Declan Rice

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

The negativity of a national team is somehow related to the attribute of an individual player. Great judgement. I bet you wouldn't want Kane either as he's a defensive player?

Kane and Rice, great comparison.

Rice is England’s negativity in a nutshell, it’s the only reason he plays, because of his defensive attributes. Incredible attacking talent is left rotting on the bench in favour of defensive players that suit the negative system.

 

[Strelok]

Rice is a quality player but not a £80m player. £50m is my take or leave it, including English tax.

He surely is a good addition to our squad and he's English, just the price tag

 

[Skills]

I remember the clammer for Morgan Schneiderlin a few years ago. Rice is about the same player.

Fred's miles better. Even McTominay's more useful because even though he's limited, he's added a few valuable things to his game (a decent cross field ball, a good shot). If he can improve his passing and works on his positional discipline, he'll be a better player than Rice because he's easily got more tools to work with.

 

[lysglimt]

Kane and Rice, great comparison.

Rice is England’s negativity in a nutshell, it’s the only reason he plays, because of his defensive attributes. Incredible attacking talent is left rotting on the bench in favour of defensive players that suit the negative system.

You are both right and wrong - the advantage of Rice is that he is a much better defensive midfielder than McTominay and Fred. If Rice is used correctly - we could move Shaw and AWB further up the pitch, and allow Pogba and Bruno to focus more on attack (and lets be honest - they are not very good at the defensive work).

If you want Rice to be a creative midfielder - then I agree with you - he is not good enough. If you want him to win the ball and give it to someone who is creative - Rice is very good. And we could have a much higher pressure as Rice would win the ball back much more effectively than McTominay and Fred.

 

[Kostov]

not here, not at all.

Here England is usually the second team. Not now though due to reasons I stated.

I find it hard to believe, since despite England adopting a more conservative approach, they were hardly Athletico Madrid negative for example. And just take a look at some of the Italian players antics for example (thinking of the video where Immobile was faking and injury then running 1 second later to celebrate, their constant surrounding of the ref), their is so much to hate about their way of playing, but neutrals were still rooting for them. On the other hand maybe where you come from is a exception I don't really know.

 

[Kostov]

You are both right and wrong - the advantage of Rice is that he is a much better defensive midfielder than McTominay and Fred. If Rice is used correctly - we could move Shaw and AWB further up the pitch, and allow Pogba and Bruno to focus more on attack (and lets be honest - they are not very good at the defensive work).

If you want Rice to be a creative midfielder - then I agree with you - he is not good enough. If you want him to win the ball and give it to someone who is creative - Rice is very good. And we could have a much higher pressure as Rice would win the ball back much more effectively than McTominay and Fred.

Very well put. I agree.

 

[Siorac]

Just reminds me so much of the clamber for Fellaini on here years back, cause he was always “a winner” with the right attitude.

Time we stop buying technically limited footballers.

Yes! I couldn't quite put my finger on why the Rice links, scarce as they have been, thankfully, irritated me so much but this is it.

And indeed, every player we sign should be comfortable on the ball. Much more so than Rice.

 

[Adisa]

Trying to compare Carrick and Rice is ridiculous.

 

[Bebestation]

England scored in the 3rd minute and proceeded to sit back in a tight formation after that - that's why he looked better than his other previous matches.

To say England were dominating Italy is just completely made up. We had probably a 15 minute period of being competitive until we decided to sit back and frustrate.

Rice is not the player we need. If we want to play like West Ham then great, but Ole doesn't want that for our team.

And see, you say that we sat back after 3 mins and later admit that we were playing competitively for 15 mins.

We were more competitive for longer than 15 mins in my opinion as I was quite happy until about the 33rd minute mark when we decided to give them the ball completely and they were moving it around at their own will.

Anyway, it’s just the way we individually watch it I guess.

 

[Skills]

You are both right and wrong - the advantage of Rice is that he is a much better defensive midfielder than McTominay and Fred. If Rice is used correctly - we could move Shaw and AWB further up the pitch, and allow Pogba and Bruno to focus more on attack (and lets be honest - they are not very good at the defensive work).

If you want Rice to be a creative midfielder - then I agree with you - he is not good enough. If you want him to win the ball and give it to someone who is creative - Rice is very good. And we could have a much higher pressure as Rice would win the ball back much more effectively than McTominay and Fred.

It's not as simple as that though. Ole got rid of Smalling because he wasn't good enough on the ball. That's your CB, who's expected to be comfortable on the ball.

Getting a limited DM is then just taking a step back after all the money we've (or are about to) invest in CBs who are good on the ball.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

You are both right and wrong - the advantage of Rice is that he is a much better defensive midfielder than McTominay and Fred. If Rice is used correctly - we could move Shaw and AWB further up the pitch, and allow Pogba and Bruno to focus more on attack (and lets be honest - they are not very good at the defensive work).
ely than McTominay and Fred.

Or you scout a technically sound DM instead that can play and allow the rest to do as you suggested.

 

[arnie_ni]

Football has moved on from the Carrick type of DMs. Carrick had a couple of good seasons but was never world class to be honest. He had a nice penetrating pass and was good at cutting of the lines. When defending but he wasn’t all that some people are making him out to be.

We need a high energy DM that needs to do 3 things clean up, protect our defence and just pass the ball to either Pogba or Bruno. Thats the way forward for this team high energy/runner in the DM position.

Veratti and Jorginho bossing their way to the euros say otherwise.

 

[arnie_ni]

A limited as feck destroyer who can take on several opponents and dribble into the final third on his own.

Then subsequently lose it or pass it back to maguire who's equally as good on the ball if not better.

 

[Ikon]

You are both right and wrong - the advantage of Rice is that he is a much better defensive midfielder than McTominay and Fred. If Rice is used correctly - we could move Shaw and AWB further up the pitch, and allow Pogba and Bruno to focus more on attack

Personally, I could see Rice playing like a third, more advanced CB, and his distribution quality wouldn't matter too much, because he'd have Varane and Maguire either side to play the ball out from the back.
Rice in this role, would allow the full backs greater attacking licence and also allow one CB to venture forward, as he would provide cover.
As said, also doing all the dirty work in midfield and turning the ball over to Bruno and Pogba to do their thing.

His role would be quite simple, win the ball back, provide cover, turn it over to the creative players.
Rice could do that exceptionally well.

 

[redshaw]

I find it hard to believe, since despite England adopting a more conservative approach, they were hardly Athletico Madrid negative for example. And just take a look at some of the Italian players antics for example (thinking of the video where Immobile was faking and injury then running 1 second later to celebrate, their constant surrounding of the ref), their is so much to hate about their way of playing, but neutrals were still rooting for them. On the other hand maybe where you come from is a exception I don't really know.

Probably more about having an abundance of attacking talent and not using it. The final summed it all up bringing on Sancho and Rashford with a minute to go in extra time and Grealish half way through extra time.

 

[Skills]

Personally, I could see Rice playing like a third, more advanced CB, and his distribution quality wouldn't matter too much, because he'd have Varane and Maguire either side to play the ball out from the back.
Rice in this role, would allow the full backs greater attacking licence and also allow one CB to venture forward, as he would provide cover.
As said, also doing all the dirty work in midfield and turning the ball over to Bruno and Pogba to do their thing.

His role would be quite simple, win the ball back, provide cover, turn it over to the creative players.
Rice could do that exceptionally well.

I think you're right, as I can only see him playing as a CB for a top team. But I don't think that's an option for us though - you can't have AWB as one of your wingbacks. And you can't play one of Bruno (doesn't fit in a 3-4-3) or Sancho anymore (doesn't fit in a 3-5-2).

 

[golden_blunder]

Football has moved on from the Carrick type of DMs. Carrick had a couple of good seasons but was never world class to be honest. He had a nice penetrating pass and was good at cutting of the lines. When defending but he wasn’t all that some people are making him out to be.

We need a high energy DM that needs to do 3 things clean up, protect our defence and just pass the ball to either Pogba or Bruno. Thats the way forward for this team high energy/runner in the DM position.

Wrong. Football goes in cycles.
Look at this final, we just saw the beauty of 2 cbs who primarily defend, can head and score!
Yet everyone for the last few years bangs on about playmaking cbs

 

[golden_blunder]

The way rice would work is

grealish - rice - Bruno

but that’s not going to happen.

I think he’s a very good PL player with huge potential but Southgate did him no favours.

but he will never catch a break from our fans so prove them wrong elsewhere

 

[Cloud7]

I look at him and I don’t see a player that has enough about his game to compete at the top level of club football. He’ll probably eke out a decent career at the level just below that but he seems too limited.

 

[Strelok]

Rice in this role, would allow the full backs greater attacking licence and also allow one CB to venture forward, as he would provide cover.
As said, also doing all the dirty work in midfield and turning the ball over to Bruno and Pogba to do their thing.

Against Ukraine, England had two DM, Rice and Phillips yet let Ukraine overun and cut through the midfield numerous times in the first half. The mighty Ukraine.

Against Italy, basically same thing. With a back 5, which most of the time stay back. Also the help of the Kane, Mount, Sterling.

Now you're expecting him to basically singlehandedly handle the defensive duties of the midfield and allow the FBs and a CB to venture foward. A bit too much imo.

 

[Hammondo]

You are both right and wrong - the advantage of Rice is that he is a much better defensive midfielder than McTominay and Fred. If Rice is used correctly - we could move Shaw and AWB further up the pitch, and allow Pogba and Bruno to focus more on attack (and lets be honest - they are not very good at the defensive work).

If you want Rice to be a creative midfielder - then I agree with you - he is not good enough. If you want him to win the ball and give it to someone who is creative - Rice is very good. And we could have a much higher pressure as Rice would win the ball back much more effectively than McTominay and Fred.

Comments like this just make me think we will never learn from matches like the England Italy game.

 

[Kostov]

Probably more about having an abundance of attacking talent and not using it. The final summed it all up bringing on Sancho and Rashford with a minute to go in extra time and Grealish half way through extra time.

Regardless of who played, some people would have rooted for Italy or whoever was against England. Southgate's approach was infuriating I agree.

 

[DiMaria]

I thought Rice was the only midfielder that held his own against the Italians. But definitely not for 80mp. We need someone next to Scott though, so if not him then another cdm should be a priority. I watched fred in the copa America (and all our games), he can have his moments and might look good against average opposition but really he cannot be a regular starter for us, good depth and an option to come off the bench or start here and there against lesser opposition. But like keano said we will never win anything major with him starting every game.

 

[youngrell]

Rice's clearly better at progressing the ball.

Rice's idea of progressing the ball is to play a 15 yard pass out to the full back ahead of him. We already have Maguire doing that 50 times a game and with better quality.

 

[Freak]

The way rice would work is

grealish - rice - Bruno

but that’s not going to happen.

I think he’s a very good PL player with huge potential but Southgate did him no favours.

but he will never catch a break from our fans so prove them wrong elsewhere

I don’t think fans opinions matter to be honest. As long as Ole and his scouts deem him suitable we should go for it. I remember how fans didn’t want Carrick when we were linked to him and look how that turned out (another example recently is Maguire, Cavani). The players that fans have recently gone full muppet over haven’t done as well more often than not (Schneiderlin, Falcao, Bastian, Memphis, Di Maria etc etc)

 

[cyberman]

You are both right and wrong - the advantage of Rice is that he is a much better defensive midfielder than McTominay and Fred. If Rice is used correctly - we could move Shaw and AWB further up the pitch, and allow Pogba and Bruno to focus more on attack (and lets be honest - they are not very good at the defensive work).

If you want Rice to be a creative midfielder - then I agree with you - he is not good enough. If you want him to win the ball and give it to someone who is creative - Rice is very good. And we could have a much higher pressure as Rice would win the ball back much more effectively than McTominay and Fred.

Teams rarely play with DMs today for a reason and we saw that reason. The midfield gets pushed back because the rest of the midfield are passed around since every team is so good at playing from the back now and a deep DM leaves the rest outnumbered. It leaves you in a low block, unable to get out.
Rice would be a disaster in our midfield and would trap the likes of Bruno into having to come deeper for the ball.
Shaw and AWB are forever getting to the byline, we literally cant push them any further up. They were two of the most attackibg fbs in Europe last season

 

[AltiUn]

It’s mad that people who don’t rate him and hate him are not dropping him from the “how England should line up tactical formations” but also obsessed talking about him so much that they are in the top 3 posters of this thread.

I definitely rate him, not for the ungodly amount West Ham would demand for him though.

 

[mitchmouse]

Probably be slaughtered by many. For me though I think people remember Carrick slightly with rose tinted glasses when he played a lot of his career for us in a weak midfield....and of course that midfielders since have struggled so much.

Personally though he was good, I thought he did struggle at times in the high tempo games and his lack of England opportunities for the first half of his career were not a travesty as he didnt shine as brightly as people made out.

I thought the last 4-5years for us Carrick really grew as a player with his experience and during that period, plaudits were far more deserved. But as a whole his career hear he was a very very good player, but not the legend he seems to be remembered as

I sort of agree but sometimes you have to buy a player early so that you've got him for his best years and he hasn't gone elsewhere. To some extent, I feel this way about Rice. It would be very disappointing if someone else got him and he turned out to be more Frank Lampard than Joe Cole

 

[CM]

The way rice would work is

grealish - rice - Bruno

but that’s not going to happen.

I think he’s a very good PL player with huge potential but Southgate did him no favours.

but he will never catch a break from our fans so prove them wrong elsewhere

Has Rice ever actually played as the sole DM in a midfield like that?

I think most DMs would struggle in a midfield with that balance anyway, but Rice has always played with another DM or box-to-box player as far as I can remember. Noble, Soucek and Phillips have been his regular midfield partners for club and country.

I think there's a good chance Pogba will be off this summer or next, and facilitating him is the only argument with any merit for spending big on Rice. Even then I'm not convinced he could actually do it.

I'd like to see us break away from this idea of a pure DM. I know plenty bemoan the defensive ability of McTominay and Fred but our biggest weakness in that pairing is the ability to pass the football. I don't think signing Rice does anything to remedy that. Camavinga plus one more who can use the ball well in deeper areas sounds far more appealing to me, even if we can't get both done this summer.

 

[Abraxas]

The stats don't backup Rice being a better passer than Fred at all. Fred plays more passes, as would be expected in their respective sides. He plays more progressive passes. They complete passes at a very much identical rate. So this isn't a claim based in any reality.

The truth is we watch Fred stumble every week and make a few mess ups so make harsh judgements but the stats say he is otherwise reliable. To say Rice is a better passer is nothing but gut feeling that is removed from reality.

 

[bucky]

Wrong. Football goes in cycles.
Look at this final, we just saw the beauty of 2 cbs who primarily defend, can head and score!
Yet everyone for the last few years bangs on about playmaking cbs

Both Chiellini and Bonucci are very good passers of the ball, especially Bonucci.

 

[Green_Red]

Rice is good at what he does which is break up play but he does not have the attributes of a CM we are looking for. He isn't an improvement on anyone in our starting XI. We need a CM that will automatically walk into the starting XI no questions asked.

 

[Strelok]

Both Chiellini and Bonucci are very good passers of the ball, especially Bonucci.

Agreed.

He's really good with his long passes. If only Italy had a better striker.

 

[bucky]

You are both right and wrong - the advantage of Rice is that he is a much better defensive midfielder than McTominay and Fred. If Rice is used correctly - we could move Shaw and AWB further up the pitch, and allow Pogba and Bruno to focus more on attack (and lets be honest - they are not very good at the defensive work).

If you want Rice to be a creative midfielder - then I agree with you - he is not good enough. If you want him to win the ball and give it to someone who is creative - Rice is very good. And we could have a much higher pressure as Rice would win the ball back much more effectively than McTominay and Fred.

Rice:

Fred:

 

[golden_blunder]

Both Chiellini and Bonucci are very good passers of the ball, especially Bonucci.

But not what he’s known for, they are known as good old fashioned stoppers

 

[bucky]

But not what he’s known for, they are known as good old fashioned stoppers

Bonucci is just as much known for his passing. There is a reason he is one of the best CBs of his generation, same with Chiellini, and it's not just for their ability without the ball.

 

[Revan]

Wrong. Football goes in cycles.
Look at this final, we just saw the beauty of 2 cbs who primarily defend, can head and score!
Yet everyone for the last few years bangs on about playmaking cbs

All four CBs in the final are extremely comfortable with the ball at their feet. So this was a weird example to make your point. Bonucci - next to Ramos - might be the best ball-playing CB in the world.

 

[golden_blunder]

Bonucci is just as much known for his passing. There is a reason he is one of the best CBs of his generation, same with Chiellini, and it's not just for their ability without the ball.

My point is that first and foremost he can defend . The passing is a bonus. It’s not like Torres or Lindelof where passing is talked about and defending is an after thought.

 

[golden_blunder]

All four CBs in the final are extremely comfortable with the ball at their feet. So this was a weird example to make your point. Bonucci - next to Ramos - might be the best ball-playing CB in the world.

See next post. I maybe didn’t word it correctly since I’ve 2 muppets pointing it out

 

[LuckyScout78]

Too make you guys more confure and this thread more chaos. I will come with my personally thoughts.

Rice is better with the ball than McTom. In the way of going forward, but not as keeping the ball. Because McTom is more explosive.
McTom is better destroyer and ballwinner than Rice
Fred is a better ballwinner than Rice
Rice is better with the ball than Fred
Matic is better with the ball than Rice
Rice is a better destroyer and ballwinner than Rice
Locatelli is a lot better with the ball than Rice
Rice is a better destroyer than Locatelli
Tchouaméni is better with the ball than Rice
Camavinga is better with the ball than Rice

So i hope mine thoughts and opinions have make it easier for you guys to come to a conclusion which DM/CM United shall go for and where Rice is as a player and DM. How good Rice is. And good luck with the endless personally point of view discussion. Personal thoughts will just lead to endless discussion = waste of time.

But in the end. Another personally opinion. United and Ole get to sell one of Fred and McTerminator. Before buying Declan Rice. No need for 3.4 DM in the squad. Include Matic. Waste of money and space.
And to claim Rice is a better destroyer and ballwinner than McTerminator?Not a chance. McTerminator is more explosive, quicker in the first metres, taller and longer feeets. More lightweight and easy on the toes than Rice. Rice is sligtly, just a little bit better on the ball.

If United buy a new CM. Then it get to be one of the upcoming creative cm players in Locatelli, Tchouaméni or Camavinga. United have engough destroyer in Fred and McTerminator. Drop one of of those two. Then go for a more really good creative cm to open up parking bus and tight defend. Scholes was really really and world class at it. Assist passes to the attackers. Scholes was world class at it. When Iniesta rate Scholes one of the best cm player. You know how good Scholes was out. No league trophy after Scholes retirement. Carrick was still there after Scholes retirement. But Carrick alone couldnt help much. Its a huge big whole United has solve yet. Even world champion and super creative and skillful Pogba couldnt reach Scholes level.
And Sir Alex knew exactly why he had to convince Scholes to come out of his retirement. And what happened when Scholes came out of retirement?To play his last season?Sir Alex was clever to retire too. When he knews Scholes retire second time.

Sorry nothing personally against Carrick. But not a chance Carrick was as good as Scholes. Scholes was world class creative cm player. A world class nr.8. Is about the creative and what you can do with the ball. All skills with the ball. Include finishing. Not a chance. Carrick is half level under Scholes. Carrick has never been a worldclass player.

Scholes worldclass and top level = 5 out of 5 point
Carrick = a half level under world class = 4.5 out of 5

Even i would pick Steven Gerrard over Carrick any day of the week.

The point is United need a new creative cm. In the direction of a complete creative, skillful and top finishing like Scholes and Gerrard. If United can get a new Scholes or Gerrard. Beside a world class and beast of a CB. Those 2 new world class players will make United premier league champion again. Then maybe a world class level of manager is required too. To match the level of world class players on the pitch. Not a chance if world class players join and work under a manager of championship level for example. Great and top leaders attract world class players. Hobby football managers attract hobby football players.

Conclusion and sum. Personally. If i am United manager and keep using 4-2-3-1. Then i will not buy Rice and a new Carrick type of player. BUT if i change formation from 4-2-3-1 too 4-3-3 with a deep laying DCM?Then i would go for a Carricka and Busquets type of DCM playmaker like Manuel Locatelli.

With 4-2-3-1, The nr.6 is a Roy Keane and Kante type of DM. Better and best in the defensive, but still capable of going and running forward with the ball. Like Keane and Kante. But they are better without the ball and in the defensive.
With 433 = Then that nr.6 i not a DM, but a DCM = Defensive central midfield player. or a deep laying creative cm player. Not a Roy Keane or Kante type of player. You get to know which kind of DM player you have to buy for different positions.

A reason why United have to sell one of Fred or McTom, before if buying Rice. If Ole and United will still use 4231 formation. No need for 3-4 DM in a Duo CM, in 4231 formation. If i am the owner of the club. I will definitely not give permission to buy a new DM, before you sell one of the current DM.
United were struggling and had problems of open up tight defend and parking bus. Because United were lacking a consistent top level nr.8. Pogba not consistent and injury. Even with Bruno helped a lot. But not enough. United need a nr.8 to combine with Bruno and the attacking upfront 4. Not only with passing, but many assist passes and triangle passes combination. Deliver and recieve the ball back combination. Scholes would defintely love to play in a team with Bruno, Rashford and Sancho. Some kind of a really fast and precise 5 a side combination. Then a peak and world class Scholes could do everything with the ball. That man is really really needed at United. Scholes out of retirement again.