Declan Rice

[andersj]

The obsession people have here of downplaying Rice is ridiculous. There's a reason us alongside Chelsea and City are looking at him closely. He'll be just like Maguire where at face value it seems we overpaid(assuming we sign him) but people will massively appreciate his qualities once he plays a good number of games for us. Whichever of the 3 teams interested gets Rice they're very lucky and will be sorted for 8-10 years

I agree. There will be an annoying premium compared to someone like Tchouameni (who also looks very good!). The good thing about Rice, compared to Maguire, is that you hopefully could amortize that premium over ten years since he is very young.

 

[Highfather_24]

Sounds good, except for the fact that Pogba will leave on a free. Meaning we'll lack any sort of playmaking ability from deep and are going to have a hard time against the parked bus.

For the type of money Rice supposedly costs, we need a midfielder that can actually pass a football. FFS we used to have guys like Carrick and Scholes. Now we have Fred, McTominay, VDB and people are seriously going "you know what, let's add Rice". Unless Pogba signs an extension, we need to find someone to partner Fred. That's just the reality of the situation.

This. And even if Pogba stays, we should be looking to play him from the left or as a #10(that drifts to the left), and not as a CM.

 

[Adnan]

Very interesting numbers, but dont you think context is relevant when using stats like these?

Yes, his completion rate is lower than Fernandinho and Fabinho. But the completion rate of his team is 76.6 %. At Man City it is 88 %. At Liverpool 84 %. So while Fernandinho underperform compared to his team overall, Fabinho "overperform" with 7 %. Rice with 9 %. Quite relevant for context, dont you agree?

Same is relevant for number of passes. City completes 620 passes per game, Liverpool completes 567 passes and West Ham 329. In other words, Rice completes 12,3 % out of his team total. Fernandinho 11 % and Fabinho 11,5 %. Again, I would argue that this is very relevant for context.

The same, of course, apply to progressive passes. The share of progressive passes made by Rice, compared to total passes, is better than Fabinho and Casemiro (but not as good as Fernandinho). I would also argue that the number of passes into the penalty area, when looking at the numbers in context, is impressive compared to both Casemiro and Fabinho.

Furthermore, total distance and progressive distance is also a result of number of passes. On average, each pass Rice completes travel 19,2 yards. On average each pass moves 4,66 yards forward. Not much different from the rest.

Again, when looking at numbers, context is key. Adnan made a good point the other day about how style of play can also affect the numbers. Overall, I still dont think that the numbers «prove» that Rice is far off Fernandinho, Fabinho or Casemiro. In fact, using context, he is very similar to Fabinho.

I also think they fail to highlight something he is quite good at; moving the ball quickly by using both feets.

Great post

 

[Oranges038]

I agree. There will be an annoying premium compared to someone like Tchouameni. The good thing about Rice, compared to Maguire, is that you hopefully could amortize that premium over ten years since he is very young.

There are very few options out there and he seems to be the most obvious one now. I'd either be going in for him or Bissouma.

He's a very good player, but he has an excellent mentality and you can see that in how he plays. I think this could be one of the clinching points in any argument for him. He is good now, but he also has a drive to improve and be better.

I don't think he's worth over 50m, but if you pay 80m and have him for 10+ years that is still a good deal.

I remember people didn't think Carrick was worth what was paid for him.

 

[Adam-Utd]

What an absolutely terrific post
The obsession people have here of downplaying Rice is ridiculous. There's a reason us alongside Chelsea and City are looking at him closely. He'll be just like Maguire where at face value it seems we overpaid(assuming we sign him) but people will massively appreciate his qualities once he plays a good number of games for us. Whichever of the 3 teams interested gets Rice they're very lucky and will be sorted for 8-10 years

what qualities are there to massively appreciate? you act like he's Kante

He isn't even better than Fred or Mctominay so I doubt people will get raving about him, if anything he will have a big price tag to live up to.

 

[devilish]

I can't care less about Rice's progressive passing stats etc. First of all we're talking about a DM here not a regista, secondly these stats usually depend on the team they play in, the players they are partnered with and the manager's philosophy.

What concerns me is his fees. We spend roughly 80m-100m net spend every year give or take. Next season we're set to lose Lingard, Pogba while Mata and Matic would probably retire. Would you be happy if we lose all those players and only sign Rice and at most a 31 year old Trippier? Is he worth blowing our entire budget on him given circumstances?

 

[Drainy]

Whatever club he ends up at will have one of the best providers of stability in midfield in the PL for the next 10 years.

 

[andersj]

What concerns me is his fees. We spend roughly 80m-100m net spend every year give or take. Next season we're set to lose Lingard, Pogba while Mata and Matic would probably retire. Would you be happy if we lose all those players and only sign Rice and at most a 31 year old Trippier? Is he worth blowing our entire budget on him given circumstances?

My biggest concern too. Replacing Pogba will be hard regardless. Almost impossible. Mata, Lingard and Matic (contract to ‘23) is largely irrelevant.

I hope Garner can replace Matic. I also hope Laird can prove at Swansea that we dont need Trippier. Rice as a replacement for Pogba dont sound great, but also unfair as that would not be the purpose of Rice. Hopefully, Mejbri can step up too.

I would also be surprised if we are not looking to compete for Bellingham, probably in ‘23, and maybe as a replacement for Pogba (a year too late). A midfield of Rice, Bellingham and Mejbri sounds nice on paper.

It will be expensive, but I can also see us offloading a few players next years. Chong, Tuanzebe, Williams and Dalot. Maybe these players could raise as much as £40-50 mill?

Chelsea will compete for Rice and probably Bellingham too. The good thing is that Chelsea is stacked in midfield already. Jorginho and Kante have contracts expiring in ‘23, and I think they will be hard to offload before that (maybe not even desirable either). The timing of those leaving will probably make less of an option for Rice and more of an option for Bellingham assuming Bellingham leaves in ‘23.

Furthermore, they have a decision to make on Saul and a few of their youngsters.

 

[Bebestation]

Very interesting numbers, but dont you think context is relevant when using stats like these?

Yes, his completion rate is lower than Fernandinho and Fabinho. But the completion rate of his team is 76.6 %. At Man City it is 88 %. At Liverpool 84 %. So while Fernandinho underperform compared to his team overall, Fabinho "overperform" with 7 %. Rice with 9 %. Quite relevant for context, dont you agree?

Same is relevant for number of passes. City completes 620 passes per game, Liverpool completes 567 passes and West Ham 329. In other words, Rice completes 12,3 % out of his team total. Fernandinho 11 % and Fabinho 11,5 %. Again, I would argue that this is very relevant for context.

The same, of course, apply to progressive passes. The share of progressive passes made by Rice, compared to total passes, is better than Fabinho and Casemiro (but not as good as Fernandinho). I would also argue that the number of passes into the penalty area, when looking at the numbers in context, is impressive compared to both Casemiro and Fabinho.

Furthermore, total distance and progressive distance is also a result of number of passes. On average, each pass Rice completes travel 19,2 yards. On average each pass moves 4,66 yards forward. Not much different from the rest.

Again, when looking at numbers, context is key. Adnan made a good point the other day about how style of play can also affect the numbers. Overall, I still dont think that the numbers «prove» that Rice is far off Fernandinho, Fabinho or Casemiro. In fact, using context, he is very similar to Fabinho.

I also think they fail to highlight something he is quite good at; moving the ball quickly by using both feets.

Thanks. I couldn't have the ability or be bothered to go and do this.

 

[devilish]

My biggest concern too. Replacing Pogba will be hard regardless. Almost impossible. Mata, Lingard and Matic (contract to ‘23) is largely irrelevant.

I hope Garner can replace Matic. I also hope Laird can prove at Swansea that we dont need Trippier. Rice as a replacement for Pogba dont sound great, but also unfair as that would not be the purpose of Rice. Hopefully, Mejbri can step up too.

I would also be surprised if we are not looking to compete for Bellingham, probably in ‘23, and maybe as a replacement for Pogba (a year too late). A midfield of Rice, Bellingham and Mejbri sounds nice on paper.

It will be expensive, but I can also see us offloading a few players next years. Chong, Tuanzebe, Williams and Dalot. Maybe these players could raise as much as £40-50 mill?

Chelsea will compete for Rice and probably Bellingham too. The good thing is that Chelsea is stacked in midfield already. Jorginho and Kante have contracts expiring in ‘23, and I think they will be hard to offload before that (maybe not even desirable either). The timing of those leaving will probably make less of an option for Rice and more of an option for Bellingham assuming Bellingham leaves in ‘23.

Furthermore, they have a decision to make on Saul and a few of their youngsters.

Bellingham would cost a bomb, probably as much as Rice would. We're not going to spend 150m-180m on CMs even if we somehow get our money back from VDB.

We're shit in making good money out of outgoing transfers and I don't trust Ole with kids. The guy just love playing with a small squad and he tends to utilise as little rotation as possible which is kind of ironic considering that our squad size is huge. As said, there's every chance that we lose 3-4 players in midfield (Mata, Matic, Lingard and Pogba) and only sign Rice as replacement. That would put the guy under intense pressure.

 

[RkkMan]

Bellingham would cost a bomb, probably as much as Rice would. We're not going to spend 150m-180m on CMs even if we somehow get our money back from VDB.

We're shit in making good money out of outgoing transfers and I don't trust Ole with kids. The guy just love playing with a small squad and he tends to utilise as little rotation as possible which is kind of ironic considering that our squad size is huge. As said, there's every chance that we lose 3-4 players in midfield (Mata, Matic, Lingard and Pogba) and only sign Rice as replacement. That would put the guy under intense pressure.

The only player in need of replacement there is Pogba and there's a real chance we'll be forced to sign two CMs as a result, Rice and another CM for like half his fee. Mata, Matic and Lingard are 4th/5th choice players who barely play. You could put the likes of Amad, Garner, Shoretire and Mejbri as their replacements and you wouldn't feel a pinch

 

[RkkMan]

what qualities are there to massively appreciate? you act like he's Kante

He isn't even better than Fred or Mctominay so I doubt people will get raving about him, if anything he will have a big price tag to live up to.

You must have been talking this way about Maguire before we signed him but here we are all raving about him. Again there must be something in him if Tuchel and Pep also want him

 

[Adam-Utd]

You must have been talking this way about Maguire before we signed him but here we are all raving about him. Again there must be something in him if Tuchel and Pep also want him

Nope. I could see the qualities and weaknesses Maguire brings. I can see the same for Rice.

Maguire is a clear upgrade on what we had, can you honestly say the same for Rice? I don't think he's better than Mctominay.

 

[lex talionis]

The difficulty many, myself included, have with Rice is that he's been vastly overhyped. I don't think anyone here questions that he's a decent footballer and that at the age of 22 he will improve and perhaps reach the level he's simply not at yet. If we're buying for the future let's go with Rice, but if we were (during the last transfer window) buying for now for me Phillips is the superior midfielder. And at 25, Phillips will be around for a while.

 

[Kostov]

He didn’t retire that long ago and he is constantly singing the praises of McTominay even to the point of saying he should play in every big game in 2021.
Just read your post. Who else has a pure DM like Rice, in their squad, in 2021? Where is the proof that football has moved on to this? The elite are after the Bellingham’s, Verratis, Kantes, Gundogans etc. Not Rice.
His side in 08 played every bit of modern football as the elite sides do today. That side was ahead of its times and it was Sir Alex who saw it

Pure CDM are part successful teams in the last few years, Casemiro and Fabinho spring to mind, and I would count Kante as well. Yes the elite are after Bellingham but what does that have to do with someone like Rice? Sir Alex preferred his own way, and I’d rather we find a young Carrick than Rice, but there is no such player today.

 

[Kostov]

Seriously? It's a team game, everyone's ability isn't set neatly in a box. You mean like a defender who can pass? Why do they need to pass if they're defenders? Are we expecting Rice's midfield counterpart not to do any significant defending on this basis as well?
Its an utterly flawed argument in order to justify Rice's limitations. That type of mindset is decades old, and it's why no top teams play with such a limited DM. It's a prerequisite of a good midfielder, particularly one that plays for Manchester United, that they have some capability on the ball. They don't have to be Bruno to have a positive influence. And no, I'm sorry, but it's absolute horseshit that his passing is better than Fred's. Both statistically and by the eye test, Fred is comfortably better. We're again returning to this bizarre celebration of mediocrity, where s player not doing anything other than the safest thing is somehow a good thing. It's not tidy, it's cowardly.

Mentioning creativity and Fred is absolute bollocks, the guy is such a limited and uncreative midfield who is also shit as a CDM. Just because he has some statistic by 0,02 decimals in his favour means feck all about his passing, and the eye test… Fred is horrendous and fecks up simple passes consistently or putting his teammates in awkward receiving situations, no statistic can change that. Rice is comfortably better.

 

[Kostov]

Not being more creative on the ball isn't a positive attribute for a midfielder
Rice just makes the most uninventive pass available, not that I don't rate his off the ball work.

What kind of creativity are you talking about when the guy is absolute shit passer? Is he creative by running around?

 

[Van Piorsing]

The difficulty many, myself included, have with Rice is that he's been vastly overhyped. I don't think anyone here questions that he's a decent footballer and that at the age of 22 he will improve and perhaps reach the level he's simply not at yet. If we're buying for the future let's go with Rice, but if we were (during the last transfer window) buying for now for me Phillips is the superior midfielder. And at 25, Phillips will be around for a while.

Perhaps next summer Phillips could go with two years left on contract. If Leeds continue to struggle should be much easier than getting Rice, but If Rice will have a monster season and it's quite possibility then we should seriously consider letting go of Matić and another one from Fred or Donny and make it a summer focused solely on midfield.

Not much on Tchouameni so far, could be decent alternative, even lesser fee than Phillips.

 

[ivaldo]

Mentioning creativity and Fred is absolute bollocks, the guy is such a limited and uncreative midfield who is also shit as a CDM. Just because he has some statistic by 0,02 decimals in his favour means feck all about his passing, and the eye test… Fred is horrendous and fecks up simple passes consistently or putting his teammates in awkward receiving situations, no statistic can change that. Rice is comfortably better.

I suppose it is when you believe a defensive midfielder doesn't have to have any ability on the ball And FYI, it isn't some random statistic. This talentless, horrendous player who fecks up simple passes beats him up accross the board. If Fred is so woefully incompetent on the ball, what the feck does that make Rice? But sure, let's splash a ton on him and wonder why our build up play has got worse. I'm more than happy to find an upgrade on Fred, but I'd like one that would actually improve on our weaknesses, not exacerbate them.

 

[MrMarcello]

I suppose it is when you believe a defensive midfielder doesn't have to have any ability on the ball And FYI, it isn't some random statistic. This talentless, horrendous player who fecks up simple passes beats him up accross the board. If Fred is so woefully incompetent on the ball, what the feck does that make Rice? But sure, let's splash a ton on him and wonder why our build up play has got worse. I'm more than happy to find an upgrade on Fred, but I'd like one that would actually improve on our weaknesses, not exacerbate them.

Might as well clone CM O'Shea 05-06 and save the funds.

 

[Kostov]

I suppose it is when you believe a defensive midfielder doesn't have to have any ability on the ball And FYI, it isn't some random statistic. This talentless, horrendous player who fecks up simple passes beats him up accross the board. If Fred is so woefully incompetent on the ball, what the feck does that make Rice? But sure, let's splash a ton on him and wonder why our build up play has got worse. I'm more than happy to find an upgrade on Fred, but I'd like one that would actually improve on our weaknesses, not exacerbate them.

And you think replacing Fred with Rice won’t improve our massive defensive weakness through the middle? Our build up play suffers much more from a lack of quality wing play and a quality striker. Getting Sancho and Ronaldo might change that imo.

I wonder what is your preferred midfielder addition that will bring defensive stability and dictate play?

 

[andersj]

We're not going to spend 150m-180m on CMs even if we somehow get our money back from VDB.

As you said, we spend £100 mill net each year (probably north of it). I can see us selling Chong, Dalot, Williams, Tuanzebe, Martial and Donny before ‘23. Maybe even Fred if we are looking to buy Rice/Bellingham (and bring up Garner/Mejbri).

We will also free up a lot of wages related to Matic, Pogba, Lingard, Jones, Cavani (in addition to Donny and Martial).

And tbh, there is not that much left to spend money on. A striker probably if we sell Martial, probably a goalkeeper. Right back? Depends on Laird. The big thing we need to fix is central midfield. Spending big on players with ten years plus left would have a big cash effect, but it is also easier to justify.

 

[ivaldo]

Might as well clone CM O'Shea 05-06 and save the funds.

Pretty much it.

 

[Bebestation]

For me what's quite interesting is that Ole has been a manager that has supposedly "played on a players pure ability" hasn't he? Yet people say that Rice is a player that has hardly shown a thing.

This is where I watched him and decided to focus on his pure abilities and to see why would Ole potentially be interested in him if he was only interested in a player with an ability that stuck out.

It's where I realised that Declan Rice is a fantastic reader of the game and is able to nullify an attack before it happens.

A CB in midfield. It may be said as a negative with regards to his technique but his defensive ability to outdo the attackers before they even get a chance on the rest of the deeper CB'S is amazing.

Now why is it he wanted and why is he not wanted by some?

Some regard the key to breaking down an opposition low block is to have a deep lying playmaker and have a quicker accurate passer to provide the goods when needed.

On the other side, some believe that the key to breaking the low block is to have more players further up the pitch with an attacking freedom. This United team already has great defensive individuals in AWB, Varane, Maguire and Shaw - people must not underestimate what Rice could do to a back 4 that is good on its own hands and could be untouchable with a midfielder who would stop the defenders having to deal with an attack just in front of them. We saw a little bit of this for England - not many attacks were done vs England if I remember right until the final of the Euros.

Now what does Rice do to our attack? He protects the CB'S and allows our CB'S to play a higher line and our fullbacks to get forward.It will make our whole team more compact and play closer together, allowing our attacking players be up the pitch and not have to come back. If you notice how Matic plays in a defensive 3 triangle then you can see what Rice would do here, except Rice is the faster younger version - able to play this game further up the pitch than deeper.

Varane - Maguire
AWB - Rice - Shaw​

 

[ivaldo]

And you think replacing Fred with Rice won’t improve our massive defensive weakness through the middle? Our build up play suffers much more from a lack of quality wing play and a quality striker. Getting Sancho and Ronaldo might change that imo.

I wonder what is your preferred midfielder addition that will bring defensive stability and dictate play?

Our 'massive' defensive weakness rarely came from teams playing through us though. Most of our issues came from our lack of dominance in game, our inability to finish teams off, and a weakness from set plays, which hopefully has been sorted from this season.

Man City, Liverpool and Chelsea, our 3 biggest rivals this season, all had more possession than us last season, they all had better pass accuracy, they all had more shots per game. Conversely, none of those teams scored highly on the counter, while we came behind only Leeds. They were able to put teams to the sword. You have to go all the way down to 16th to find a team that drew more games than we did. Just look what was done to us in the EL final. Our biggest issue wasn't teams cutting through us, it was our inability to a.) deal with good teams pressing us, and b.) breaking down low blocks. Having Simon Simple Pass doesn't help with that at all. Of course that doesn't mean we can't improve in that area or that the next player to come in should he Pirlo, but it does mean we shouldn't be exacerbating those preexisting issues. We have one of the best attacking units in the world. It means sod all if we don't have a midfield that can create links to them, or if we're pissing around at the back for 20 minutes because we don't have an effective route out. We have Varane and his pace at the back. Time we compress the pitch like every other top team does and play the majority of the game in our opponents half.

I don't pretend to have a vast knowledge of players playing abroad. Out of the available options this season I would've preferred Neves over Rice. Someone like Brozovic would be great. From what little I've seen and heard about Koopmeiners seems like someone who should absolutely be on our radar. Anything but a antiquated destroyer.

 

[devilish]

The only player in need of replacement there is Pogba and there's a real chance we'll be forced to sign two CMs as a result, Rice and another CM for like half his fee. Mata, Matic and Lingard are 4th/5th choice players who barely play. You could put the likes of Amad, Garner, Shoretire and Mejbri as their replacements and you wouldn't feel a pinch

I think you have to see the bigger picture.

A- Cavani will leave next summer and a 37 year old Ronaldo will need quality cover/competition. Greenwood would find himself needed upfront more then ever
B- Mata and Lingard will be gone. That leaves us with Rashford, Martial and Sancho for 2 roles. Martial seem to have lost any incentive to play with us which means that we'll probably have to replace him. We're not that great in selling players so we'll be lucky to get 20m-30m for him. In all probability he'll go on loan with right to buy.
C- Matic will probably retire and Pogba will probably leave. I very much doubt that Ole will keep his promise with VDB which means he'll probably cause us all sort of troubles to leave in Summer as well. Once again we'll be lucky if we get 20m - 30m from him at that point

Now Rice would probably cost us 100m which means our entire transfer budget. With so many names leaving the pressure on him would be ridiculously high.

Ideally the club should loan as many young players as humanely possible. Mejbri, Amad and Elanga should be playing regular first team football preferably in a less physically demanding football (Serie A?). Thus they'll build a name and get that experience needed to come to United and be considered as regular squad members options.

 

[devilish]

As you said, we spend £100 mill net each year (probably north of it). I can see us selling Chong, Dalot, Williams, Tuanzebe, Martial and Donny before ‘23. Maybe even Fred if we are looking to buy Rice/Bellingham (and bring up Garner/Mejbri).

We will also free up a lot of wages related to Matic, Pogba, Lingard, Jones, Cavani (in addition to Donny and Martial).

And tbh, there is not that much left to spend money on. A striker probably if we sell Martial, probably a goalkeeper. Right back? Depends on Laird. The big thing we need to fix is central midfield. Spending big on players with ten years plus left would have a big cash effect, but it is also easier to justify.

We're not very good in selling players though. If we were then the likes of Chong, Martial, Dalot and Jones would probably be gone by now.

 

[Abraxas]

The difficulty many, myself included, have with Rice is that he's been vastly overhyped. I don't think anyone here questions that he's a decent footballer and that at the age of 22 he will improve and perhaps reach the level he's simply not at yet. If we're buying for the future let's go with Rice, but if we were (during the last transfer window) buying for now for me Phillips is the superior midfielder. And at 25, Phillips will be around for a while.

Superior at what?

Phillips is a nothing player at the top level of football. He's an okay passer, well...there are a lot of decent passers around, he's not exceptional. He's not that great defensively, he's okay defensively, not as good as Rice. He doesn't break forward that well but he can do it occasionally. He's not that much of a threat to provide or score goals but he'll do it occasionally. Seems to be a pretty consistent theme, he's not that great at anything in particular but he's not bad as well, it's probably why he's playing for Leeds United at 25.

No way near good enough for this football club, we should not be looking at guys that provide a 5% upgrade on Scott McTominay, they should be class, potentially class or at least have a clearly defined skillset, which Rice does have.

 

[RooneyLegend]

Those that want us to pay big money for him are out of their minds.

 

[lex talionis]

Perhaps next summer Phillips could go with two years left on contract. If Leeds continue to struggle should be much easier than getting Rice, but If Rice will have a monster season and it's quite possibility then we should seriously consider letting go of Matić and another one from Fred or Donny and make it a summer focused solely on midfield.

Not much on Tchouameni so far, could be decent alternative, even lesser fee than Phillips.

We shall see, but I have a gut feeling Leeds will struggle to end the season in the top half of the table. Phillips might be there for the taking and for me at least I'd rather spend 60m on Phillips than 100m on Rice. I only know Tchouameni from YouTube videos, but based on that alone he looks a very decent option very much gettable, as you say, for less than either Phillips or Rice.

But I wonder whether Ole held off on a CDM this summer to see how Garner develops this season.

 

[Bebestation]

For England - who did people think was better, Phillips or Rice?

 

[lex talionis]

Superior at what?

Nearly all aspects of midfield play, clearly as a passer, but I'll grant you it's a tossup between the two in defending.

 

[Abraxas]

Nearly all aspects of midfield play, clearly as a passer, but I'll grant you it's a tossup between the two in defending.

He's not though, he's a better passer potentially, or I'd probably rather say a better long passer because they both pass 10 yards consistently but neither is that incisive. This is major criticism of England in midfield, that neither is offering much progressively.

Rice is more physical and the better defensive player which covers a whole range of skills. I don't think it's a toss up, I think it's fairly clear in this department and that's why Rice is anchoring and probably the one the manager wouldn't want to lose because who do you replace him with? Henderson is not a bad Phillips step in.

It's also a huge proportion of midfield play, particularly as specialists are used by many sides. This is why I think the top sides are interested, being extremely adept in some areas can be more useful than being a reasonable all-rounder. It depends on the partnerships of course but I think this combined with his age and experience are why he's so valued.

I think we've got a pretty good all-rounder in McTominay to be honest, but if we are wanting a disciplined figure it's clear Rice is the option. Maybe him and Ndidi are the only options in the PL for that type, otherwise we will have to find a different composition.

 

[Cloud7]

There’s too much talk of replacing Pogba. We cannot replace Pogba. There’s only one player in world football with his vision, technical ability, physique and athleticism and it’s him.

If he leaves the team has to adapt to having a different type of midfielder taking his place.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

For England - who did people think was better, Phillips or Rice?

Rice by a mile. He put in some good interceptions including one on Lewandowski in the box. Add that to some decent passes, good energy throughout and you have a 7.5 at least. I have no idea what Phillips brought to the game. In fact the three including Mount provided England with barely any creativity which begged the question why you needed Phillips at all. Bellingham would have been an excellent foil to Rice.
The way this thread is going people expected Rice to impact that game on his own. We were woeful in many attacking areas and it was actually a god send that Poland equalised otherwise we’d have that Kane is the saviour and class will out. He was as ineffective as the whole front 3

 

[ivaldo]

I'm not seeing it. In Phillips I see a guy that's playing because England are bereft of serious midfield options. If he doesn't play we have to turn to Henderson and there's not much future in that.

Phillips and Rice play because Southgate believes the only way you can win an international trophy is to shackle your entire team. Bellingham is far and away the most talented English central midfielder.

 

[Abraxas]

Phillips and Rice play because Southgate believes the only way you can win an international trophy is to shackle your entire team. Bellingham is far and away the most talented English central midfielder.

I have to say I forgot about Bellingham. Potentially Bellingham and Rice could be very interesting. Maybe that would give something extra, who knows.

But I think it's always going to be Rice + 1 for Southgate. To be honest I think many managers would see it that way to allow England's forwards the freedom required. It would probably be the composition of the other midfielders that changes.

 

[Adam-Utd]

less defensive actions and progressions than Fred and Mctominay. Why are we wanting him again?

 

[Inigo Montoya]

less defensive actions and progressions than Fred and Mctominay. Why are we wanting him again?

Yet he looks and also looked very underwhelming everytime I've watched him. He was completely outshone by Rice against West Ham recently but we shouldn't worry about that should we? After all, it's a stick we use to beat Rice with and he plays for a side that should never have achieved what they did

 

[Bebestation]

Rice by a mile. He put in some good interceptions including one on Lewandowski in the box. Add that to some decent passes, good energy throughout and you have a 7.5 at least. I have no idea what Phillips brought to the game. In fact the three including Mount provided England with barely any creativity which begged the question why you needed Phillips at all. Bellingham would have been an excellent foil to Rice.
The way this thread is going people expected Rice to impact that game on his own. We were woeful in many attacking areas and it was actually a god send that Poland equalised otherwise we’d have that Kane is the saviour and class will out. He was as ineffective as the whole front 3

I agree. I didnt see the Yorkshire Pirlo thing for England. I hardly see an attack happen vs us and that was due to both but more to Rice's play.