And also a defensive midfielder who has always played beside another hardworking industrious CM alongside him, is now suddenly being seen as the answer to play as a lone DM to unlock attacking players like Pogba and Bruno.
Declan Rice
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And also a defensive midfielder who has always played beside another hardworking industrious CM alongside him, is now suddenly being seen as the answer to play as a lone DM to unlock attacking players like Pogba and Bruno.
As often with prospective transfers, people see what they want to see rather than what’s in front of them.
I think that people expect Rice to be better passer and have that „killer between the lines passes” ones or twice but its because right now we play with two 8’s in Fred and McT that are playing exactly the same roles, helping each other to do everything, one time Fred is further and McT is the last one, other time Fred is staying. So they need to be great in defence and also good in attack, but we all know they are avarage in everything.
If we got Rice he would be the one who keeps position at that CDM and his partner will be responsible for our offensive part of play trying to find forward players with his passing so Rice’s role will be to break the attacks and then pass the ball to that player.
And his passing is not that bad, maybe It look like he is only passing short but Mount is very defensive attacking midfielder so he is closer than Bruno will be, who is playing more as 2nd striker rather then midfielder.
I was yesterday at the stadium in Warsaw and i was so impressed how good Rice was at standing at the right place forcing Poland to move from the centre to the wing, first half he was exceptional, nothing get past him.
He is very good player at 22, his progress in the last 2 years was fantastic and i bet he is gonna get better but even if that was his peak he is still fantastic to our starting 11, few leveles above McT and Fred.
I do not have any doubts that he would be a success here.
The only question is, can we find someone as good for half the money WHU would want.
If we got Rice he would be the one who keeps position at that CDM and his partner will be responsible for our offensive part of play trying to find forward players with his passing so Rice’s role will be to break the attacks and then pass the ball to that player.
And his passing is not that bad, maybe It look like he is only passing short but Mount is very defensive attacking midfielder so he is closer than Bruno will be, who is playing more as 2nd striker rather then midfielder.
I was yesterday at the stadium in Warsaw and i was so impressed how good Rice was at standing at the right place forcing Poland to move from the centre to the wing, first half he was exceptional, nothing get past him.
He is very good player at 22, his progress in the last 2 years was fantastic and i bet he is gonna get better but even if that was his peak he is still fantastic to our starting 11, few leveles above McT and Fred.
I do not have any doubts that he would be a success here.
The only question is, can we find someone as good for half the money WHU would want.
I still really rate him and I think he would make us very solid defensively. I wouldn’t want to spend much more than £50/£60 million though as I reckon there are cheaper alternatives around.
What do you mean by that?
I feel like as of late, read 4 maybe 5 years, there is a certain reinterpretation of the past with an English nationalistic view on things. Neville said it a couple of times how United always ( read under SAF) went for the best English players in the league; something that just isn't true. We went for the best gettable players from the league, irrelevant of nationality. If Ferdinand, Carrick, Rooney and Keane to widen it to UK were big targets for us it was because of their incredible talent and being among the best in the World in their position, not the best of the English. We had a great English core, but again, not because of any nationalistic or "heart towards English players" but because we had a fantastic academy finding and making great footballers. and from those, only the once that were among the best in the World made the grade for first 11.
So unless Rice is the best in the World in his position or close to it, we should not pay best in the World level fees.
And even Keane who you mention was Irish
I think Fergie looked at players as fitting in quicker who were already good in the PL
Describing Fred as "creative" and comparing his creative stats is fecking pointless and not sure what does it bring in the grand scheme of things. He is not there to be creative because he is absolute shit of a passer, on top of that he is absolute shit of a CDM. So what does that contribute to whether Rice would fit this team? Rice is twice the CDM Fred is, and that is clear to see for anyone having a good set of eyes.
I didn't call Fred creative, I said he was more creative than Rice. Its not a difficult distinction to make. Nor is it particularly difficult to understand that by worsening our passing ability in midfield it won't miraculously improve our ability to play though the press or dictate play against better teams, an obvious weakness to our team anyone with a good set of eyes can spot.
I thought he was great for England last night. Seems to have so much energy and gets all over the place. I'd love for us to sign him
Would immediately come in and improve our current midfield no end.
He's the kind of profile Fergie would've went for...
He'd fit into that bracket of Paul Ince, Gary Pallister, Andy Cole, Rio Ferdinand type of signing.
Young, talented, hungry with scope to improve, has leadership qualities, Premier League experience and is British.
He's the kind of profile Fergie would've went for...
He'd fit into that bracket of Paul Ince, Gary Pallister, Andy Cole, Rio Ferdinand type of signing.
Young, talented, hungry with scope to improve, has leadership qualities, Premier League experience and is British.
It means feck all and has no significance since Fred is not creative nor that is his purpose. It's like saying some plumber has better coding knowledge than another plumber who is much better in the line of work they are supposed to conduct and that is plumbing. And no we won't be worsening our passing ability in midfield with replacing Fred with Rice, Rice is a much tidier passer from what I have seen of him, compared to Fred, and yet again Rice won't be brought to improve our ability to play through the press or dictate play with his passing, we have a glaring hole in the midfield and that is no proper screening and protection from midfield. Take a look at Wolves, any break out runner hits directly at the defense, while Fred was fumbling behind like a drunk. It won't happen with Rice in midfield, and that stability that he will provide will help us dictate the game through Pogba and Bruno.
And that's fair enough. We went for the best players in the league whilst also utilising players that we bought up from our youth system that were at alot of times British.
The thing is that people are acting like Rice is not one of the best CDM in the PL though.
It's a bit of a contradiction to say that we had a history of buying the best position players in the PL then potentially be disssapointed in a manager potentially buying Rice after undertaking an arguably 85-90% successful transfer rate aswell.
If he is one of the best CDM in the league with all the data and the performances that Ole and Co will be looking at - I'm not sure why people are so disappointed and talking about his price which is an indication of his nationality, potential loyalty and PL experience already. Im not sure why its just okay to pay 70-80 million for Sancho who has no experience in the PL (and boy does it show with his inability to get past a single player so far), with the history of poor transfers out from Dortmund not just to United but to multiple clubs, the fact that he is a British player potentially capable of being loyal to us aswell and improvement but it isn't okay to pay that for Rice.
I know what people will say about Rice's technique on the ball - but defensive off the ball players have sometimes been the missing link in many many a teams and its rarer than people think. Even if we get a deep lying playmaker- I don't see why that suddenly stops us needing a player like Rice either.
Rice is an British player arguably one of the best CDM in the PL. Some may even argue that he was one but the best CDM along side the Italians in the Euro's this year too. That may not be agreed upon but to say that Rice is not in the category of some of the best CDM of the PL at the age of 22 is wrong. That is why Ole wants him.
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Why do people constantly bring Sir Alex into this as if this complete guess backs up their opinion? Have you seen the midfields Sir Alex had? He had the ghost of Carrick, Scholes and Giggs there, it was the most neglected position in our squad for many years. I honestly can’t think of a player he signed that was as limited as Rice. He wanted Utd in the front foot, not a sitting DM
He is one of the best CDM around and probably the youngest out of the bunch. People love to spout bullshit and discredit his performances in the league. I mean okey of you think he is not the right fit and we need another profile of player, but at what he and the likes of Ndidi do, he is absolute top notch an one of the best in the world.
Yes he did, I agree, but times have changed, the team has changed. so has the game of football.
He didn’t retire that long ago and he is constantly singing the praises of McTominay even to the point of saying he should play in every big game in 2021.
Just read your post. Who else has a pure DM like Rice, in their squad, in 2021? Where is the proof that football has moved on to this? The elite are after the Bellingham’s, Verratis, Kantes, Gundogans etc. Not Rice.
His side in 08 played every bit of modern football as the elite sides do today. That side was ahead of its times and it was Sir Alex who saw it
City with Fernandinho. Liverpool with Fabinho. Madrid with Casemiro. All vital cogs in their teams successes. All pure DM's. The only one I would say who comes across as a more technically proficient player than Rice is Casemiro, but three of the most successful teams in the last few years have had pure DM's.
I don’t know if I rate him or not.
Ive seen him have some really good games and some meh games. He breaks up play really well, strong and good in the air. His passing is average.
I guess it will all depend on the system he plays in.
Ive seen him have some really good games and some meh games. He breaks up play really well, strong and good in the air. His passing is average.
I guess it will all depend on the system he plays in.
He is good I think. One of those players who generally could do more fancy stuff but deliberately doesn't, is learning not to. Like Keane a bit. I mean not as good as Keane almost certainly but that kind of style.
I mean his passing is generally good, he can shoot, he is good in the air, but he seems to know (normally) what his role is, and that is to cover, all the time.
I mean his passing is generally good, he can shoot, he is good in the air, but he seems to know (normally) what his role is, and that is to cover, all the time.
I mean ideally you'd want some with the defensive abilities as well as being able to dictate play but do we actually need that given the current attacking top heavy squad imbalance? Particularly if Pogba stays, Rice's job would effectively be to break up play, get the ball back and recycle as quickly as possible to Pogba and Bruno to make the killer pass.
Some people seem to have a clear misunderstanding of how Sir Alex operated. Sure he liked to have British core of players and he would break the bank for any exceptional young British + Irish talent. The evidence to that is clear (Keane, Ince, Rooney etc). However he wouldn't throw money around for players he deemed to be way overpriced. In fact he ridiculed Leeds for spending 18m on a young Rio Ferdinand.
In terms of local talent Sir Alex seemed to have worked on a three tier system.
A- The exceptional local talent he would be more then keen to break the bank upon ( Keane, Ince, Rooney, Rio)
B- He would pay realistic fees for players who had the potential to do well at the club and become WC (Hargreaves, Carrick, Smith etc)
C- He was always on the look out for cheap punts who could either aid the squad in the short term or had an outside chance of becoming decent talent (Sharpe, Owen, Foster etc)
Rice would qualify in Section B. There's no chance in hell that Sir Alex would spend 100m on the guy especially since he's got McT and Garner at his disposal. To tweak Sir Alex's quote. "If Rice is worth 100m then how much is McT's worth? 200m?"
In terms of local talent Sir Alex seemed to have worked on a three tier system.
A- The exceptional local talent he would be more then keen to break the bank upon ( Keane, Ince, Rooney, Rio)
B- He would pay realistic fees for players who had the potential to do well at the club and become WC (Hargreaves, Carrick, Smith etc)
C- He was always on the look out for cheap punts who could either aid the squad in the short term or had an outside chance of becoming decent talent (Sharpe, Owen, Foster etc)
Rice would qualify in Section B. There's no chance in hell that Sir Alex would spend 100m on the guy especially since he's got McT and Garner at his disposal. To tweak Sir Alex's quote. "If Rice is worth 100m then how much is McT's worth? 200m?"
Are.. are you for real? You have seen Fernandinho and Fabinho play and you think they are not more technical than Rice? And that only Casemiro is more technical?
Have a look at passing. Rice's passing makes Matic look like peak Zidane. His passing is sideways and backwards. Look at the # of passes and completion %, the progressive passes. In fact the only possession stat where he is better than Fernandinho or Fabinho is dribbles completed, although your CDM dribbling is probably the last thing you want.
We don't need another Schneiderlin. We need someone with good distribution from CDM.
I don't think SAF would have spent 70-80 million on Sancho either. He doesn't definitely fit A considering he was playing in Dortmund and had some 'inconsistent' games outside the Bundesliga.
These are the sort of maniacs you're arguing with i'm afraid.Are.. are you for real? You have seen Fernandinho and Fabinho play and you think they are not more technical than Rice? And that only Casemiro is more technical?
Have a look at passing. Rice's passing makes Matic look like peak Zidane. His passing is sideways and backwards. Look at the # of passes and completion %, the progressive passes.
We don't need another Schneiderlin. We need someone with good distribution from CDM.
They genuinely watch Rice and put him on a pedestal for some weird reason. He's one of the most basic CM's around, people will lose patience with him VERY quickly if we did sign him.
Jadon is tricky. Sancho's potential to become WC is clearly there and he's got something that the likes of Rice doesn't have and that Sir Alex always loved in a player ie versatility. If you ask me I think he would develop Greenwood as STK, Rashford as LW and Sancho as RW. The two Frenchmen would be out of the club though especially Martial. I shiver at the thought of Martial going back in Sir Alex's dressing room after barely touching the ball throughout the entire game.
Fabinho - 27
Fernandinho - 55
Rice 22.
Fernandinho - 55
Rice 22.
They aren’t pure DMs at all and everyone of them have talent on the ball that’s tiers above Rice.
Put down the crack-pipe
I mean I will when I can be bothered.
Again, at the age of 22 - you do not think he is one of the best CDM in the league just because your eyes tells you he isn't. Even though he plays and records stats at the age of 22 where he is one of the best in the league.
And it's not me who says it, it's the professional footballers and managers and the videos and the stats and whatever.
Yet we belive Mad Mike because we should be scared because a player can be valued purely by his passing ability.
Okay dokie.
Stop snorting the coke.
Seriously? It's a team game, everyone's ability isn't set neatly in a box. You mean like a defender who can pass? Why do they need to pass if they're defenders? Are we expecting Rice's midfield counterpart not to do any significant defending on this basis as well?
Its an utterly flawed argument in order to justify Rice's limitations. That type of mindset is decades old, and it's why no top teams play with such a limited DM. It's a prerequisite of a good midfielder, particularly one that plays for Manchester United, that they have some capability on the ball. They don't have to be Bruno to have a positive influence. And no, I'm sorry, but it's absolute horseshit that his passing is better than Fred's. Both statistically and by the eye test, Fred is comfortably better. We're again returning to this bizarre celebration of mediocrity, where s player not doing anything other than the safest thing is somehow a good thing. It's not tidy, it's cowardly.
All of them are levels about Rice on the ball. I wonder whether people even watch these players.
This actually shows Rice in a more positive light than you think.Are.. are you for real? You have seen Fernandinho and Fabinho play and you think they are not more technical than Rice? And that only Casemiro is more technical?
Have a look at passing. Rice's passing makes Matic look like peak Zidane. His passing is sideways and backwards. Look at the # of passes and completion %, the progressive passes. In fact the only possession stat where he is better than Fernandinho or Fabinho is dribbles completed, although your CDM dribbling is probably the last thing you want.
We don't need another Schneiderlin. We need someone with good distribution from CDM.
West Ham play much less of a possession-based game than Liverpool. And much, much, much less than City. So it stands to reason that Rice will attempt fewer passes than the other two, because he'll get the ball far less than the other two.
But what the stats do show is that Rice is a significantly better dribbler than both. And that he pulls off a progressive pass 6.7% of the time, compared to 5.3% by Fabinho and 10.3% by Fernandinho. If we're talking about technique as you claim, Rice is more or less in the same bracket as the others overall. He just lacks the platform to show it.
I'd beg to differ.
In spite of attempting fewer passes and fewer forward passes than either Brazilian, he still has lower passing success across all categories (short, medium and long range passes). And we haven't just seen Rice for West Ham, we've seen him for England too. The suggestion that given a better platform he might become a better distributor on par with Fernandinho, is frankly preposterous. He'd need to improve helluva lot to get there.
He does seem a better dribbler though, that's for sure.
Not being more creative on the ball isn't a positive attribute for a midfielder
Rice just makes the most uninventive pass available, not that I don't rate his off the ball work.
Sounds good, except for the fact that Pogba will leave on a free. Meaning we'll lack any sort of playmaking ability from deep and are going to have a hard time against the parked bus.
For the type of money Rice supposedly costs, we need a midfielder that can actually pass a football. FFS we used to have guys like Carrick and Scholes. Now we have Fred, McTominay, VDB and people are seriously going "you know what, let's add Rice". Unless Pogba signs an extension, we need to find someone to partner Fred. That's just the reality of the situation.
Not being more creative on the ball isn't a positive attribute for a midfielder
Rice just makes the most uninventive pass available, not that I don't rate his off the ball work.
Sounds good, except for the fact that Pogba will leave on a free. Meaning we'll lack any sort of playmaking ability from deep and are going to have a hard time against the parked bus.
For the type of money Rice supposedly costs, we need a midfielder that can actually pass a football. FFS we used to have guys like Carrick and Scholes. Now we have Fred, McTominay, VDB and people are seriously going "you know what, let's add Rice". Unless Pogba signs an extension, we need to find someone to partner Fred. That's just the reality of the situation.
And let's not forget that for the supposed money that Rice will cost we can get both a DM and a playmaker CM. You want EPL proven? Sure. Bissouma and Tielemans will be entering the final year of their contracts next summer and can probably be bought for a combined to cost of ~80m.
But no let's go spunk that on Rice, sounds like a great idea.
Off the ball his defensive positioning is quality, but on the ball he offers very little, he can run with it but just into dead ends, I think if Southgate is replaced or stops being so cautious he'd pair well with Bellingham for England.
For anything more than 50 we should stay well clear
I don’t think we’ll ever agree mate. I think he’s a much better passer than Fred, better range and much more consistent with his passing. Fred is more likely to play the ball into danger when pressed than Rice. McTominay is probably better at carrying the ball than him but McTominay is very good at that in fairness. Like I say though, I don’t think we’ll agree because I think Rice is solid technically unlike Fred.
Are.. are you for real? You have seen Fernandinho and Fabinho play and you think they are not more technical than Rice? And that only Casemiro is more technical?
Have a look at passing. Rice's passing makes Matic look like peak Zidane. His passing is sideways and backwards. Look at the # of passes and completion %, the progressive passes. In fact the only possession stat where he is better than Fernandinho or Fabinho is dribbles completed, although your CDM dribbling is probably the last thing you want.
We don't need another Schneiderlin. We need someone with good distribution from CDM.
Very interesting numbers, but dont you think context is relevant when using stats like these?
Yes, his completion rate is lower than Fernandinho and Fabinho. But the completion rate of his team is 76.6 %. At Man City it is 88 %. At Liverpool 84 %. So while Fernandinho underperform compared to his team overall, Fabinho "overperform" with 7 %. Rice with 9 %. Quite relevant for context, dont you agree?
Same is relevant for number of passes. City completes 620 passes per game, Liverpool completes 567 passes and West Ham 329. In other words, Rice completes 12,3 % out of his team total. Fernandinho 11 % and Fabinho 11,5 %. Again, I would argue that this is very relevant for context.
The same, of course, apply to progressive passes. The share of progressive passes made by Rice, compared to total passes, is better than Fabinho and Casemiro (but not as good as Fernandinho). I would also argue that the number of passes into the penalty area, when looking at the numbers in context, is impressive compared to both Casemiro and Fabinho.
Furthermore, total distance and progressive distance is also a result of number of passes. On average, each pass Rice completes travel 19,2 yards. On average each pass moves 4,66 yards forward. Not much different from the rest.
Again, when looking at numbers, context is key. Adnan made a good point the other day about how style of play can also affect the numbers. Overall, I still dont think that the numbers «prove» that Rice is far off Fernandinho, Fabinho or Casemiro. In fact, using context, he is very similar to Fabinho.
I also think they fail to highlight something he is quite good at; moving the ball quickly by using both feets.
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What an absolutely terrific post
The obsession people have here of downplaying Rice is ridiculous. There's a reason us alongside Chelsea and City are looking at him closely. He'll be just like Maguire where at face value it seems we overpaid(assuming we sign him) but people will massively appreciate his qualities once he plays a good number of games for us. Whichever of the 3 teams interested gets Rice they're very lucky and will be sorted for 8-10 years
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