Declan Rice

Status
Not open for further replies.
Lash said:
I don't like that idea to be honest, I don't really see the balance in that. We don't really have an issue on the counter, we have an issue when teams sit deep, so I don't really see how Rice is really ever going to be the answer to our midfield issues.
Click to expand...

The midfielder Declan Rice makes me think of is Owen Hargreaves in his prime. There was one thing Hargreaves did better than any other midfielder I have seen in the P.L (With the possible exception of Kante) - it was his ability to put pressure on an opponent so extremely quickly. Rice has a bit of the same - he is extremely good at winning the ball back and getting close to an opponent. I would say that Rice would be ideal for Liverpool - and with the kind of football OGS wants to play, he will be almost as perfect for us.

Him and McTominay would be a very strong partnership in midfield
 
lysglimt said:
The midfielder Declan Rice makes me think of is Owen Hargreaves in his prime. There was one thing Hargreaves did better than any other midfielder I have seen in the P.L (With the possible exception of Kante) - it was his ability to put pressure on an opponent so extremely quickly. Rice has a bit of the same - he is extremely good at winning the ball back and getting close to an opponent. I would say that Rice would be ideal for Liverpool - and with the kind of football OGS wants to play, he will be almost as perfect for us.

Him and McTominay would be a very strong partnership in midfield
Click to expand...
Hmm, I’m not so sure. Hargreaves seemed far more athletic and technical. I couldn’t imagine Rice doing a job at right wing. I still think all the traits people are describing for him, would make him a top class CB. Moving him in to midfield highlights his deficiencies. All my opinion of course.
 
He's not even in the same league as Hargreaves (when he was fit).
 
Robbie Boy said:
Both players you mentioned were far more technically proficient and were naturals in their roles. Makelele was a far more elegant footballer and his reading of the game is what made him one of the best in his position. Rice simply doesn’t have that awareness and I see him as nothing more than a ‘destroyer’.

I’m not sure what top team would have a necessity for that type of player in modern football. Most have a player sitting deep that can both tackle and act as a playmaker of sorts. That’s not Rice’s forte and nor should it be given he’s only been converted to a DM over the past 24 months. I just find the hype around him all very silly and it doesn’t correlate to what he’s doing on the pitch.
Click to expand...

If being 20 years old and representing England in the DM role isnt a natural in their role, nothing is
 
I'm honestly not sure why it seems to fashionable to dismiss him. The kids 20, plays a role that's often filled by more experienced players and he's had an excellent season and carried his form over. He's got a very good future IMO.
 
Ekeke said:
If being 20 years old and representing England in the DM role isnt a natural in their role, nothing is
Click to expand...

Yeah he has great competition for the role doesn’t he. He’s not natural whatsoever, and why should he be? He’s a CB who has been converted into a DM relatively late, all things considered. He’s not that good, you think he is, fair dues to you. England have some fabulous young players at the moment and Declan fecking Rice is not one of them. Southgate has some odd thing for him so hey, enjoy watching him ;)
 
When I watch him I'm only really impressed with his ball-winning, but I think Noble is completely washed, so the fact that West Ham aren't overrun in midfield might mean he's as good as the media/Southgate thinks. If he had a quality partner would he be putting in even better performances?
 
Inter Yer Nan said:
I'm honestly not sure why it seems to fashionable to dismiss him. The kids 20, plays a role that's often filled by more experienced players and he's had an excellent season and carried his form over. He's got a very good future IMO.
Click to expand...

That doesn'tean he's worthy of comparison to Hargreaves.
 
Well, we will get to see him up close this weekend. Hope he stinks.
 
Inter Yer Nan said:
I'm honestly not sure why it seems to fashionable to dismiss him. The kids 20, plays a role that's often filled by more experienced players and he's had an excellent season and carried his form over. He's got a very good future IMO.
Click to expand...

Agreed.
A lot of unjustified negativity, the lad is an outstanding talent.

If United did sign him, we'd have the opportunity to play with 2 far more creative and attacking MFs.
 
Ikon said:
Agreed.
A lot of unjustified negativity, the lad is an outstanding talent.

If United did sign him, we'd have the opportunity to play with 2 far more creative and attacking MFs.
Click to expand...
Thing is, I genuinely can't think of a top team that's won anything, that has played a DM as limited on the ball as him. Or played a midfield 3 consisting of one destroyer, with ball recovery as his only top attribute and 2 AMs.
 
Lash said:
Thing is, I genuinely can't think of a top team that's won anything, that has played a DM as limited on the ball as him. Or played a midfield 3 consisting of one destroyer, with ball recovery as his only top attribute and 2 AMs.
Click to expand...
Ngolo Kante at the same age was still in the Boulogne youth team and was regarded as being very limited by some youth observers in France at the time. At 22 he was playing in France's second tier and when he eventually left France for Leicester at 25 he joined for a paltry £5.6m.

Gennaro Gattuso at the same age wasn't deemed good enough as a DM in the SPL at Glasgow Rangers under Dutch Coach Dick Advocaat and was sold to Salernitana.

The above examples just show that conclusions shouldn't be drawn on players at 19, 20. Especially not in the case of Rice who is actually doing well in comparison.
 
Adnan said:
Ngolo Kante at the same age was still in the Boulogne youth team and was regarded as being very limited by some youth observers in France at the time. At 22 he was playing in France's second tier and when he eventually left France for Leicester at 25 he joined for a paltry £5.6m.

Gennaro Gattuso at the same age wasn't deemed good enough as a DM in the SPL at Glasgow Rangers under Dutch Coach Dick Advocaat and was sold to Salernitana.

The above examples just show that conclusions shouldn't be drawn on players at 19, 20. Especially not in the case of Rice who is actually doing well in comparison.
Click to expand...
Those two you just mentioned are completely different styles of player though. Neither are converted CBs and exceptions rather than a rule. I could just throw Jack Rodwell back at you.
 
Lash said:
Those two you just mentioned are completely different styles of player though. Neither are converted CBs and exceptions rather than a rule. I could just throw Jack Rodwell back at you.
Click to expand...
What about the former Right Back turned DM Fabinho who was in Real Madrid's second string at 20? He's considered the best DM in the league by Gary Neville which isn't bad for a player that was a RB.
 
An absolutely cracking player who is going to get better and better the more he matures.

Would be the PERFECT buy for our midfield.
 
Patience said:
An absolutely cracking player who is going to get better and better the more he matures.

Would be the PERFECT buy for our midfield.
Click to expand...
Why? we are constantly asking for someone to play the ball from deep yet those same posters want Rice? Whta does he add more than Scott? I'd say Scott is even better on the ball than Declan.
This seems to be one of those instances where fans are blinded by age, everything is viewed through the age scope so it'll be 3/4 more years before fans start assessing him properly.
 
Adnan said:
What about the former Right Back turned DM Fabinho who was in Real Madrid's second string at 20? He's considered the best DM in the league by Gary Neville which isn't bad for a player that was a RB.
Click to expand...
I mean again, not even close to starting out in similar roles. Rice has never played full back or deemed good enough to be at Real Madrid. My original point still stands though, what team trying to be a top team and win things have bought someone as limited on the ball as him? Your assumption that he's 20, so progression will just be linear because he's doing alright now, is odd.
 
Lash said:
I mean again, not even close to starting out in similar roles. Rice has never played full back or deemed good enough to be at Real Madrid. My original point still stands though, what team trying to be a top team and win things have bought someone as limited on the ball as him? Your assumption that he's 20, so progression will just be linear because he's doing alright now, is odd.
Click to expand...
The point was Fabinho was a converted Right Back which makes your criticism about Rice null and void considering Fabinho is considered by many to be the best DM in the league currently. Van Nisterooy was a converted midfielder and Ashley Cole was a converted striker. It's actually pretty normal for players to be converted into different roles as they come through the ranks. And I've seen it first hand at the United academy, so not sure how anyone would use that beat up him up with.

You have to define what you mean by him being limited on the ball. Because from what he showed in his last game, he definitely isn't limited on the ball and his passing was on point.
 
Adnan said:
The point was Fabinho was a converted Right Back which makes your criticism about Rice null and void considering Fabinho is considered by many to be the best DM in the league currently. Van Nisterooy was a converted midfielder and Ashley Cole was a converted striker. It's actually pretty normal for players to be converted into different roles as they come through the ranks. And I've seen it first hand at the United academy, so not sure how anyone would use that beat up him up with.

You have to define what you mean by him being limited on the ball. Because from what he showed in his last game, he definitely isn't limited on the ball and his passing was on point.
Click to expand...
Well it doesn't because a converted CB to CM is completely different. I genuinely can't think of successful transition from CB to CM and I genuinely was asking to see if it has some proof of being a good model to follow. The limitations for him on the ball stem from playing against a lower block, like with England. In a counter attacking team, yeah, perfect. Think the majority of his passing against Villa was long - apologies if wrong.
 
I can see the argument people have on him. The "we need better passing from deep" and yes ideally you would. The issue we have though is we have one of our midfielders who does no defensive duty at all in Pogba. Most teams creative players do at least, do some of that. You see the likes of City with De Bruyne and Silva not afraid to make a tackle or press or track back. Rice wouldn't be as much use to them. In our team, assuming Pogba stays we need an out and out defensive midfielder to compliment his attacking play and lack of tracking back. Liverpool's midfield is a bit similiar at times, it's set up to basically do the donkey work so the forwards can work their magic.The ideal midfield 3 would a pure dm like Rice, Pogba and another mid who can do his share of defensive work and help in the attacking third as well.With the addition of Maguire the out and need for a deep lying playmaker is probably negated a bit. Of course a big issue with Rice will be his extortante transfer fee, but his ability to me is undoubted.
 
From what i've seem this season we don't seem to concede to many chances per game (in spite of some freak goals we conceded, mostly due to individual errors in defense). Mctominay has been doing a fine job at shielding the defense so a player like Rice would be the least of my priorities. Were we did struggle at times however, is at moving the ball from DM to attack, while not playing Pogba there. A deep lying pm or a DM with very good dribbling and passing skills would suit us much better.

There is a reason why most big successful teams don't play classic destroyers anymore.
 
are any sources, not that means much these day,s even linking us with him. I haven't seen any of the usual culprits doing so.
 
Adnan said:
Ngolo Kante at the same age was still in the Boulogne youth team and was regarded as being very limited by some youth observers in France at the time. At 22 he was playing in France's second tier and when he eventually left France for Leicester at 25 he joined for a paltry £5.6m.

Gennaro Gattuso at the same age wasn't deemed good enough as a DM in the SPL at Glasgow Rangers under Dutch Coach Dick Advocaat and was sold to Salernitana.

The above examples just show that conclusions shouldn't be drawn on players at 19, 20. Especially not in the case of Rice who is actually doing well in comparison.
Click to expand...

Gennaro Gattuso was a very limited player. He rose to prominence mainly because his skillset complimented Andrea Pirlo's perfectly. Both fed off each others strengths turning AC Milan's and Italy's midfield into something extraordinary. Put Gattuso alongside complete players like Keane (when he was still AM) or Robson and he would have looked redundant.
 
devilish said:
Gennaro Gattuso was a very limited player. He rose to prominence mainly because his skillset complimented Andrea Pirlo's perfectly. Both fed off each others strengths turning AC Milan's and Italy's midfield into something extraordinary. Put Gattuso alongside complete players like Keane (when he was still AM) or Robson and he would have looked redundant.
Click to expand...
Gattuso was limited, but he turned into a great player due to Ancellotti pairing him up with Pirlo for AC Milan. It was the same for the NT and Gattuso pocketing Zidane in the 2006 WC final was a particular high.

"Playing football is very simple, but playing simple football is the hardest thing there is.”

Johan Cruyff.
 
Adnan said:
Gattuso was limited, but he turned into a great player due to Ancellotti pairing him up with Pirlo for AC Milan. It was the same for the NT and Gattuso pocketing Zidane in the 2006 WC final was a particular high.

"Playing football is very simple, but playing simple football is the hardest thing there is.”

Johan Cruyff.
Click to expand...

There are 4 ways to judge a player. Technically wise Gattuso was very average. Physically he was a beast. His strength and stamina was at par to prime Keane. In terms of intelligence he was top notch. The guy knew his strengths and weaknesses and he rarely looked silly on the pitch. Finally his attitude was top notch. He was very similar to Keane aka he was a leader and he would always give his 100%

Back in the day he was my favourite to replace Keano. I think his partnership with Scholes would have been at par to his partnership with Pirlo
 
He's a decent player I just don't think he's the priority in our midfield. more than anything we are crying out for more creativity.
 
devilish said:
There are 4 ways to judge a player. Technically wise Gattuso was very average. Physically he was a beast. His strength and stamina was at par to prime Keane. In terms of intelligence he was top notch. The guy knew his strengths and weaknesses and he rarely looked silly on the pitch. Finally his attitude was top notch. He was very similar to Keane aka he was a leader and he would always give his 100%

Back in the day he was my favourite to replace Keano. I think his partnership with Scholes would have been at par to his partnership with Pirlo
Click to expand...
I agree mate.

The reason I used him as a example was due to him also being considered limited by many. But like you quite correctly pointed out, he became a brilliant player and alongside a more creative player like Pirlo, he was amazing.

Rice might not reach the same level as Gattusso. But I'd say currently he's displaying signs of having a better passing game. Rice also had a pass success rate of 95% in his last game, in a game that Villa had West Ham under the cosh for periods. Rice has shown he can break lines by dribbling the ball too, which gets lost on people. He's nowhere near as limited as some people make it sound.

We have three very creative midfielders coming through the ranks (Gomes, Garner, Levitt) who can potentially occupy the deep-lying playmaking role. What we don't have is someone who is a specialist ball winner who can balance things out in that regard as a DM. And whatever someones opinion of Rice is. One thing is very clear as things stand, that he's developing into a brilliant DM and is making the naysayers look very foolish with each passing game.
 
“But would I go and spend that much money on a player? Do Manchester United need another player like that? They’ve already got Nemanja Matic.....doing a similar role to what I see Rice doing.” Gary Neville.

It's comments like this, that leave me shaking my head at times.
 
Ikon said:
“But would I go and spend that much money on a player? Do Manchester United need another player like that? They’ve already got Nemanja Matic.....doing a similar role to what I see Rice doing.” Gary Neville.

It's comments like this, that leave me shaking my head at times.
Click to expand...

He said Matic and McTominay doing the similar role.
 
lysglimt said:
The midfielder Declan Rice makes me think of is Owen Hargreaves in his prime. There was one thing Hargreaves did better than any other midfielder I have seen in the P.L (With the possible exception of Kante) - it was his ability to put pressure on an opponent so extremely quickly. Rice has a bit of the same - he is extremely good at winning the ball back and getting close to an opponent. I would say that Rice would be ideal for Liverpool - and with the kind of football OGS wants to play, he will be almost as perfect for us.

Him and McTominay would be a very strong partnership in midfield
Click to expand...

You must be kidding. Owen Hargreaves was a far, far, far better and more effective footballer. Declan Rice is a decent Prem player, no more than that. You honestly think a Rice / McTominay midfield duo is 'strong'.

Really?
 
devilish said:
Gennaro Gattuso was a very limited player. He rose to prominence mainly because his skillset complimented Andrea Pirlo's perfectly. Both fed off each others strengths turning AC Milan's and Italy's midfield into something extraordinary. Put Gattuso alongside complete players like Keane (when he was still AM) or Robson and he would have looked redundant.
Click to expand...



Rice would be complimenting Scott McTominay.

That's as bland, uninspiring and defensive a midfield pairing as you can get. It cannot get 'more British' if it wanted to be - it's the sort of overly negative/defensive midfield that relegation candidates would field when playing away to top four team.
 
Alabaster Codify7 said:
Rice would be complimenting Scott McTominay.

That's as bland, uninspiring and defensive a midfield pairing as you can get. It cannot get 'more British' if it wanted to be - it's the sort of overly negative/defensive midfield that relegation candidates would field when playing away to top four team.
Click to expand...

You need mobile & defensive players alongside Pogba as the guy is a liability on the defensive side of the game. I have no issues about us buying rice if the fee is right. Tbh my concerns are more about McT rather then him. I've yet to understand what qualities does he have to justify his first team role
 
roonster09 said:
He said Matic and McTominay doing the similar role.
Click to expand...

Yes, you are correct, I was just trying to emphasize that "some" are still clinging onto the belief that Matic is a top class performer, and fail to see that he needs replacing ASAP.
 
We'd be bereft of creativity in midfield when 2 of the 3 spots are going to Rice and McT. I'd be looking at a DLP type more than a destroyer.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.