Fred's a very good pressing midfielder and is a lot more active with his defending whereas Rice is the perfect example of a quality defensive midfielder who doesn't get dribbled past and he doesn't get out of position. That's far more valuable, though both are needed IMO. On the ball as well, Rice is very secure with it which is what we need. McTominay and Fred are both way too sloppy, too often are they dispossessed which is dangerous as a defensive mid, whereas that's not really a worry with Rice as he's quite good at keeping the ball and moving it along without getting caught out.
Declan Rice
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You said football goes in cycles and they can primarily defend, when in reality they wouldn't have been as successful as they have been during this period, if they weren't as good with the ball at their feet as they are without it. So, yes, people are right to bang on about playmaking CBs. Sergio Ramos, Varane, Pique, Umtiti, Thiago Silva, Hummels, Boateng, Kompany, Marquinhos, Bonucci, Chiellini and Pepe, all good at defending, but their passing was just as important to their team's success.
You’re missing my point. I love a defender that can defend first and foremost but also pass.
however the new wave seem to be more defenders who can’t head a ball very well, if at all and the first thing that comes to mind about them is on the ball work rather than defending. Torres and Lindelof being the 2 most prominent. The art of defending is changing for the worse in my opinion.
Fred > Rice
In a perfect world - I agree with you. But how many midfielders like that can you think of ? People keep saying Jorginho and Verratti are a lot better but one is 28 and the other is 29 and much more experienced than Rice, and neither have been that dominant for their respective club as they have been for Italy. We saw the best teams in Europe - and how many midfielders did their job a lot better than Rice ? Did Portugal have one ? Germany ? France ? Belgium ? I didn't see it - so maybe there aren't that many players out there that can do the job both defensively and going forward. Rice reminds me a lot of a young Paul Ince. And Ince was never great with the ball at his feet - but especially in the 93/94 season he was so good defensively that he more or less stopped all counter-attacks against us. I would say Ince in that one season, was more dominant than Roy Keane was in any season for us. I miss that kind of player - but I still think Rice is too expensive.
We've been over this before (maybe not with you personally)
Rice doesn't get dribbled past often because he's usually standing 5 feet in front of a centre back, there's no room to dribble past him.
If he was pressing up higher he would be, just look at how Chiesa got passed him with ease in the final.
Fred presses high, wins the ball a lot - but also gets dribbled past more often because he's pressing with momentum. Much easier to be harder to get around when starting from a standing position.
The problem with Fred - which isn't highlighed by stats like these is that he gives the ball away in a dangerous position 5-10 times every season. If those errors had been removed from Freds game he would be close to World-class, but they will probably never be removed. Roy Keane's biggest asset as a footballer was that he NEVER gave the ball away. You could pass the ball to Keane and he would know if there was an opponent close to him - and he would immediately play the ball to a team-mate - or if he was alone - he would turn and move forward.
Fred doesn't have this ability to always determine correctly when to keep the ball and when to pass it. But if you make a horrible error like that every 3 games - it still wont look too bad on the stats.
Yes but you need one of each in your midfield IMO. You need a presser and a sitter. Can't have them both run around and press like crazy and leave the middle vacated, having a positionally sound midfielder who shuts down that middle area is huge and a bit part of what we're missing to solidify our midfield/defence.
Isn't that just modern pressing football though? Fred makes a few cock ups but most are not going to be punished, that's the reality of the situation. Are we that sure that Rice is not going to lose the ball a few times a season, some of which will be punished and some that will not? Over a league season that's going to happen. Mistakes in general are going to happen, there's nothing in the numbers suggesting we need to spend colossal sums to rid ourselves of a few turnovers of possession every season. I agree Fred can piss around a bit but I don't think it's the most convincing reason to get Rice.
Fred and McTominay (and Pogba) all come up really poorly with "dispossessed" and "miscontrols". IMO, having your deepest player who is prone to a lot of give aways is just a really bad idea and leads to the dumb mistakes. Same with midfielders who get dribbled past loads. You need one of your midfielders who sits and doesn't feel the need to win the ball back always but will close down space always and be secure and reliable on the ball too. Rice comes up excellently with that, Fred and McTominay are very bad with that. Fred if anything needs a true DM next to him, Casemiro or Fernandinho (or Rice) so that security net is there. Fred in general isn't quite good enough on the ball to be that deep playmaker anyway, but he's not bad with it and our midfield would improve with a true DM there next to him.
I didn't post their stats to dismiss Rice's qualities, more so trying to point out that Fred against the ball isn't a much worse midfielder from a defensive point of view compared to Rice (yes, they are different types of players), which the post I was replying to was saying. What Rice has to offer, does have value, I agree, I just don't think it's what we need. We've discussed this before, but I think we need better on the ball than just secure. Maybe his passing will improve, most likely it will, but I would rather take a gamble on other players, who have shown more in that regard.
I don't disagree about Fred's carelessness with the ball, but it's still a bit much to say that Rice is a much better defensive midfielder at this moment in time. I wouldn't be surprised, if he turns out to be the better DM compared to Fred, but not currently. You also said that Rice would win the ball back more effectively, when the stats quite clearly show that Fred does that well.
I think that has mostly to do with teams defending more as a collective than in previous decades. Especially with pressing high up the pitch, their job has become more difficult. I agree about Lindelof and Torres though.
Agree with this. I still think he's valuable to have, it's just a matter of coaching to get him to improve in that regard.
It does show up in stats as well btw. See Passes intercepted, Passes blocked, Miscontrols, Disposessed (all per 90) and all he does quite poorly on.
You can handwave things a bit and say he attempts progressive passes so he can be expected to give it away but miscontrols and disposessions are more damning.
Unfortunately people zoom in on that one time every game he does something stupid and forget all of the good things he does.
I think Fred is a very good central midfielder - but he gives me a heart-attack every time he receives the ball with his face to goal - less than 30 yards out. That is not my definition of a good defensive midfielder. So in that respect, I think Rice is better.
I think we need both tbh. Fred can't be the most defensive guy because of his style and his weaknesses, you need someone more to close down spaces and hold it together next to him, and Fred himself isn't good enough on the ball to lock down that other midfield position IMO. Like if we were to sign Camavinga, we'd still need a sitter as Camavinga's potential for me is a Fred style midfielder, just a lot better. A Jorginho next to them would be great as I think he offers a lot of good positional control in there, but there's very few of them around. Rice is another way to go with it while of course not getting the same playmaking, but making up for it with the players around him.
Do you think Rice would have changed anything about the result against Villarreal for example? Do you think what you are describing there, is what we were lacking last season, when we drew 11 games, 8 out of those goalless?
My problem there is, who is that player? I know who I would want to pair with Camavinga or Fred, but who do you pair with Rice? Edit: And available I should say. I agree with the rest.
No
It was like watching the same game situation with different players.
Like a bad remake of a bad movie
Yes. As Pogba would have then played on the left instead of a half-fit and out of form Marcus.
Can't say I agree. There wasn't enough tempo in our passing and we weren't stretching them nearly enough. Without Maguire, and with Rice and McTominay in midfield, the issues likely would have been the same.
I think a Camavinga-Rice pairing behind Rashford, Bruno and Sancho and a striker would be brilliant tbh. For Rashford and Sancho on the wings, we probably need the extra security anyway. That'll be hard as feck to break down with a world class front 4 and Camavinga providing the link, and fullbacks knowing they can go forward too as we'd potentially have a trio of Varane, Maguire and Rice sweeping up in front of them. Defence wins you titles, gives you consistency, and no better way to do that then solidifying the middle of the pitch when the rest of our attack is so attacking.
Cavani
Rashford Bruno Sancho
Camavinga Rice
Shaw Maguire Varane Wan Bissaka
Henderson
Rashford Bruno Sancho
Camavinga Rice
Shaw Maguire Varane Wan Bissaka
Henderson
Imo it can easily be a title winning side. Garner developing as well who can be a deeper midfielder with the passing range too is perfect.
I can't say I can agree with that. I've discussed this in another thread and here, but we would lack a metronome-like player with that midfield 2 in my eyes. Asking either Camavinga or Rice to be that player is too soon. People are right to point out that it is probably not fair on Rice to be compared with Verratti or Jorginho, since they are in their primes, while he is stil pretty much at the start of his career, but for what West Ham are asking, we should be getting a young Verratti or de Jong for example.
It boggles my mind that Rice would cost MORE than De Jong. The difference in skill, technical ability, passing, shooting is huge.
Declan Rice’s skill set is very very narrow. He’s very good at those skills, but doesn’t offer much beyond that. The way Chiesa laid waste to Rice was eye-opening and shows the difference between a mid table stalwart and a liability in the CL. Rice is very good at passing back to CB’s and his midfield partner, but that’s about it. He’s physical, smart, and very conservative. But he’s Mark Noble 2.0. The only reason he’s getting hyped is because he’s young and English. There are loads of players in other leagues that offer the same thing as Rice for much less in transfer fees.
I’d rather we spent money on a Locatelli, Kessie, Renato Sanches at 30-40m than spend 80m on Rice.
The overhyping of Declan Rice by some -- not here, but in the British media -- is beyond belief. He's reliable up to a point, but it's clear as day that Rice and Phillips were England's weakest link in the Euros. There's nothing really wrong with him, but nothing that exceptional either. Chiesa had Rice for lunch.
I disagree with this. He maybe overhyped - but him and Phillips partnership was one of the main reasons England went up to the final with not a single free player goal against us.
The problem was a mix of Southgate being unnecessarily defensive whilst his CAM choice being constantly non creative - especially Mason Mount who was more another defensive player than an attacking one with no attacking ability.
He's nothing like them though. We need a Fernandinho type to balance out our attack. We need to replace both in the double pivot, but one of them definitely needs to be a Fernandinho, Casemiro, Fabinho or whoever. An actual DM, and the other can be a deeper playmaker which would be Camavinga long term but short term Fred. But in our squad we only have Matic who is a DM, the others are all box to box types or Garner has potential to be the deeper playmaker. But none are the guys who can hold it all together, which we haven't had since Carrick. Rice can be that guy that allows us to have an all action midfielder who progresses the play for us while being a good presser. Camavinga and Fred are both that, just Camavinga has way more potential of course.
In terms of the cost, don't give a feck just like I didn't care for Maguires price. Think he's a player that will solidify us really well and make it hard for teams to counter attack on us and help us a lot control the spaces in bigger games, helping us sustain pressure.
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That's kind of the problem and why I don't think he's worth it. The issue for me is that his passing is not as good as those players you've mentioned. Fred isn't a deeper playmaker either, nor should that be his role for us.
I always worry that we’re linked with him when this thread is bumped.
There's absolutely no chance we sign Rice this window, imo. West ham are going to want stupid money and we've already spent 75m on Sancho with Varane possibly following. If we do sign a CDM it'll be someone like Bissouma or Camavinga in the 30-40m range.
Nah, the back line and -- and trust me, I hate to admit this -- Pickford were outstanding all tournament. Pickford, check. Stone and Maguire, check. Shaw, absolutely check. And Walker, check. These five were almost colossal in defending the England goal. Opponents got into England's final third but everywhere they turned Shaw and Walker were unskinnable and Stones and Maguire imperious.
Rice and Phillips were the midfield pairing that proved that Southgate was unnecessarily defensive. They did not embarrass themselves, but the point is that neither offered anything offensively and never, except for Ukraine, "controlled" midfield. And in the end England hardly bothered Donnarumma, which is not Rice's fault as he did his job (before being subbed off for Henderson), but as important as his job was it was pretty limited. No complaints with Rice, but really not much in the way of high impact with or without the ball.
Rice is in no way the missing key to United. Decent footballer though and I had no objection to him starting for England.
Agree completely on Mount. Although Mount made sense from the beginning, for whatever reason he was toothless in the final third. Strange, as I really like how he performs for Chelsea.
The addition of Rice I think would seriously strengthen our chances of pushing for title.
United can afford to buy him this window even with Sancho & Varane Coming in.
I would still like to see us go for Haaland personally, but that deal is all sorts of complicated.
We are heading in the right direction it feels, but we gotta keep going and not wait and lose out.
The title is there to be won next season.
United can afford to buy him this window even with Sancho & Varane Coming in.
I would still like to see us go for Haaland personally, but that deal is all sorts of complicated.
We are heading in the right direction it feels, but we gotta keep going and not wait and lose out.
The title is there to be won next season.
I think this is definitely the right take. He’s a good player who no one would complain about having, but he’s not a generational talent, he doesn’t automatically fix a massive hole in the team, and he certainly doesn’t come cheaply. I’d rather wait until the market allows for better options than get locked into a player with a narrow skillset for the current price being demanded. You never know what will change in a year, such as players like Varane and Camavinga possibly being available
Can’t believe Rice look so shite when compared with Fred.
I just don’t agree. They got totally boss by Italian midfield in final and was clearly our weakest link in most games.
Yes and no. They did really well for the first 45 minutes, but lost control completely in the 2nd half
Whatever. We only have 29% possession in the game, our midfield has been complete disaster. I don’t remember seeing a worst one in final of any major tournament.
Im not sure why Southgates tactics of being defensive vs Italy is the fault of Rice and Phillips.
Italy struggled to score a goal in open play with these two and the rest of the English defense in a defensive set up. Just like Germany and Croatia and Scotland.
Im not sure why Rice is blamed for the lack of creativity for England when Mount did crap all as our CAM, Sterling as a winger in the match was running in to people. Even Phillips who is supposed to be the Yorkshire polo was running around trying to maintain the defensive ability of the team rather than pinging the ball around the place like we know he can do in the PL.
I mean if you personally think that Italy played possession football because they bossed our midfield that’s fine - I just clearly saw the tactics where we played defensive and wanted to do so. I mean Kane was behind the midfield line in the second half. The Italian defense had the ball in the back line as they passed it on to the midfield that was more in line with our strikers than our Centre midfielders.
The reason I’m still interested in Rice is simply because Pogba is better than Phillips and Bruno is better than Mount - however I can see why people are unsure of him.
Imo we need someone who is more mobile but good in defending and can still play progressive play to play next to McTominay. While we need someone who more like Casemiro type of DM who is good in positioning, mobile, and can still play progressive play to play next to Fred. Rice doesn’t tick the list for DM that we need right now to pair with our current midfield.
I just don’t think they are good enough for strong team, due to lack of quality. I believe midfielders should be the most all round players in the field, should be able to do abit of everything - defending, attacking, and pass the ball around, linking up defence to attack. From what I’ve seen, they are only good at defending but poor at everything else. They offer the team nothing more than McFred did for us. If we are to spend money on midfielders, we should look for similar quality to Italian midfielders, who has 71% possession over us.
I'ma ask y'all this Question!!
What's the point of Buying a supposed Midfielder that's good at chasing down opposition players but can't retain possession or keep the ball for his team when under any pressure?
I watched Verratti through out the Euro 2020 tournament but couldn't help but think he's the type of Controlling Midfielder we need, who's also good at Tackling and pressing too, Rice ain't the type of Midfielder that would suit us, we need a ball playing Midfielder with a bit of enegry to his game, we don't need another headless chicken type midfielder i can't stress it further.
What's the point of Buying a supposed Midfielder that's good at chasing down opposition players but can't retain possession or keep the ball for his team when under any pressure?
I watched Verratti through out the Euro 2020 tournament but couldn't help but think he's the type of Controlling Midfielder we need, who's also good at Tackling and pressing too, Rice ain't the type of Midfielder that would suit us, we need a ball playing Midfielder with a bit of enegry to his game, we don't need another headless chicken type midfielder i can't stress it further.
Agreed. Maybe next summer but definitely not this summer. £60m-£80mil price is alot in a covid environment when we have spend £73mil on sancho.
I like fr(i)ed rice.
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