Looks quite neat and promising, maybe we don’t need to buy Longstaff.
Declan Rice
- Thread starter roonster09
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Hows he compared to Dier ? Forget the age difference, but skillset remains the same to me.
I would hope we don't end up going for either of them, and suspect we probably won't. Age is immaterial when Rice lacks the quality to make it as a top level midfielder, hence the Dier comparison.
Better passer and more mobile in my opinion. I think he's a better DM than Dier already.
Completely different players as McTominay is a pressing box to box player with lots of stamina and very disciplined whereas Rice is a pure defensive midfielder who’s job is simply to break up play and protect the defence, if anything as a pairing in a midfield 2 or both being played alongside Pogba in a 3 in hard away games they’d be perfect.
McTominay will never be a pure defensive midfielder nor will he have the range of passing to be a deep lying playmaker like a Carrick or Pirlo therefore we need to bring in someone who is purely a defensive midfielder or a deep lying playmaker who shields the defence, Garner isn’t yet ready but signing Rice gives us great options tactically long term.
If we were to sign Rice we’d have Rice, Pogba, McTominay, Fred, Pereira, Gomes and Garner with Maddison maybe also brought in so long term that’s a very flexible and diverse group for selection (I’m not including Matic as he’ll be gone by next summer at the latest) for our midfield.
Teams that park bus we could go (if Maddison signed for us) with Maddison - Rice - Pogba with Pereira/Fred - Garner - Gomes as back up, in hard away or tight games you’ve got McTominay - Rice - Pogba but no matter what we’d be covered for all possibilities and at the ages of all the players I’ve said they’re a long term group.
Rice has been good enough to cement a place at EPL and International level as a teenager but lacks quality? If anything, Rice has shown he has alot of quality for the DM role.
I personally wanted us to sign Fabinho from Monaco before we signed Matic. Fabinho currently is amongst the best DM's in the league and 20 year old Declan Rice isn't far behind if @SquishyMcSquish 's posts are anything to go by.
There's a real dearth in quality in that position for England, which is why Dier has 40 caps.
There is a shortage for sure, but that still doesn't mean the answer was a teenager from the West Ham youth setup who to this day keeps performing well in probably the toughest league in the world.
Dier has 40 caps, because believe it or not, he was actually pretty good for a few years. He came through the SCP youth system and was highly rated.
Agree with this. Also all over the place without a midfield partner which has to be considered. Whoever buys him has to think carefully about their plan. Doing well for his age, good character too but £90m no chance. All over McGinn though. What an engine that guy has got with some quality too.
That's relative. West Ham have been desperate to promote youth graduates to the first team for a while, which is why Oxford was heralded as some kind of incredible CB and given game. I mean, just who is competing for Rice's position right now? Who are the alternatives?
Diet has not suddenly turned terrible. It's come to a point where Spurs need something more than just a converted CB in their midfield.
I wouldn't want him at that price though. Would be silly spending that amount on any DM in our current state tbh.
I'm a fan of him but feck signing him for £80-90m. That's utterly ridiculous.
The point I made was that rice is a talented DM and he's consistently shown for awhile that he has alot of potential as a DM destroyer. He's actually been far better than the likes of Neves who seems to be a Caf favourite and someone you've even given the thumbs up to regards a move to United, but has been average at best in the EPL and that's being kind to him.
Him not having any competition at NT level isn't his fault. He still had to perform well in probably the toughest in the world for Southgate to select him which shouldn't be forgotten.
Mascherano was a well established and sort after player before he came to England. His career didn’t start at West Ham. He made his international debut at 18!!! Making the DM his own and was one of the sort after DM across Europe only for the consortium that owned him and Tevez to decide his early career.
Don’t chat nonsense about Rice being ahead of him.
Mascherano was playing at River Plate at 19 in the Argentinian League and Rice is playing in the tougher English league. Rice playing well in a tougher league gives him the edge at the same age. It's pretty simple.
Yup, Mascherano was very well known in Europe before he arrived at West Ham and at the time it was seen as a major coup from West Ham. He’s obviously a Rice fanboy so naturally he’ll make shit up to suit his agenda. This is the same poster who made literally hundreds of posts about how great Longstaff is, over the summer. Treat his opinions with extreme trepidation.
I have done and no, he hasn't been far better. Being a decent destroyer is all well and good for a team like West Ham, but if he ever wants to excel at a higher level he needs to do more than that. What he's achieved and how he's performed so far has been wildly over exaggerated. What has he done to play him over any other destroyer in the DM? He's a dime a dozen DM.
It was in response to this:
So who is he competing with for that position? Who are the alternatives?
Do you want to discuss Mascherano or are you gonna carry on with your childish nonsense?
For that price I'd rather someone with genuine quality on the ball.
You seem to be fixated with his competition at NT level. Him being a first team player as a teenager for club and country is impressive in it's self. The competition is irrelevant in this case.
Neves has consistently produced underwhelming performances in the EPL and was attrocious against Huddersfield in particular. The Wolves faithful on their forum had a player of the year poll and guess who was the only player not to receive a vote? You guessed it, Neves. I even shared the link on this forum. Rice was much better last season it wasn't even close.
No one has seen enough of him, as he hasn't played enough, and hasn't reached a level yet to show people what he can do.
The feeling on here last year was that Scott McT would never be good enough to be more than a squad player, yet he's been our best player this season.
All we can go by for now with Longstaff are opinions from experts who've had a good look at him and say he's the real deal, who will become a household name once he gets more games under his belt.
In saying that, Ole might not sign another central mid, in the hope Garner will be starting games from the start of next season. We have Mejbri too coming through.
This is key for me. I still think he's lucked out getting the DM spot. If he came through at a top side, he'd still be a CB. Not to mention his only England competition in his role is another converted CB and Delph.
I’m not fixated. You’ve made a point about NT level, I’ve responded to that with a reasonable request, and now you’re desperate not to engage in it any further. You’re happy to make the point but not discuss the context. Of course it’s relevant. How is it not relevant? Southgate had an MO of bringing youngsters into the first team. Playing Rice in a position we are woefully understocked in says more about England’s struggles to find quality CMs than it is about Rice’s ability. He’s a decent player, but he’s nothing special, and is certainly the weak link in that side. The reason why you STILL refuse to list the alternatives is because you know they are ‘Dier.’ Excuse the pun.
That’s great. Not being voted player of the season doesn’t suddenly make that player poor, nor does it somehow prove Rice is superior. I mean Christ, Rice was seen off by bleedin’ Fabianski was he not? I’m not over struck on Neves by the way, I was just eager to see anyone but Matic start in that position for us, and having someone with genuine ability on the ball is far more important for us in our current state than a run of the mill destroyer.
That’s why I think it’s better to sign Rice than Longstaff as from what has been said by experts Longstaff is the exact same player as Garner which is a deep lying playmaker who dictates from a position just in front of the defence akin to Carrick, why spend £50 million or whatever Newcastle want for Longstaff when Garner is as highly rated and already our player ?
I just don’t see the point in buying players to stockpile one position like we have with left wing these past few years in Martial, Rashford, Sanchez and now James when we need balance and different options throughout the squad. I think we desperately need a right sided attacker, a playmaker and an out and out defensive midfielder and my personal preference would be Sancho, Maddison and Rice.
Rice in his teenage years has achieved so much and is putting in top performances in the EPL currently and is a England International to boot. His competition is irrelevant because I know first hand hand how difficult it is for a young player to break through at first team level nevermind cement their place in the first 11 and then respresent their country. You obviously don't.
Neves didn't receive a single vote from their fans. He was the only only player not to receive a vote and was never in the reckoning. But you wanted us to sign him? Did he impress you in the Championship?
And it's clear to me that Rice is a DM in the destroyer mould. But what is it, you see that has you convinced he doesn't have the quality required to play for a big club?
Well if their fans perspective is the same as the United fans perspective on this forum about our own players, will be taking that with a pinch of salt.
Wolves finished what 7/8 last year, him and Moutino were superb all year, you want to find holes in a 22 year olds first season in the top flight, where for the most part he was superb, crack on.
Your opinion, mine is totally different, he wasn't bad against us this season from memory.
He's never torn us to shreds
Scored a worldie though. Hollywood ball, occasional screamer. Vastly overrated.
He was brilliant in the league against us last year, smashed in a worldie and was class in the league this season, thats 2 games on the bounce, plus early in the season last year at OT he was very good, so that's three games him and Moutinho have pretty much ran the show against us (not including the cup game when they battered us as well).
Reads the game, passing is superb, forward passing, crossfield balls, football intelligence, superb shot on him, free kicks, but yeah not sure why anyone would want a CM with all those qualities.
Roll on Matic playing on Sunday, feck Neves don't need him.
You can brush my opinion aside and what alot of the Wolves fans said. But then you have Portuguese poster @Peyroteo who also claims to have watched him extensively last season and he also stated he isn't good enough. A 32 year old Moutinho overshadowed him. Neves also isn't press resistant and is immobile and not agile enough to compensate.
So Jadon Sancho at 18 is currently better at Neymar at 18 because of where he plays? It’s stupid logic. Yes he’s playing in a better league but that doesn’t make him a better player. Otherwise everyone playing in the Prem league at 18 is better than everyone at 18 in France.
Obviously not because it is wrong. The league you are playing in doesn't mean you are the better player. Else PL clubs wouldn't sign anyone from leagues which are not as good
Good for him, as I said you have one opinion, I have another, from games I have seen him play (which not a Wolves fan so is not every week) he has been quality, yeah Moutinho has been surprisingly superb (not sure why 32 matters?), yet to see a game where Neves has struggled to press, he has done it pretty well in every game we have played against them, maybe they are just on offs?
He has certainly not come across as immobile either, Moutinho sits and Neves has the 8 role, which with Wolves finishing 7th and smoking the Championship the year before, sounds to me like he has done an alright job.
If they were carrying a pivotal CM all last season (which by the sounds of your messages sounds like they have) then they sure as hell would not have been the best of the rest last year, but hey just my opinion, which last time I checked, I am entitled to.
So because some Portuguese bloke who watches Wolves thinks he is not good enough, I take that as gospel?
That's like me saying I'm English I watch Lingard/Rashford/Shaw/Jones or whoever every week so you have to take my opinion as the be all and end all haha do me a favour.
Your question was is Rice better than Mascherano at the same age?
Now to answer that, what is the criteria we should use to judge them at River Plate and West Ham?
Way better than Longstaff (which is hopefully dead in the water now). But for £90m or whatever, we should not bother. Seriously, how difficult is it to find an equally solid defensive midfielder around 20-22yrs old in Europe, for about half that price?
What will happen is we'll spend £90m on him because he's British and PL proven.
Then someone like Leicester or West Ham themselves will sign some French lad for about £40m who within 10 games will look twice the player that Declan Rice is.
What will happen is we'll spend £90m on him because he's British and PL proven.
Then someone like Leicester or West Ham themselves will sign some French lad for about £40m who within 10 games will look twice the player that Declan Rice is.
I was at the Huddersfield v Wolves game last season and Hudds pressed him out of the game and he was awful. Apart from his good performance against Liverpool's kids in the league cup I can't remember him having a great game where I think he would improve one of the top teams. He wasn't even in the reckoning for the Wolves player of the year award which should tell you something.
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It's pretty simple in the sense that playing in the Argentinian League needs to be factored in when comparing them at the same age. But it seems people factor in hindsight instead, which is why my answer to the other poster is then responded to in a aggressive tone.
Moutinho was way more impressive ffs. Neves grabbed more attention because he hits a million shots from distance a season and a few go in, but he wasn't one of Wolves' best players last season imo.
Honestly from that team last year Jimenez, Boly, Jota, Moutinho, Doherty, Patricio were all more impressive, and that's just those I can say for sure. Neves has all the tools but he struggles to put it all together on a consistent basis and drifts in and out of games. I really don't think he was any better than the likes of Dendoncker/Jonny etc.
Rice is far more consistently effective in his role than Neves is, despite being 2 years younger. Yet people will say Neves is the far better player because he's more of a technical player.
Didn't he win both the player of the year and the players player of the year the year before?
So because he has not won it two years on the bounce he is terrible? Shaw beat Pogba to ours last year, does that make Pogba terrible?
I can also list off christ knows how many games where Pogba has been absolutely woeful but Madrid still want to spend 150M quid on him.
But Neves has a bad game at Huddersfield and throw him on the scrap heap. As for performances, only really seen him against us, not seen Wolves that much live, he has been superb against us on 4 occasions, Everton at home last year I watched he smashed a free kick in the top corner and was very good, so thats 5 of the top of my head.
Oh and the league cup game you mentioned in which Liverpool's kids including Fabinho, Lovren, Milner, Keita, Shaqiri, Sturridge, and Origi all played.
It's pretty simple in the sense that playing in the Argentinian League needs to be factored in when comparing them at the same age. But it seems people factor in hindsight instead, which is why my answer to the other poster is then responded to in a aggressive tone.
Aggressive haha if this is me you are referring to, didn't realise a difference of opinion is now aggressive.
Love this forum, get the dummies out for the children haha
Rice is another Schneiderlin . Very good at breaking up play but on the ball isn't great . He is a million miles off what we need to go forward
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