Declan Rice

[SquishyMcSquish]

Didn't he win both the player of the year and the players player of the year the year before?

.

Jesus christ the point is he was great in the championship but has struggled to be nearly as effective at PL level. It's not like he had one great season in the top tier and then a quiet season the year after.

It's yet to be seen whether he can replicate his championship form at PL level. If he could do so, then yes you have a top midfielder on your hands. But you could say the exact same thing about the likes of Tom Cairney or Jack Grealish.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Rice is another Schneiderlin . Very good at breaking up play but on the ball isn't great . He is a million miles off what we need to go forward

And I think Schneiderlin looked far better than Rice when he was at Southampton and look how that turned out.

 

[Adnan]

Aggressive haha if this is me you are referring to, didn't realise a difference of opinion is now aggressive.

Love this forum, get the dummies out for the children haha

I wasn't referring to you lad..

You've put your points across in a nice way. I wasn't serious either with what I said about being agressive which was aimed at thd person who brought up Mascherano.

 

[Cassidy]

It's pretty simple in the sense that playing in the Argentinian League needs to be factored in when comparing them at the same age. But it seems people factor in hindsight instead, which is why my answer to the other poster is then responded to in a aggressive tone.

It isn't hindsight that is the issue
It is about opportunity nothing about playing in the PL at 19 when you are English makes you better than an Argentinian player playing in the Argentinian league at the same age. You may be better you may not be. It isn't an indication until later on in age because it is much easier to play in the PL at 19 if you are English over any other nationality irrespective of talent

 

[Adnan]

And I think Schneiderlin looked far better than Rice when he was at Southampton and look how that turned out.

How old was Schneiderlin when he looked good for Southampton?

 

[Adnan]

It isn't hindsight that is the issue
It is about opportunity nothing about playing in the PL at 19 when you are English makes you better than an Argentinian player playing in the Argentinian league at the same age. You may be better you may not be. It isn't an indication until later on in age because it is much easier to play in the PL at 19 if you are English over any other race irrespective of talent

The question was, is Rice better than Mascherano at the same age? I think you could easily make a case for Rice being better at the same age. More appearances and more productive at the same age.

 

[StrettyEnder07]

Jesus christ the point is he was great in the championship but has struggled to be nearly as effective at PL level. It's not like he had one great season in the top tier and then a quiet season the year after.

It's yet to be seen whether he can replicate his championship form at PL level. If he could do so, then yes you have a top midfielder on your hands. But you could say the exact same thing about the likes of Tom Cairney or Jack Grealish.

First of all lad calm yourself down, don't want to be giving yourself a heart attack getting all emotional over a Man United forum.

Second off all, think he had a pretty dam good season last year, you think he flopped and couldn't carry his form into last season, I disagree, you don't rate him, I do, big fecking whoop.

You girls seem to have some compulsive need to make everyone agree with you, get over yourself, I disagree with you and Adnan, no need to get upset and let out your inner keyboard warrior haha

Few little petals on here today hey

 

[StrettyEnder07]

I wasn't referring to you lad..

You've put your points across in a nice way. I wasn't serious either with what I said about being agressive which was aimed at thd person who brought up Mascherano.

Haha I thought I was being ok, was like come on only a discussion, if everyone agreed on everything this place would be dull as hell

 

[StrettyEnder07]

I wasn't referring to you lad..

You've put your points across in a nice way. I wasn't serious either with what I said about being agressive which was aimed at thd person who brought up Mascherano.

Oh and I think your Spurs mate is a tad upset haha my bad!

 

[Cassidy]

The question was, is Rice better than Mascherano at the same age? I think you could easily make a case for Rice being better at the same age. More appearances and more productive at the same age.

Im not so sure.
At the same age Mascherano had been voted best player at the Toulon tournament, won gold at the olympics and was already regarded as one of the best players in his age group in his position

It is all about perspective had he been English and at Westham maybe he would have played more?

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

First of all lad calm yourself down, don't want to be giving yourself a heart attack getting all emotional over a Man United forum.

Second off all, think he had a pretty dam good season last year, you think he flopped and couldn't carry his form into last season, I disagree, you don't rate him, I do, big fecking whoop.

You girls seem to have some compulsive need to make everyone agree with you, get over yourself, I disagree with you and Adnan, no need to get upset and let out your inner keyboard warrior haha

Few little petals on here today hey

What the feck are you on about?

The only one getting heated/upset here is you. Who is being a keyboard warrior? Bizarre.

It's obviously fine if you rate him, but there's a clear difference between having a great season in the championship and one in the Premier League. Neves wasn't a flop last season but he was simply decent, nothing more or less. IMO he needs to be showing more to earn a move to a big club, especially at the price Wolves would demand for him. You disagree? That's totally cool.

 

[StrettyEnder07]

What the feck are you on about?

The only one getting heated/upset here is you. Who is being a keyboard warrior? Bizarre.

It's obviously fine if you rate him, but there's a clear difference between having a great season in the championship and one in the Premier League. Neves wasn't a flop last season but he was simply decent, nothing more or less. IMO he needs to be showing more to earn a move to a big club, especially at the price Wolves would demand for him. You disagree? That's totally cool.

Have a read back through mine and Adnan's comments, no arguments, no aggression, no kick off, all replies sound and just discussing, you come along "jesus christ rant rant rant" relax yourself lad.

You think that is me getting heated and upset, ha ok lad.

Yeah for a 22 year old CM who has had two seasons in England, I think he has done very well, think he has all the tools to be a superb CM and I think he will probably move to a bigger club next summer, be it us or somewhere like Arsenal (or abroad).

The only bizarre thing is you joining the discussion with a rant, very bizarre.

 

[Ekeke]

Watched the whole game today. I was impressed. However it's pretty clear he is at the same level - if not below - as Scott. He does have a more commanding ability when dribbling with the ball but no where near the vision, range and intricate ball control that Scott has.

Thats only looking at offensive skills. Rice is a better defender. McTominay is a better attacker

 

[settembrini]

Rice was great last season and has started this season well too. I'd like him at United although the cost would obviously be a huge issue.

 

[Ekeke]

And I think Schneiderlin looked far better than Rice when he was at Southampton and look how that turned out.

So Liverpool shouldnt have signed VVD because he was another Lovren at Southampton?

 

[Adnan]

Im not so sure.
At the same age Mascherano had been voted best player at the Toulon tournament, won gold at the olympics and was already regarded as one of the best players in his age group in his position

It is all about perspective had he been English and at Westham maybe he would have played more?

Rice was at a disadvantage regards to playing for ROI at youth level. Had he been playing for England at youth level then i'm sure he would've been basking in the glory of winning the u20 WC. But a case for Rice can be made due to his club form.

I'm also not someone who is a big fan of Rice either but do admire the way he's broke through and is doing well. Thought i'd let you know cos you're one of the more sensible posters on here.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

Have a read back through mine and Adnan's comments, no arguments, no aggression, no kick off, all replies sound and just discussing, you come along "jesus christ rant rant rant" relax yourself lad.

You think that is me getting heated and upset, ha ok lad.

Yeah for a 22 year old CM who has had two seasons in England, I think he has done very well, think he has all the tools to be a superb CM and I think he will probably move to a bigger club next summer, be it us or somewhere like Arsenal (or abroad).

The only bizarre thing is you joining the discussion with a rant, very bizarre.

I'm so confused. You were already crying at @Adnan before I even arrived. I said jesus christ (because you implied a great season in the championship was the same as the PL) and then wrote three sentences .. apparently that qualifies as a rant.

I think you need to take a step back and chill out. Nobody is ranting or getting heated aside from you.

 

[bucky]

How old was Schneiderlin when he looked good for Southampton?

22 to 25, I think.

 

[Robbie Boy]

So Liverpool shouldnt have signed VVD because he was another Lovren at Southampton?

Not sure what sense this makes? Lovern was a donkey at Lyon and I feel he was pretty overrated at Southampton. VVD was absolutely brilliant for Celtic, had plenty of standout games for them in the CL and was an absolute colossus for Southampton. Not sure what you're getting at?

The other poster brought up Schneiderlin and I pointed out that he looked a far better talent at Southampton than Rice does at West Ham. I know I'm upsetting people, and I'm really sorry and all, but I don't rate Declan Rice, like whatsoever.

 

[Adnan]

22 to 25, I think.

Cheers mate..

 

[Cassidy]

Rice was at a disadvantage regards to playing for ROI at youth level. Had he been playing for England at youth level then i'm sure he would've been basking in the glory of winning the u20 WC. But a case for Rice can be made due to his club form.

I'm also not someone who is a big fan of Rice either but do admire the way he's broke through and is doing well. Thought i'd let you know cos you're one of the more sensible posters on here.

Now you are seeing the point. There are many factors which you have to take into account. Rice being English meaning he was at a PL club for instance. We will see how Rice ends up in 5 years and see if he is better.

It is difficult to say he is better at the same age due to the fact they grew up and played in different leagues at those ages so it is difficult to compare.

Just like you say Rice could have won an u20 WC, maybe Masch could have been playing for WestHam at 18 if he was English

 

[Adnan]

Now you are seeing the point. There are many factors which you have to take into account. Rice being English meaning he was at a PL club for instance. We will see how Rice ends up in 5 years and see if he is better.

It is difficult to say he is better at the same age due to the fact they grew up and played in different leagues at those ages so it is difficult to compare.

Just like you say Rice could have won an u20 WC, maybe Masch could have been playing for WestHam at 18 if he was English

But Mascherano was Argentinian and playing at a club from within his own country too. Rice didn't have a nationality advantage. Argentinian clubs throw youngsters in to the first team even earlier because their league is a exporter of talent.

 

[ivaldo]

Rice in his teenage years has achieved so much and is putting in top performances in the EPL currently and is a England International to boot. His competition is irrelevant because I know first hand hand how difficult it is for a young player to break through at first team level nevermind cement their place in the first 11 and then respresent their country. You obviously don't.

Neves didn't receive a single vote from their fans. He was the only only player not to receive a vote and was never in the reckoning. But you wanted us to sign him? Did he impress you in the Championship?

And it's clear to me that Rice is a DM in the destroyer mould. But what is it, you see that has you convinced he doesn't have the quality required to play for a big club?

Yes it is relevant. If he has no one to compete with then it makes those achievements significantly easier to achieve. You know this. Or do you think Daniel Arzani should be considered at the same level? He was at the world cup with Australia at 19. Apparently, context doesn't matter, competition doesn't matter.

Don't be so silly. Anyone who makes it to any level of professional football has achieved a great deal. What is it with you and using warped logic. I'm still waiting for those alternative players.

So? Do those same fans want rid of him? Do those same fans not value him incredibly highly? They voted him player of the year the previous season. No comment on Rice losing out to the superstar that is Fabianski?

As I've also stated, I wanted an alternative to Matic. I wanted someone capable of playing deep and using the ball. If I wanted someone to crash around and put their foot in I'm sure Rice would fit the bill, as would plenty of destroyers in the prem.

He isn't talented enough? If you're going to base your game on winning the ball back and breaking up play, you're going to have to be incredibly good at it. He isn't, nor is the rest of his game good enough to compensate. As soon as he steps up 'being solid' is going to cut it. I have seen nothing from him to suggest he can make that step.

 

[Cassidy]

But Mascherano was Argentinian and playing at a club from within his own country too. Rice didn't have a nationality advantage. Argentinian clubs throw youngsters in to the first team even earlier because their league is a exporter of talent.

I was speaking more to the point of him playing in a better league which you pointed to before.
Now with regards to this point again it is subjective, did River have a very good player ahead of him? It is about opportunity.

You cannot use that to say he is better because there are too many other factors to consider.

 

[Eckers99]

Completely different players as McTominay is a pressing box to box player with lots of stamina and very disciplined whereas Rice is a pure defensive midfielder who’s job is simply to break up play and protect the defence, if anything as a pairing in a midfield 2 or both being played alongside Pogba in a 3 in hard away games they’d be perfect.

McTominay will never be a pure defensive midfielder nor will he have the range of passing to be a deep lying playmaker like a Carrick or Pirlo therefore we need to bring in someone who is purely a defensive midfielder or a deep lying playmaker who shields the defence, Garner isn’t yet ready but signing Rice gives us great options tactically long term.

If we were to sign Rice we’d have Rice, Pogba, McTominay, Fred, Pereira, Gomes and Garner with Maddison maybe also brought in so long term that’s a very flexible and diverse group for selection (I’m not including Matic as he’ll be gone by next summer at the latest) for our midfield.

Teams that park bus we could go (if Maddison signed for us) with Maddison - Rice - Pogba with Pereira/Fred - Garner - Gomes as back up, in hard away or tight games you’ve got McTominay - Rice - Pogba but no matter what we’d be covered for all possibilities and at the ages of all the players I’ve said they’re a long term group.

Honestly the number of posters who compare Rice and Mctominay, despite them having totally different midfield roles, is mind-boggling. Makes me genuinely wonder how many of them have actually seen him play.

 

[Mainoldo]

Your question was is Rice better than Mascherano at the same age?

Now to answer that, what is the criteria we should use to judge them at River Plate and West Ham?

Your eyes and brain. Mascherano had fair more game intelligence, passing ability and strength at 19 than Declan Rice currently has now. Which is why he made it into an Argentina midfielder consisting of Riquelme; Veron; Aimar; Cambiasso and Gago. Maybe you should compare that to who Rice is up against for England.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Honestly the number of posters who compare Rice and Mctominay, despite them having totally different midfield roles, is mind-boggling. Makes me genuinely wonder how many of them have actually seen him play.

Not as bad as the ones comparing him to Neves to try make a point of how amazing he is. All the while, Neves may play deep but he’s not stylistically comparable to Rice. Makes me genuinely wonder how many of them have actually seen him play.

Bet you’re in the crew that think Rice is nothing like Dier?

 

[Cassidy]

Not as bad as the ones comparing him to Neves to try make a point of how amazing he is. All the while, Neves may play deep but he’s not stylistically comparable to Rice. Makes me genuinely wonder how many of them have actually seen him play.

Bet you’re in the crew that think Rice is nothing like Dier?

That is irrelevant since quite a few of those comparing are saying they do not want Rice at United for that exact reason.

You can compare any midfielder to another they don't have to have the same role or be stylistically the same

 

[StrettyEnder07]

I'm so confused. You were already crying at @Adnan before I even arrived. I said jesus christ (because you implied a great season in the championship was the same as the PL) and then wrote three sentences .. apparently that qualifies as a rant.

I think you need to take a step back and chill out. Nobody is ranting or getting heated aside from you.

Crying at Adnan? Really? Wanna show me where I shred a tear I am intrigued?

Starting a sentence with "Jesus christ" is not exactly starting off calm and chilled now is it.

You're so confused over a few messages, not exactly rocket science to understand is it, maybe it is for you, who knows.

You are constantly on a United forum when a Spurs fan so maybe you do get confused quite easily

 

[Robbie Boy]

That is irrelevant since quite a few of those comparing are saying they do not want Rice at United for that exact reason.

You can compare any midfielder to another they don't have to have the same role or be stylistically the same

Eh? It’s more the ones defending Rice that are throwing his name around.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

Crying at Adnan? Really? Wanna show me where I shred a tear I am intrigued?

Starting a sentence with "Jesus christ" is not exactly starting off calm and chilled now is it.

You're so confused over a few messages, not exactly rocket science to understand is it, maybe it is for you, who knows.

You are constantly on a United forum when a Spurs fan so maybe you do get confused quite easily

This is boring. You're very sensitive for some reason and lashing out just because your position got questioned, I have no idea why .. but I'm done with it. Especially since you've taken up the very boring rival fan position.

 

[Adnan]

Yes it is relevant. If he has no one to compete with then it makes those achievements significantly easier to achieve. You know this. Or do you think Daniel Arzani should be considered at the same level? He was at the world cup with Australia at 19. Apparently, context doesn't matter, competition doesn't matter.

Don't be so silly. Anyone who makes it to any level of professional football has achieved a great deal. What is it with you and using warped logic. I'm still waiting for those alternative players.

So? Do those same fans want rid of him? Do those same fans not value him incredibly highly? They voted him player of the year the previous season. No comment on Rice losing out to the superstar that is Fabianski?

As I've also stated, I wanted an alternative to Matic. I wanted someone capable of playing deep and using the ball. If I wanted someone to crash around and put their foot in I'm sure Rice would fit the bill, as would plenty of destroyers in the prem.

He isn't talented enough? If you're going to base your game on winning the ball back and breaking up play, you're going to have to be incredibly good at it. He isn't, nor is the rest of his game good enough to compensate. As soon as he steps up 'being solid' is going to cut it. I have seen nothing from him to suggest he can make that step.

Azrani..

Rice plays in the EPL and has been doing remarkably well for a kid his age since he was a teen. And you bring up some dude I've never heard of from Australia. Rice is a a very good ball winner for a young player period. He's performing in a tough league at such a young age and is a England international. And even if he wasn't a England International it wouldn't change my opion on him. So your question regarding alternatives is a moot point that isn't important in the grand scheme of things. You've drawn your conclusions on him as a 19 year old which proves your naivety.

Fabianski winning player of the year was fully deserved. Rice was also very good for the Hamners so not sure what you're trying to prove. Neves winning player of the year in the Championship didn't help him in the EPL where he struggled in alot of games and was carried by Moutinho and co. Rice was better comfortably last season.

He' actually a very good ball winner and really young at 20 with so much scope for further improvement. Not sure how anyone could write him off like you've done when he was a teen.

 

[Adnan]

Your eyes and brain. Mascherano had fair more game intelligence, passing ability and strength at 19 than Declan Rice currently has now. Which is why he made it into an Argentina midfielder consisting of Riquelme; Veron; Aimar; Cambiasso and Gago. Maybe you should compare that to who Rice is up against for England.

Mascherano had more strength at 5'9 than the 6'1 Rice? I stopped reading at that point..

 

[davidmichael]

Honestly the number of posters who compare Rice and Mctominay, despite them having totally different midfield roles, is mind-boggling. Makes me genuinely wonder how many of them have actually seen him play.

I know, it’s the same as people wanting us to play McTominay as an out and out defensive midfielder just so we don’t have to play Matic despite the fact McTominay isn’t that type of player at all.

 

[StrettyEnder07]

This is boring. You're very sensitive for some reason and lashing out just because your position got questioned, I have no idea why .. but I'm done with it. Especially since you've taken up the very boring rival fan position.

I'm very sensitive haha yeah I can tell from all my replies, extremely sensitive and I'm now lashing out as well haha, ok mate if you say so, seem to be making it up as you go along but all good, knock yourself out with it mate.

Was just asking the question, would never spend half my day sat on a Spurs forum arguing about a Wolves player but that's just me.

 

[Eckers99]

Not as bad as the ones comparing him to Neves to try make a point of how amazing he is. All the while, Neves may play deep but he’s not stylistically comparable to Rice. Makes me genuinely wonder how many of them have actually seen him play.

Bet you’re in the crew that think Rice is nothing like Dier?

Neves is nothing like Rice. Stylistically they're chalk and cheese and Rice has been consistently good/ very good in the Premier League.

Rice and Dier both have/ had the same function but I think Rice is better on the ball, plays a better long pass, reads the game better and is less of a cnut. And Rice is much younger, so should improve considerably over the next 3 or 4 years.

Bet you're in the Irish crew?

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

I'm very sensitive haha yeah I can tell from all my replies, extremely sensitive and I'm now lashing out as well haha, ok mate if you say so, seem to be making it up as you go along but all good, knock yourself out with it mate.

Was just asking the question, would never spend half my day sat on a Spurs forum arguing about a Wolves player but that's just me.

 

[Adnan]

Not as bad as the ones comparing him to Neves to try make a point of how amazing he is. All the while, Neves may play deep but he’s not stylistically comparable to Rice. Makes me genuinely wonder how many of them have actually seen him play.

Bet you’re in the crew that think Rice is nothing like Dier?

Him not stylistically being comparable to Neves doesn't mean different profile of players can't occupy the DM role as a Deep lying playmaker or a destroyer.

 

[ivaldo]

Azrani..

Rice plays in the EPL and has been doing remarkably well for a kid his age since he was a teen. And you bring up some dude I've never heard of from Australia. Rice is a a very good ball winner for a young player period. He's performing in a tough league at such a young age and is a England international. And even if he wasn't a England International it wouldn't change my opion on him. So your question regarding alternatives is a moot point that isn't important in the grand scheme of things. You've drawn your conclusions on him as a 19 year old which proves your naivety.

Fabianski winning player of the year was fully deserved. Rice was also very good for the Hamners so not sure what you're trying to prove. Neves winning player of the year in the Championship didn't help him in the EPL where he struggled in alot of games and was carried by Moutinho and co. Rice was better comfortably last season.

He' actually a very good ball winner and really young at 20 with so much scope for further improvement. Not sure how anyone could write him off like you've done when he was a teen.

Hang about. You just said competition is irrelevant. And that's just it. You don't want to apply this logic when it contradicts your point. Apparently, the fact Rice has no competition (still waiting for some alternatives) for England is irrelevant, but you don't want to broaden on that. Of course comparing Azrani and Rice is stupid, but so is ignoring the absolute dearth in competition he has for places and holding that up as some de facto example of how good he is. It's a moot point because it doesn't suit the point you're making. You know it and I know it.

He didn't struggle in a lot of games and he wasn't carried by Moutinho. He played well. As much as you hate it, Neves was and still is regarded more highly than Rice. Again, I'm not enamoured by the player, I merely wanted a ball playing alternative to the statue we had in his place.

He's a good ball winner, not great. I've not written him off, I'm just not saying what an incredible talent he is and suggesting he can play for a top club based on what he's done so far. Apparently, being decent in the tackle is enough for you. Football has moved on pal. He's going to have to considerably improve his ability on or off the ball to make a career at the top level.

 

[Stevondo8]

I’d take Rice. He may not have the passing range as some but as a defensive midfielder, he can protect the back 4 properly and he’s good enough on the ball to give it to those around/ahead of him. Might not add much in terms of assists or goals directly, but feel he’d allow others around him to push on more.

West Ham up next in the league...I’ll be watching him closely.