
Berbatov was good today but it was a 7/10 performance if we want to put it bluntly. Certainly one of the better players on our side but really that doesn't say much considering how abject everyone else was. If we're going to call him brilliant because of today then I really can't believe how low the expectation is of him. He certainly isn't a "Berbaflop" but if he was to leave in the summer having produced what he has produced so far he would go down as one of the worser buys from Ferguson.

I personally don't think he can play on his own against any side with a decent defence. When Diouf came on his game seemed to pick up as he had someone to create chances for even if the player missed them all. As I kept banging on about in the matchday thread I'd rather we were missing chances than not creating any which we spent the best part of 70 minutes doing or rather not doing.
Click to expand...

I'd agree with a lot of that. He was clearly more comfortable with a striker alongside him, forcing the Wolves backline further towards their own goal.

It's misplaced criticism to have a go at Berbatov for our lack of a more conventional centre forward today.

Berbatov's been quietly going along very nicely for a couple of months. He's been making some telling contributions. We missed Rooney today though - naturally.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.