Declan Rice

[lex talionis]

He's not though, he's a better passer potentially, or I'd probably rather say a better long passer because they both pass 10 yards consistently but neither is that incisive. This is major criticism of England in midfield, that neither is offering much progressively.

Rice is more physical and the better defensive player which covers a whole range of skills. I don't think it's a toss up, I think it's fairly clear in this department and that's why Rice is anchoring and probably the one the manager wouldn't want to lose because who do you replace him with? Henderson is not a bad Phillips step in.

It's also a huge proportion of midfield play, particularly as specialists are used by many sides. This is why I think the top sides are interested, being extremely adept in some areas can be more useful than being a reasonable all-rounder. It depends on the partnerships of course but I think this combined with his age and experience are why he's so valued.

I think we've got a pretty good all-rounder in McTominay to be honest, but if we are wanting a disciplined figure it's clear Rice is the option. Maybe him and Ndidi are the only options in the PL for that type, otherwise we will have to find a different composition.

When England were in a scrape against Italy it was Rice and not Phillips who was subbed off (Rice looked borderline poor, to be honest). And for what's worth, it was Phillips and not Rice who was named into the team of the Euros. In every aspect of play in the Euros it was Phillips and not Rice who stood out as indispensable to England's success.

I want to be sure I don't fall into the trap of overstating the case, but in nearly every aspect of play Phillips looks the better central midfielder. He's physically stronger, has better pace, has better passing range, has better vision and is comfortable with the demands his club's tactics require. There's nothing really wrong with Rice, and at his young age he arguably has a higher ceiling than Phillips, but between the two today it's a straightforward call: Phillips.

I had no idea who Kalvin Phillips was when he was 22, Rice's current age. It's definitely safe to say that Rice today is vastly superior to where Phillips was when he was 22. But here we are now and Phillips has a solid 6-7 seasons of peak play ahead of him. That's long enough of a runway to tip the scales in favor of Phillips, who would cost about half of what Rice would cost. We could with Rice (not sure he's interested in ever joining United, however -- whereas, Phillips clearly has greater things ahead of him than Leeds) but if we spent the $100m required to bring him to OT we'd likely have nothing left in next summer's warchest.

On McTominay, he's a solid squad man but he shouldn't be viewed as either a first choice 6 or 8. We're now at the point where we're one central midfielder away from being a side that could be viewed as a favorite for the PL and CL and McTominay is most definitely not the missing link.

But closing out the point on Kalvin Phillips, I'll have to step aside and defer to Andrea Pirlo:

“There’s the boy at Leeds who’s a bit of a regista,” Pirlo said. When Pirlos singles you out as "a bit of a regista" you're being praised by one of the great registas of all time.

 

[Abraxas]

When England were in a scrape against Italy it was Rice and not Phillips who was subbed off (Rice looked borderline poor, to be honest). And for what's worth, it was Phillips and not Rice who was named into the team of the Euros. In every aspect of play in the Euros it was Phillips and not Rice who stood out as indispensable to England's success.

I want to be sure I don't fall into the trap of overstating the case, but in nearly every aspect of play Phillips looks the better central midfielder. He's physically stronger, has better pace, has better passing range, has better vision and is comfortable with the demands his club's tactics require. There's nothing really wrong with Rice, and at his young age he arguably has a higher ceiling than Phillips, but between the two today it's a straightforward call: Phillips.

I had no idea who Kalvin Phillips was when he was 22, Rice's current age. It's definitely safe to say that Rice today is vastly superior to where Phillips was when he was 22. But here we are now and Phillips has a solid 6-7 seasons of peak play ahead of him. That's long enough of a runway to tip the scales in favor of Phillips, who would cost about half of what Rice would cost. We could with Rice (not sure he's interested in ever joining United, however -- whereas, Phillips clearly has greater things ahead of him than Leeds) but if we spent the $100m required to bring him to OT we'd likely have nothing left in next summer's warchest.

On McTominay, he's a solid squad man but he shouldn't be viewed as either a first choice 6 or 8. We're now at the point where we're one central midfielder away from being a side that could be viewed as a favorite for the PL and CL and McTominay is most definitely not the missing link.

But closing out the point on Kalvin Phillips, I'll have to step aside and defer to Andrea Pirlo:

“There’s the boy at Leeds who’s a bit of a regista,” Pirlo said. When Pirlos singles you out as "a bit of a regista" you're being praised by one of the great registas of all time.

They were both poor against Italy so I'm not sure what morsels of positivity are to be taken from that with respect to Phillips. We conceded the game completely and they were a large part of that process, which comes back to what I'm saying that neither is quality on the ball among elite midfielders. Can't on the one hand criticise Rice and then make out that Phillips was much better when the Italian midfield had us for breakfast, that doesn't make a lot of logical sense. We were pinned back and got nothing going so it was very much joint culpability along with the way the side mentally dealt with going ahead.

I think the reason Rice was subbed off was physical, he did after all have more minutes behind him in the PL and had run his race. I didn't read that much into it beyond that, managers will take off players regardless of importance because ultimately if the legs are not there it is futile to keep them going.

I disagree with how you look at their age because if this is peak Phillips or close to it that isn't a good thing in my eyes, that's a worry. I'm not enthused by all areas of Rice's game that is for sure but at least I can console myself with him doing a limited job if I can expect improvement and it works within the confines of our other players.

Similarly with how he performs for Leeds, I'd expect any mdifielder linked with Manchester United to be comfortable within the setup of their previous club, that's a prerequisite otherwise why are we looking at them in the first place. It's safe to say Rice performs within the West Ham setup and they're a better side than Leeds so I don't see anything remarkable there. When Leeds get hammered who is analysing the protection he offers - at clubs like this we tend to dramatise the positives because of lower expectations, that's a danger in assessing both compared to our current options.

The more important aspect is it depends on the job we see them doing more than anything. The closer the role at their previous clubs was to what Ole wants from his midfielder then the easier it is to analyse for the scouting. I don't think they'd see it the way you do with Phillips being better in every department, I think if they want a pure DM they're looking more towards Rice whereas your analysis presents it as if Phillips could be better in any role.

Not overly impressed by the Pirlo quote because that seems a fairly transparent response to the cringeworthy nickname Phillips has. I don't know but I'd be surprised if Pirlo came out with that off the cuff having not been aware of this.

 

[JB7]

When England were in a scrape against Italy it was Rice and not Phillips who was subbed off (Rice looked borderline poor, to be honest). And for what's worth, it was Phillips and not Rice who was named into the team of the Euros. In every aspect of play in the Euros it was Phillips and not Rice who stood out as indispensable to England's success.

I want to be sure I don't fall into the trap of overstating the case, but in nearly every aspect of play Phillips looks the better central midfielder. He's physically stronger, has better pace, has better passing range, has better vision and is comfortable with the demands his club's tactics require. There's nothing really wrong with Rice, and at his young age he arguably has a higher ceiling than Phillips, but between the two today it's a straightforward call: Phillips.

I had no idea who Kalvin Phillips was when he was 22, Rice's current age. It's definitely safe to say that Rice today is vastly superior to where Phillips was when he was 22. But here we are now and Phillips has a solid 6-7 seasons of peak play ahead of him. That's long enough of a runway to tip the scales in favor of Phillips, who would cost about half of what Rice would cost. We could with Rice (not sure he's interested in ever joining United, however -- whereas, Phillips clearly has greater things ahead of him than Leeds) but if we spent the $100m required to bring him to OT we'd likely have nothing left in next summer's warchest.

On McTominay, he's a solid squad man but he shouldn't be viewed as either a first choice 6 or 8. We're now at the point where we're one central midfielder away from being a side that could be viewed as a favorite for the PL and CL and McTominay is most definitely not the missing link.

But closing out the point on Kalvin Phillips, I'll have to step aside and defer to Andrea Pirlo:

“There’s the boy at Leeds who’s a bit of a regista,” Pirlo said. When Pirlos singles you out as "a bit of a regista" you're being praised by one of the great registas of all time.

It's interesting the way opinions work because I'd probably disagree entirely with almost everything you've written.

Phillips was abysmal in the final against Italy and it was astonishing he came out after half time, frankly aside from the opening game of the tournament he was average at best and by the time the final rolled around he was lucky to still be in the team. Rice wasn't great in the final but was still considerably better than Phillips and it was astonishing he was the one substituted.

Between the two the call is straightforward I agree but it is definitely Rice. The unbelievable overrating of Phillips over the past few months has been ridiculous, and he's definitely not physically stronger than Rice. And as for being comfortable with his clubs tactics, that would be being a defensive player in a team that cannot defend? Brilliant.

As for trying to suggest Rice may not be interested in joining United (despite all the West Ham press seeming relatively confident last week that he was angry about being priced out of a move this summer) but that Phillips, who is Leeds born and bred & absolutely hates United as do all his family, would be interested?

 

[Hammondo]

What do you mean by that?

I feel like as of late, read 4 maybe 5 years, there is a certain reinterpretation of the past with an English nationalistic view on things. Neville said it a couple of times how United always ( read under SAF) went for the best English players in the league; something that just isn't true. We went for the best gettable players from the league, irrelevant of nationality. If Ferdinand, Carrick, Rooney and Keane to widen it to UK were big targets for us it was because of their incredible talent and being among the best in the World in their position, not the best of the English. We had a great English core, but again, not because of any nationalistic or "heart towards English players" but because we had a fantastic academy finding and making great footballers. and from those, only the once that were among the best in the World made the grade for first 11.

So unless Rice is the best in the World in his position or close to it, we should not pay best in the World level fees.

Keane is Irish.

 

[SirScholes]

Those that want us to pay big money for him are out of their minds.

Agreed
I see an overhyped Tom Huddleston and nothing more

 

[reelworld]

Would love Rice.

I think in a more attacking team with much more possession like ours, Rice could improve his game to another level. And he's already at a very good level.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Would love Rice.

I think in a more attacking team with much more possession like ours, Rice could improve his game to another level. And he's already at a very good level.

Why doesn't the English midfield dominate opponents and enable them to play attaractive football though? England have Rahsford, Grealish, Sancho, Mount and Kane ahead of him, and Walker and Shaw besides him at fullback. Nearly all of those play for the biggest clubs. Still, England's midfield is just functional and unsurprisingly got dominated by Italy which suprised nobody.

In isolation, Rice isn't a bad addition. He'll improve us but if we don't get a player with actual ability and class on the ball it'll be muddled set of boring midfielders who set a low bar for quality on the ball. And we'll need more signings to fix that.

 

[lloyd2wayne]

The overating of Rice is wild. The same criteria’s used to bash our own midfielders, Rice doesn’t even excel in yet half of the caf wants him.

 

[reelworld]

Why doesn't the English midfield dominate opponents and enable them to play attaractive football though? England have Rahsford, Grealish, Sancho, Mount and Kane ahead of him, and Walker and Shaw besides him at fullback. Nearly all of those play for the biggest clubs. Still, England's midfield is just functional and unsurprisingly got dominated by Italy which suprised nobody.

In isolation, Rice isn't a bad addition. He'll improve us but if we don't get a player with actual ability and class on the ball it'll be muddled set of boring midfielders who set a low bar for quality on the ball. And we'll need more signings to fix that.

I think Southgate have a lot to answer to that than Rice ability as a midfielder.
I have my doubts that Ole would be more adventurous in his approach if he have Rice in midfield, but I do live in hope!

 

[RedStarUnited]

I think Southgate have a lot to answer to that than Rice ability as a midfielder.
I have my doubts that Ole would be more adventurous in his approach if he have Rice in midfield, but I do live in hope!

You think Southgate cant coach England to pass well yet trust Ole to because of Rice?

 

[reelworld]

You think Southgate cant coach England to pass well yet trust Ole to because of Rice?

I think both have it's faults in coaching a more progressive style of football. But I think Ole never have a defensive midfielder as good as Rice. I would be interested to see how we would fare with Rice in the side. Personally, Rice ability to play a quick pass with both feet is underrated.

 

[lex talionis]

It's interesting the way opinions work because I'd probably disagree entirely with almost everything you've written.

Phillips was abysmal in the final against Italy and it was astonishing he came out after half time, frankly aside from the opening game of the tournament he was average at best and by the time the final rolled around he was lucky to still be in the team. Rice wasn't great in the final but was still considerably better than Phillips and it was astonishing he was the one substituted.

Between the two the call is straightforward I agree but it is definitely Rice. The unbelievable overrating of Phillips over the past few months has been ridiculous, and he's definitely not physically stronger than Rice. And as for being comfortable with his clubs tactics, that would be being a defensive player in a team that cannot defend? Brilliant.

As for trying to suggest Rice may not be interested in joining United (despite all the West Ham press seeming relatively confident last week that he was angry about being priced out of a move this summer) but that Phillips, who is Leeds born and bred & absolutely hates United as do all his family, would be interested?

A well-structured post, and I do respect the effort, but it really was Phillips who outshined in the Euros and not Rice. On this point there is no debate.

But let’s say I’m wrong about that, that it really was Rice who outshined Phillips in the Euros. If Rice is so all-conquering why does Southgate go with both Rice and Phillips? The same question could be asked of Phillips, but then again no one suggests that Phillips might really be worth 100 million quid. For 100 million quid we better be getting the next Keane or Carrick, not Rice.

Re Phillips being a Leeds man, fair point up to a point, but the hatred between the clubs isn’t what it once was and player movement between the two clubs not at all unheard of. And when the hatred was off the charts we still found a way to bring in Cantona, Rio and Smith from Elland Road.

 

[Drainy]

Sometimes I feel like I watch a different sport to other people.

Rice is to Phillips what McTominay is to Fred.
Fred performs more actions because he persues them, while McTominay keeps the shape and tries to stop gaps from opening up when others are progressing up the pitch.

Rice does the screening job exceptionally well, recycles the ball effectively and builds from the back without losing possession in dangerous areas barely at all. Phillips is better on the ball, but Rice has a knack of sensing danger and snuffing it out with his positioning so even if a tackle can't be made the passing lane is blocked and the transition is slow and ineffective.

He'd elevate the level of United's midfield, in my opinion by providing a level of stability in both attack /recycling the ball and defensive ability and would be a great partner to and of our current midfielders, including Pogba and DVB

 

[sokol11]

For me what's quite interesting is that Ole has been a manager that has supposedly "played on a players pure ability" hasn't he? Yet people say that Rice is a player that has hardly shown a thing.

This is where I watched him and decided to focus on his pure abilities and to see why would Ole potentially be interested in him if he was only interested in a player with an ability that stuck out.

It's where I realised that Declan Rice is a fantastic reader of the game and is able to nullify an attack before it happens.

A CB in midfield. It may be said as a negative with regards to his technique but his defensive ability to outdo the attackers before they even get a chance on the rest of the deeper CB'S is amazing.

Now why is it he wanted and why is he not wanted by some?

Some regard the key to breaking down an opposition low block is to have a deep lying playmaker and have a quicker accurate passer to provide the goods when needed.

On the other side, some believe that the key to breaking the low block is to have more players further up the pitch with an attacking freedom. This United team already has great defensive individuals in AWB, Varane, Maguire and Shaw - people must not underestimate what Rice could do to a back 4 that is good on its own hands and could be untouchable with a midfielder who would stop the defenders having to deal with an attack just in front of them. We saw a little bit of this for England - not many attacks were done vs England if I remember right until the final of the Euros.

Now what does Rice do to our attack? He protects the CB'S and allows our CB'S to play a higher line and our fullbacks to get forward.It will make our whole team more compact and play closer together, allowing our attacking players be up the pitch and not have to come back. If you notice how Matic plays in a defensive 3 triangle then you can see what Rice would do here, except Rice is the faster younger version - able to play this game further up the pitch than deeper.

Varane - Maguire
AWB - Rice - Shaw​

Very good summary and I would agree with your assesment. In atacking department by itself he won't bring much, but as a whole team we would be able to assign more players to attack with him screening the defense.

 

[RkkMan]

A well-structured post, and I do respect the effort, but it really was Phillips who outshined in the Euros and not Rice. On this point there is no debate.

But let’s say I’m wrong about that, that it really was Rice who outshined Phillips in the Euros. If Rice is so all-conquering why does Southgate go with both Rice and Phillips? The same question could be asked of Phillips, but then again no one suggests that Phillips might really be worth 100 million quid. For 100 million quid we better be getting the next Keane or Carrick, not Rice.

Re Phillips being a Leeds man, fair point up to a point, but the hatred between the clubs isn’t what it once was and player movement between the two clubs not at all unheard of. And when the hatred was off the charts we still found a way to bring in Cantona, Rio and Smith from Elland Road.

Just on the last point
Rio and Cantona were not Leeds men through and through while Alan Smith was signed at a time Leeds were in financial turmoil thus NEEDING to sell.
Leeds are not in financial turmoil now and Phillips is born and raised in Leeds from infancy till adulthood like Rashford/Greenwood to us. It would take an extreme circumstance for us to have any luck getting Phillips

 

[Bebestation]

Man, considering Phillip's strength is passing and Rice is strength is Defending - I find it weird that people say that Phillips had a better Euro's than him.

Kalvin Phillips hardly passed or dictated anything with such significant ability whilst the England defenders and goalkeeper hardly had to undertake a direct attack in comparison.

 

[golden_blunder]

These are the sort of maniacs you're arguing with i'm afraid.

They genuinely watch Rice and put him on a pedestal for some weird reason. He's one of the most basic CM's around, people will lose patience with him VERY quickly if we did sign him.

Just because someone has a different opinion doesn’t make them a maniac

also describing rice as “one of the most basic cm around” is a bit OTT don’t you think? He’s an England regular and captains a good PL team. I think he’s a bit more than basic

 

[golden_blunder]

I can't care less about Rice's progressive passing stats etc. First of all we're talking about a DM here not a regista, secondly these stats usually depend on the team they play in, the players they are partnered with and the manager's philosophy.

What concerns me is his fees. We spend roughly 80m-100m net spend every year give or take. Next season we're set to lose Lingard, Pogba while Mata and Matic would probably retire. Would you be happy if we lose all those players and only sign Rice and at most a 31 year old Trippier? Is he worth blowing our entire budget on him given circumstances?

I like rice but this is where I’m stuck at, because I also think they will want to splash or at least try to on Haaland. Then we have the keeper situation, will one or the other find enough consistent form to make us put a new keeper on the long finger?

next season we could see Lingard, mata, matic, Jones and possibly martial gone. Pogba I have a feeling may sign again, but is that enough money off the books to increase our usually 85m net spend?

 

[golden_blunder]

Man, considering Phillip's strength is passing and Rice is strength is Defending - I find it weird that people say that Phillips had a better Euro's than him.

Kalvin Phillips hardly passed or dictated anything with such significant ability whilst the England defenders and goalkeeper hardly had to undertake a direct attack in comparison.

I know he scored but I was a little underwhelmed by Philips, but that’s another topic

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Man, considering Phillip's strength is passing and Rice is strength is Defending - I find it weird that people say that Phillips had a better Euro's than him.

Kalvin Phillips hardly passed or dictated anything with such significant ability whilst the England defenders and goalkeeper hardly had to undertake a direct attack in comparison.

The fact that Rice isn't even considered capable of the dictating part is probably the issue people have.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Just because someone has a different opinion doesn’t make them a maniac

also describing rice as “one of the most basic cm around” is a bit OTT don’t you think? He’s an England regular and captains a good PL team. I think he’s a bit more than basic

I wouldn't say it's over the top as that's my opinion. I see nothing special about him at all.

People in here talk like he's the next Roy Keane and that's what makes them Maniacs in my eyes. People are putting way too much emphasis on him apparently being good at positioning and being strong in the tackle.

What's he going to be like when we're sitting against a parked bus and the crowd are demanding him to get the ball forward into the likes of Ronaldo, Sancho, Greenwood? is he just going to keep playing his crab passing game?

He has Schneiderlin written all over him.

 

[golden_blunder]

I wouldn't say it's over the top as that's my opinion. I see nothing special about him at all.

People in here talk like he's the next Roy Keane and that's what makes them Maniacs in my eyes. People are putting way too much emphasis on him apparently being good at positioning and being strong in the tackle.

What's he going to be like when we're sitting against a parked bus and the crowd are demanding him to get the ball forward into the likes of Ronaldo, Sancho, Greenwood? is he just going to keep playing his crab passing game?

He has Schneiderlin written all over him.

And that’s your opinion, doesn’t make anyone call you a maniac. Take my point?

 

[Adam-Utd]

And that’s your opinion, doesn’t make anyone call you a maniac. Take my point?

Maniac : a person characterized by an inordinate or ungovernable enthusiasm for something

I would say that's a fair word to use for some people in the thread, but if you feel it's too colourful i'll cut it out. I didn't point it at anybody directly either.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Man, considering Phillip's strength is passing and Rice is strength is Defending - I find it weird that people say that Phillips had a better Euro's than him.

Kalvin Phillips hardly passed or dictated anything with such significant ability whilst the England defenders and goalkeeper hardly had to undertake a direct attack in comparison.

His pressing stats were crazy. He ran a lot further than any of his team mates. He was actually playing as a box to box 8 which was his role pre-Bielsa. He was a big part of how well we defended. It would interest me to see him play as a 6 for England with Bellingham as the box to box 8. I don't think Rice can play in any other position in midfield.

 

[Lash]

There's just no value in this transfer for us. People are pointing to the Maguire transfer as to why he'll be a success, but we had to buy fecking Varane to partner Maguire. Same with Rice, has obvious qualities, but would be overpriced as hell and would still require us to buy a midfielder to play with him.

You'd be better off spending next to nothing on a player like Kamara and making your budget go further.

 

[largelyworried]

There's just no value in this transfer for us. People are pointing to the Maguire transfer as to why he'll be a success, but we had to buy fecking Varane to partner Maguire. Same with Rice, has obvious qualities, but would be overpriced as hell and would still require us to buy a midfielder to play with him.

You'd be better off spending next to nothing on a player like Kamara and making your budget go further.

We already have the partner, that’s the point. McTominay, Fred and Pogba are all players who would have more license to play freely with a proper DM alongside them.

 

[Lash]

We already have the partner, that’s the point. McTominay, Fred and Pogba are all players who would have more license to play freely with a proper DM alongside them.

I like Fred and Mctominay, but one of them and Rice as a midfield pairing sounds absolutely horrendous.

 

[largelyworried]

I like Fred and Mctominay, but one of them and Rice as a midfield pairing sounds absolutely horrendous.

That's just a question of quality, rather than the position. They're both box to box players, albeit slightly different types, and playing alongside a decent DM usually brings the best of that type of player.

 

[Abraxas]

Maniac : a person characterized by an inordinate or ungovernable enthusiasm for something

I would say that's a fair word to use for some people in the thread, but if you feel it's too colourful i'll cut it out. I didn't point it at anybody directly either.

The point is a nonsense regardless of the definition. I would say there is fair debate on Rice. Most people are realistic as to where his abilities are even if they want him. Very few people making him out to be Roy Keane and if there is it is the odd person. There are far more people that see nothing in him than think he is unreservedly brilliant so I've no idea where your perception is coming from, just seems like an overly dramatic point.

 

[Adam-Utd]

The point is a nonsense regardless of the definition. I would say there is fair debate on Rice. Most people are realistic as to where his abilities are even if they want him. Very few people making him out to be Roy Keane and if there is it is the odd person. There are far more people that see nothing in him than think he is unreservedly brilliant so I've no idea where your perception is coming from, just seems like an overly dramatic point.

This whole forum is dramatic and has been for a long time.

I've seen people saying how he will revolutionise our midfield, transform the team etc etc. It's all a load of rubbish, he's not even the best midfielder at West Ham.

Yes he's some decent qualities but I guarantee you if he wasn't English the hype would be NOWHERE near as big. Bellingham will soon take his place for England, let's hope sooner rather than later.

 

[Abraxas]

This whole forum is dramatic and has been for a long time.

I've seen people saying how he will revolutionise our midfield, transform the team etc etc. It's all a load of rubbish, he's not even the best midfielder at West Ham.

Yes he's some decent qualities but I guarantee you if he wasn't English the hype would be NOWHERE near as big. Bellingham will soon take his place for England, let's hope sooner rather than later.

I'm not sure on either of these points. My West Ham supporting friend thinks he's great, certainly more key than Soucek. I haven't conducted a poll but I have a feeling they'd disagree with you on that point as it seems pretty clear Rice is the man giving them a platform in midfield.

The point around him being English is perfectly obvious and this has been known around English signings for a long time. If he wasn't English he probably wouldn't have years of PL experience despite a relatively young age. This is one of the reasons I believe major clubs are looking at him so to try and dissect this element is a rather redundant point. He got opportunities because he was an English academy product and was deemed good enough and now he gets attention because he's done well, it's a normal situation. Whether he would have had the same path and same attention if he was called Rodriguez and came through at Racing Santander is kind of unknown and mostly not useful to speculate on.

 

[lloyd2wayne]

You think Southgate cant coach England to pass well yet trust Ole to because of Rice?

They are just making excuses for why Rice isn't that great. It’s everybody’s fault haha

 

[#07]

That's just a question of quality, rather than the position. They're both box to box players, albeit slightly different types, and playing alongside a decent DM usually brings the best of that type of player.

The issue is our midfield is horribly unbalanced. We have lots of midfielders but, essentially, they're all #8s. Matic is the only one who is a #6 and his legs seem to have gone, which makes him pretty redundant.

McTominay does a decent impression of a #6 e.g, the Europa League final where he was probably our best player. However, its not entirely natural to him and he still gets sucked towards the ball at times. So if you're looking at re-tooling United's midfield then buying someone like Rice, if not Rice himself, makes some sense.

My issue with Rice is I am not sure that he can move the ball through the thirds well enough. I don't watch West Ham every week so, admittedly, I have a small sample size to go off. However, when I have seen him he has looked very conservative.

To compensate for a player like Rice you would need a distributor alongside him. That cannot be Fred, because his passing is too erratic. It could be McTominay but that would be suboptimal. Van de Beek? Remains to be seen but he looks more inclined to give and go football than a Paul Scholes raking forward pass. Pogba? Lets be honest, he's more likely to be gone than not next summer. So realistically, if we buy Rice, we're looking at a Rice and McTominay midfield. That could work but McTominay's game with the ball at his feet has to get better.

We need legs and coverage in midfield. No doubt. But we may well need more than just one midfielder. The whole midfield needs retooling so the combinations work better. I'd be inclined to wait to see what happens with Pogba, Matic and Van de Beek next summer and then make a call on who to sign. The way I see it we have a bunch of #8s and no #6 (cos I'm not counting on Matic). We probably need to get to a position where we have a couple of #8s, maybe #8s better than what we have. And a couple of mobile #6s. Ideally one of whom will be able to play the Carrick role of starting attacks as well as stopping them.

 

[cyberman]

We don’t play with a 6? You don’t really play with a 6 in a 4-2-3-1 formation. We need player to cover ground and get around the pitch. The thing is, McFred does work in a defensive aspect, it’s going forward and opening the game that’s the problem according to most.
we are linked with the likes of Camavinga for a reason

 

[lloyd2wayne]

Just because someone has a different opinion doesn’t make them a maniac

also describing rice as “one of the most basic cm around” is a bit OTT don’t you think? He’s an England regular and captains a good PL team. I think he’s a bit more than basic

He’s basic as they come. I mean how can you watch him and think he has any X factor? You keep saying he’s in the English team like that’s some extraordinary achievement, his partner in the middle is from Leeds so we might as well go for kalvin Phillips then right? I mean Henderson is the captain of Liverpool, you want him too?

The attributes I see people claiming in here is his defensive ability. He has average passing, not fast, doesn’t dictate play etc. the cons outweighs the pros and it’s not even close. For 80-100 million, no thanks.

 

[davidmichael]

For me what's quite interesting is that Ole has been a manager that has supposedly "played on a players pure ability" hasn't he? Yet people say that Rice is a player that has hardly shown a thing.

This is where I watched him and decided to focus on his pure abilities and to see why would Ole potentially be interested in him if he was only interested in a player with an ability that stuck out.

It's where I realised that Declan Rice is a fantastic reader of the game and is able to nullify an attack before it happens.

A CB in midfield. It may be said as a negative with regards to his technique but his defensive ability to outdo the attackers before they even get a chance on the rest of the deeper CB'S is amazing.

Now why is it he wanted and why is he not wanted by some?

Some regard the key to breaking down an opposition low block is to have a deep lying playmaker and have a quicker accurate passer to provide the goods when needed.

On the other side, some believe that the key to breaking the low block is to have more players further up the pitch with an attacking freedom. This United team already has great defensive individuals in AWB, Varane, Maguire and Shaw - people must not underestimate what Rice could do to a back 4 that is good on its own hands and could be untouchable with a midfielder who would stop the defenders having to deal with an attack just in front of them. We saw a little bit of this for England - not many attacks were done vs England if I remember right until the final of the Euros.

Now what does Rice do to our attack? He protects the CB'S and allows our CB'S to play a higher line and our fullbacks to get forward.It will make our whole team more compact and play closer together, allowing our attacking players be up the pitch and not have to come back. If you notice how Matic plays in a defensive 3 triangle then you can see what Rice would do here, except Rice is the faster younger version - able to play this game further up the pitch than deeper.

Varane - Maguire
AWB - Rice - Shaw​

This is what I’ve been saying for about a year and a half, a pure out and out defensive midfielder like Rice basically allows us to play a back 5 and front 5 but also higher up the pitch and when we’ve played a high line we’ve looked dominant.

I get it’s trendy to want the deep lying playmaker in a Pirlo mould but that isn’t what’s needed, in order to play a higher line and allow us a front 5 we need Rice in the team. The less defensively shackled our forward players are the better they are further forward and Rice is one of the best in the league whilst having a decade ahead of him.

 

[golden_blunder]

He’s basic as they come. I mean how can you watch him and think he has any X factor? You keep saying he’s in the English team like that’s some extraordinary achievement, his partner in the middle is from Leeds so we might as well go for kalvin Phillips then right? I mean Henderson is the captain of Liverpool, you want him too?

The attributes I see people claiming in here is his defensive ability. He has average passing, not fast, doesn’t dictate play etc. the cons outweighs the pros and it’s not even close. For 80-100 million, no thanks.

First of all I’m not talking about price, at all. People can’t see straight when money is used to discuss a player.

Henderson won the league & champions league with Liverpool and was a crucial player for them.

wes Morgan captained Leicester to winning the league

there are many examples. Sometimes you need to bring balance to your team

 

[largelyworried]

The issue is our midfield is horribly unbalanced. We have lots of midfielders but, essentially, they're all #8s. Matic is the only one who is a #6 and his legs seem to have gone, which makes him pretty redundant.

McTominay does a decent impression of a #6 e.g, the Europa League final where he was probably our best player. However, its not entirely natural to him and he still gets sucked towards the ball at times. So if you're looking at re-tooling United's midfield then buying someone like Rice, if not Rice himself, makes some sense.

My issue with Rice is I am not sure that he can move the ball through the thirds well enough. I don't watch West Ham every week so, admittedly, I have a small sample size to go off. However, when I have seen him he has looked very conservative.

To compensate for a player like Rice you would need a distributor alongside him. That cannot be Fred, because his passing is too erratic. It could be McTominay but that would be suboptimal. Van de Beek? Remains to be seen but he looks more inclined to give and go football than a Paul Scholes raking forward pass. Pogba? Lets be honest, he's more likely to be gone than not next summer. So realistically, if we buy Rice, we're looking at a Rice and McTominay midfield. That could work but McTominay's game with the ball at his feet has to get better.

We need legs and coverage in midfield. No doubt. But we may well need more than just one midfielder. The whole midfield needs retooling so the combinations work better. I'd be inclined to wait to see what happens with Pogba, Matic and Van de Beek next summer and then make a call on who to sign. The way I see it we have a bunch of #8s and no #6 (cos I'm not counting on Matic). We probably need to get to a position where we have a couple of #8s, maybe #8s better than what we have. And a couple of mobile #6s. Ideally one of whom will be able to play the Carrick role of starting attacks as well as stopping them.

Obviously it will depend on the market and who's available, but I don't see us getting two first team quality midfielders in a single summer. I don't even think that's desirable, given that Cavani will be gone, perhaps Pogba, maybe Martial if his form doesn't pick up. That's quite a lot of attacking options gone, potentially. I suspect the better balance next summer will be to get one midfielder and one attacker, for the headline purchases anyway. If we're only getting one, then a defensively minded player is an obvious starting point.

Maybe if the defense really performs well this season then the playmaker type becomes more attractive than a defensively minded one. Or maybe Martial picks up his form, or Pogba stays, or Greenwood truly nails down the striking spot and we don't need another attacker. There's definitely a lot that could change the priorities between now and then.

 

[#07]

We don’t play with a 6? You don’t really play with a 6 in a 4-2-3-1 formation. We need player to cover ground and get around the pitch. The thing is, McFred does work in a defensive aspect, it’s going forward and opening the game that’s the problem according to most.
we are linked with the likes of Camavinga for a reason

That's not really true. Most 4-2-3-1s operate with a 6, 8, 10. For example, at Bayern Kimmich is the 6, Goretzka is the 8 and Muller is the 10. The roles are clearly delineated and while Kimmich does contribute to Bayern's attack, its not a question of one staying and one going. Goretzka is the one who chases, harries, closes down and Kimmich has to show the positional responsibility and care of the ball to make sure Bayern aren't done on the counter. It was the same when it was Martinez, Schweinsteiger and Muller. Even Jose Mourinho, far from the most progressive coach, used a dedicated #6, #8 and #10 at Madrid: Xabi Alonso, Khedira (or Lass) and Ozil.

If you go through the teams that use 4-2-3-1 most there are very few who play in the way you're describing, where they take turns to go forward and backwards. What you're talking about is virtually a throwback to the 1990s when teams played 442 and you had Paul Ince and Roy Keane taking it turns to get up and down the pitch. That idea has been out of fashion for the best part of 20 years.

We play 4-2-3-1 differently, mostly to compensate for the weaknesses of McFred. They both have a tendency to step out and so they take turns covering one another. However, what we're doing is pretty uncommon.

In Rice's case, in a 4-2-3-1, he's the #6. He was next to Philips at the Euros, where Southgate let Philips go forward much more than Rice. And he is next to Soucek. Where Soucek is expected to go forward and meet crosses as an aerial threat in Moyes' system. So Rice can play as a #6. However, he's not a Kimmich, Martinez or Xabi Alonso type #6 and that naturally has implications for the shape and function of our midfield.

Obviously it will depend on the market and who's available, but I don't see us getting two first team quality midfielders in a single summer. I don't even think that's desirable, given that Cavani will be gone, perhaps Pogba, maybe Martial if his form doesn't pick up. That's quite a lot of attacking options gone, potentially. I suspect the better balance next summer will be to get one midfielder and one attacker, for the headline purchases anyway. If we're only getting one, then a defensively minded player is an obvious starting point.

Maybe if the defense really performs well this season then the playmaker type becomes more attractive than a defensively minded one. Or maybe Martial picks up his form, or Pogba stays, or Greenwood truly nails down the striking spot and we don't need another attacker. There's definitely a lot that could change the priorities between now and then.

I agree its unlikely that we will look to revolutionise our midfield in one window. United's tendency is to be the tortoise not the hare. And if we sign Rice or a Rice type I will understand it. It does fit a need. However, I think in the mid to long term we need to consider what we want from our midfield. If we have a #6 like Rice, will it affect our ability to move the ball up the pitch quickly to our dangerous players? The biggest issue with the McFred partnership is how slowly they get the ball forward and how often they shy away from riskier balls that better players could make to set our forwards off into space.

None of our midfield, except Pogba, plays those kind of passes regularly (although, to be fair, McTominay hit a few nice cross fields against Leeds). So if we're saying we're going for strength in front of the defence, then we gotta ask what we're getting from our #8s. Of the ones at the club, besides Pogba, only McTominay has shown himself to be willing to drive forward with the ball at his feet and he does not do it that consistently. So you then have to start asking if Fred and Van de Beek are the right players. Fred's passing just needs to be so much better, and at his age can we can expect it to massively improve? Van de Beek needs to discover a sense of adventure and drive that he's either lost or never had. Its a big issue at the heart of our side.

 

[Olecurls99]

He’s basic as they come. I mean how can you watch him and think he has any X factor? You keep saying he’s in the English team like that’s some extraordinary achievement, his partner in the middle is from Leeds so we might as well go for kalvin Phillips then right? I mean Henderson is the captain of Liverpool, you want him too?

The attributes I see people claiming in here is his defensive ability. He has average passing, not fast, doesn’t dictate play etc. the cons outweighs the pros and it’s not even close. For 80-100 million, no thanks.

Here here. All this Rice talk is ridiculous. He's a modern day David Batty. Anyone in here think David Batty was the answer to all our prayers back in the 90s.

Ridiculous waffle about a very very average player.