Declan Rice
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Hence a lot of fans wants Pogba out over the years. It’s only in recent year when Pogba start to dominate more regularly, fans want him to stay.
So all the inability to Germany to create final passes is their fault and not the defenders or the CDM they are playing against that they lost 2-0 against
No, it's a combination of factors. But I don't see why I should single out Rice as praise for that. Similarly I didn't single out any defender. England as unit defended alright, but they were also a bit lucky with Germany's poor finishing. They didn't really control the game either.
I actually rate Rice as a sitting DM, I just don't rate his ball circulation and the ability to dictate tempo. I don't think a sitting DM is worth 80m.
yet you're judging a 22yrd old midfielder over One game a European final at that against the European champions Italy.
Those teams used to play low block and hit us on the counter. The idea we were getting dominated Bournemouth and Watford is a little bit out there.
He's almost like a CDM version of Maguire. Not necessarily how he plays, more just the profile of a potential transfer.
The English tax means he'll be an extra £10-20m or so worth than he actually should be, and he probably isn't ever going to be a world class, undisputed best in position, type of player -- but the stuff he is good at, he will definitely excel in and be amongst the better players in the league. He's very much injury-free (I think he's only been injured once since his breakout, and that was actually on international duty last season!), he's a leader at West Ham at a very young age etc. On the actual footballing side of things he's decent enough, and he's still extremely young for that position.
My main concern is I just feel the scouts should be finding equivalent players out there (i.e. a good number 6 who can defend and pass a bit) for a lot less than the outrageous fee West Ham would command.
We are going to be playing an attack with players like Ronaldo, Sancho, Rashford, Greenwood etc -- excellent players who lack a bit of defensive discipline. IF added onto that Pogba extends, we really do need a proper no.6 to sit deep. Rice might be the pick then.
If Pogba goes I think we probably need two midfielders, but that's a different story...
The English tax means he'll be an extra £10-20m or so worth than he actually should be, and he probably isn't ever going to be a world class, undisputed best in position, type of player -- but the stuff he is good at, he will definitely excel in and be amongst the better players in the league. He's very much injury-free (I think he's only been injured once since his breakout, and that was actually on international duty last season!), he's a leader at West Ham at a very young age etc. On the actual footballing side of things he's decent enough, and he's still extremely young for that position.
My main concern is I just feel the scouts should be finding equivalent players out there (i.e. a good number 6 who can defend and pass a bit) for a lot less than the outrageous fee West Ham would command.
We are going to be playing an attack with players like Ronaldo, Sancho, Rashford, Greenwood etc -- excellent players who lack a bit of defensive discipline. IF added onto that Pogba extends, we really do need a proper no.6 to sit deep. Rice might be the pick then.
If Pogba goes I think we probably need two midfielders, but that's a different story...
The Barca side playing tiki-taka back in the days had skewed people's opinions about possession. Now when people see a team with less possession, they think its midfield gets dominated. As far as I see, Southgate set up to give up possession against Italy, and Rice and Phillips did very well to shut out opposition, leaving them meaningless possession with few chances created (Chiesa's solo effort was the only threat). The match went the wrong way only after Rice was taken off. Needless to say Italy played 3 central midfielders and England played 2.
Pretty sure people will say the same about Kante if he isn't that famous. He "got dominated" against Madrid and City in the Champions League and his team had less possession. Yet he was the MOM in all three fixtures and his team won the tournament. Context matters.
Hence why I think fans arent so fond of this deal happening. Not a fasionable, trendy enough name...
If he wasnt english he'd be much higher rated that's for sure.
I think it's nailed on we'll go all out for him. If we were convinced by the alternatives they probably would have been pursued more heavily already. Neves for example was an easy transfer to do, there's no reason whatsoever to think we'll revisit that.
Rice is one that has Ole written all over it but probably not the budget to get anywhere near West Ham's expectation last summer.
Maybe the French lad was deemed to need another season where he is, or maybe somebody else comes out of the left field but I think we should be prepared that in all likelihood this will be next summer's midfield saga.
Not quite, that's an oversimplification. Italy played 4-3-3 and England played 3-4-2-1. With Mount being a workhorse AM to boot.
But context indeed matters and possession or shots don't always give the full picture.
I agree with all of that. I like Rice as a player but the balance of our midfield won't be quite right if he comes in, we don't have the right player to partner him with which means we'll have to go out again and buy someone else. Given the fact that the club is desperately trying to get Pogba to stay despite his issues in the deeper midfield position I am really not sure what the plan is, it's a bit confusing.
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Going on reports we are 100% interested.
Remains to be seen if Ole sees him as the one.
If he is...the only question is if Rice himself is interested...
I'm sure Ole will get his agent England players on this one (if he hasnt already)
The problem here is that people think that Rice will come in and play next to Pogba in a midfield duo that allow us to play our current 4-2-4.
And if you think we're not playing 4-2-4, have a look what average positions look like in such line up....
Bruno plays as high up the pitch as our striker. He is not involved in the build up or in defending during the transition.
That's not sustainable. It's highly doubtful such a midfield, with anyone in place of Matic, will hold against better opposition. I mean, even Newcastle and Wolves cut through it repeatedly. We were lucky to get all 3 points against Wolves and we simply had too much in attack for Newcastle. But you can't pull that off every week.
People here genuinely believe that it would be Rice and Fred in midfield, instead of Rice and McTominay
He might want to go to Chelsea but realistically in football these romantic notions don't matter all that much unless they match West Ham's demands, and probably also the players demands. Most players take a pretty pragmatic view of these things given its their career not a season ticket.
Chelsea can of course do that, but they may not want to, or they may target other players. The chances are if we're committed to getting him we'll have a pretty good shot in my opinion.
Saying a player gets dominated solely based on the team having less possession is what I call oversimplification. Mount was playing very wide almost as a winger and he offered little help to the midfield. Imo Rice and Phillips did very well despite being outnumbered and people still try to make them the scapegoats.
Chelsea are the ultimate pragmatists when it comes to both managers and football transfers.
If Saul adapts well then Chelsea will simply sign him permanently for half the cost of Rice. They're not going to go out and pay the English tax what West Ham would demand for Rice. They would only go in for Rice if Saul doesn't work out.
Newcastle, Wolves cut through our midfield.
Option 1 - use Rice and it allows us to use Pogba. Let Rice concentrate on defensive stability.
Option 2 - don't sign Rice, use Pogba as a LAM and sign a deep lying playmaker that instead that we can set up with Fred or Mctominay.
Is that right?
We can't sign a deep lying playmaker and set them up next to Pogba.
The only partner next to Pogba in a double pivot has to be a defensive maniac.
Option 1 - use Rice and it allows us to use Pogba. Let Rice concentrate on defensive stability.
Option 2 - don't sign Rice, use Pogba as a LAM and sign a deep lying playmaker that instead that we can set up with Fred or Mctominay.
Is that right?
We can't sign a deep lying playmaker and set them up next to Pogba.
The only partner next to Pogba in a double pivot has to be a defensive maniac.
Sort of.
I don't see option 1 as viable in many games. Not while Bruno plays as a 2nd striker. I simply don't think Rice is soooo good, that he can basically cover the 4-2-4 that we play on his own. Not against any decent opposition. Such player simply doesn't exist imo. Pogba at LM ends up becoming more like a 4-3-3 and I see it as more balanced for tough fixtures. The 4-2-4 can be used only in some games from the start, or as an option when we're chasing the game.
In any case I think the discussion about midfielders is a bit premature until we find out what Pogba does. Because If he leaves then option 1 is completely out the window and we certainly need a DLP to play next to a box-to-box.
EDIT: I expect VdB to also be gone next summer.
Perhaps, but it's not that unlikely that Saul is just okay to decent, he's a bit of an all rounder but not really a master of anything in particular. I don't really see him as a big difference maker but he'll probably do a job. Whereas Rice has a pretty clear set of strengths which are quite different.
I think overall if somebody goes all out for Rice they're pretty likely to get him. There's only so many options for him to go to at his price point and likely wages, quite unlikely 2 or 3 clubs will be willing to do it.
Why is this still going? West Ham wanted 80 for him season before last and even though Chelsea went on a mad spending spree 200 mill plus and bought 10 players or something ridiculous they said no. It was reported that after the Euros they were asking 90 or something!
Rice is stuck at West Ham like Kane at Tottenham. To get him we would need him to drop his first choice (Chelsea) then spend a ridiculous amount on him. 80- 90 mill. Why would we do that even when Chelsea wont. Its ridiculous. Maybe if he is Prem player of the year and turns into a complete midfield beast but I doubt it.
Rice is stuck at West Ham like Kane at Tottenham. To get him we would need him to drop his first choice (Chelsea) then spend a ridiculous amount on him. 80- 90 mill. Why would we do that even when Chelsea wont. Its ridiculous. Maybe if he is Prem player of the year and turns into a complete midfield beast but I doubt it.
Our midfield gets cut through because our team is disorganized. Our team is never ready for defensive transition. How many times we see both our fullbacks are high up the pitch leaving our defence all over the place? Rice may help us a bit with his skillset, but I don't expect significant improvement if we continue to play like this.
A classic example I always use is that we conceded only 29 and 28 goals in the league in 16/17 and 17/18, with Pogba in a double pivot. His partner? Herrera was no defensive maniac and Matic had already past his best. We defended well because of capable coaching, let alone we didn't have Maguire and Varane at that time.
I don't see why we would base our transfer strategy around what Chelsea will or will not do or why it's even relevant except to the extent they may become rivals to sign him.
The only thing that matters to us is our own judgment of the player, our own budget and whether he is compatible with our plans. We are not going to say "oh Chelsea turned him down at 80 million so he's not the man for us" - that makes zero sense. Shall we wait to see what our rivals do for every transfer and save money on recruitment?
Chelsea don't need a pure sititng DM though. Under Tuchel they play either 3-4-3 with two box-to-box CMs or 4-3-3 with a playmaker at the base of the midfield (Jorginho) and two CMs pressing (Kovacic & Kante).
They are not going to play Rice as well as 3 CBs. Or Rice in the base of the three instead of Jorginho. That's part of the reason why Saul, who's more of an all rounder as you said, is more appealing. Other than the cost of course.
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I am judging him throughout the tournament. He is at best a water carrier.
Yeah against Norwich and Watford maybe
Majority still don’t want him. What’s your point?
Not the point I was making. Yes planning your strategy around another club is stupid. However the fact that he wants to join Chelsea is a minus. Our strategy is to get players who want to play for United. Secondly Chelsea failing in bidding for him is an indication that A they want him and B that he costs too much and C that West Ham are not willing to negotiate.
All this adds up to thats its very unlikely that we will get Declan Rice and if we do it will be 80-90 mill plus. Which will be stupid.
Unless memory serves me incorrectly I remember him bossing the Chelsea midfield last season
I’d say it’s more 50/50 and those that don’t, it’s split between price and type of midfielder wanted
It's not as if every player we sign has always dreamt of United. I bet half our squad didn't start their career with us as the only goal, they would have all had differing allegiances and ideal situations.
The fact Chelsea is his boyhood club and ideal club in a best case scenario shouldn't put us off. I think most of them are intelligent enough to know that football is about timing and circumstance and ultimately it's a career and you don't wait around for things that may not happen.
It doesn't mean he wouldn't be committed and I'm not sure this thinking is what Ole means when he says he wants players that want to play for the club. I don't think he would stretch that to meaning we don't go for a guy that's ever had a favoured destination other than ourselves because that is limiting, he means he wants to get a feeling and indication of their ambition and desire to come here to avoid those Di Maria type situations.
Well, we pretty much know it's 80 million or so regardless of what Chelsea do. There's no secret with respect to his value set by West Ham. We pretty much have to bite the bullet if he's our ideal choice, it's no different to Maguire not really being an 80 million footballer based on attributes alone, but if he's the perfect candidate as judged by the club then long term the equation is different than simple analysis of him as a player right now.
I think being fair that almost all the fan base would be glad to get him, but for a decent fee. And since West Ham are asking around 90M for him, I would rather look for another option. A 100M Declan Rice will not be better, for the group, than 2 players at 50M each
What does this really mean when you drill down into it?
A 50 million player can be anything from a flop to a total success to anything in between. It's not a benchmark for quality yet you are inferring one from a price tag alone.
So can Rice for that matter, but at least he can be analysed and the probability can be predicted alongside his potential to grow. He is there to be praised or criticised whereas your nameless players are not, well... our recruitment team can't deal in theoretical players.
It's not a fair or reasonable argument unless it's fleshed out because you don't have to justify anything. I could say that rather than your two 50 million players I'm going to do some incredible scouting and get 10 10 million players that are better.
Another player Rice reminds me of is the CB version of Daley Blind playing in CDM; and obviously without the passing ability but with more pace and power.
He kind of reads the attack before it happens and is at the right place at the right time trying to make a tackle on a player before recycling the possesion to start a counter attack.
I really enjoy watching it.
He kind of reads the attack before it happens and is at the right place at the right time trying to make a tackle on a player before recycling the possesion to start a counter attack.
I really enjoy watching it.
I'd rather we targeted Kalvin Philips instead of Declan Rice - reckon we could have done a deal with Dan James and some cash going their way.
I see a few people seem to hold this opinion but I have really struggled to see the merit in Phillips so far. Not that he's bad but what is he good enough at to make a huge difference? Big clubs are supposedly interested too so it must be my problem and I need to watch closer but I don't see many boxes to tick over Rice.
The ones I do see such as more comfort going forward and long passing don't seem to really strike upon our actual weaknesses. McTominay should develop into a good energetic midfielder, and Maguire and Pogba especially have great long passing from deep positions.
Wouldn't we rather have that solid figure that does a specific role and can only get better rather than another guy that does a bit of this and that? I think we've got a few Kalvin Phillips types floating around to be honest.
Just seems me like it would be a bad case of penny pinching if we did this just to save the money, I'd rather have the younger guy and the one that we know pretty much 100% what he's going to bring (and his weaknesses) and we can work around him and also improve him. It's expensive for what he is but values after 2-3 years look a lot different than at the point of sale. Even now we probably wouldn't say Maguire is 80 million quids worth but we'd much rather have him wouldn't we?
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My biggest problem with Phillips was that in the Euro's we didn't see him play like Yorkshire Pirlo.
No passing at all.
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