I wouldn't buy Rice as I feel that we can get similar talent at a lower price from other or lower league. With Covid, surely there is a midfielder who cost 20-30 mil that plays as well as Rice. Sell Lingard to buy another midfielder.
Declan Rice
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The issue is we don't play with a pure defensive midfielder.
Are you really saying he's worth 70m and that much better than Mctominay to bench a home grown talent? I just don't see it with him.
Being very basic on the ball and making a few interceptions here and there isn't enough, we saw that with Schneiderlin who looked even better than Rice.
If Pogba does go, Rice alongside a player like Jorginho who can spray the passes around and control the game from deep would be a pretty tasty prospect.
I just don’t think that Rice alone is the answer to our midfield, but with the right partner to balance out his weaker areas he could definitely be half of the answer.
I just don’t think that Rice alone is the answer to our midfield, but with the right partner to balance out his weaker areas he could definitely be half of the answer.
Nah that's not the case. I appreciated Carrick plenty but I'm not 100% on Rice.
It's not about posters lacking insight, there are legit questions about how good on the ball he is. He could prove those doubters wrong but right now it's a fair enough question.
When United have been at their best, winning stuff, we've never had first choice CM as limited on the ball as he is. It would be a big departure from the norm.
The closest comparable would be when we played Ronny Johnsen in CM. It didn't happen often but was an effective way of shutting an opposition player or tactic down when necessary.
He costs too much. I see what he brings but I dont care. Do people that want him actually want us to spend 70m on him when we can hypothetically get 2 midfielders (eg Locatelli and Bissouma) for that price
People actually think he's worth 50m+Lingard! Lingard would stack some crazy stats if he played for a side like Dortmund, trust me. We should steer clear imo he's not worth anywhere the amount we'd need to fork out to get him. His lack of vision, limited passing range and subpar technical ability is too much to ignore if we aspire to be a progressive side.
I agree he is what we need.
But you will still get people making weak arguments against because they don’t think he is complete enough.
He is not really similar to anyone we have and would change the way we play.
At the moment, tactical freedom is given to players who don’t have the intelligence to operate that way. Effectively saying to McFred that they should get stuck in, join the attack, don’t leave us exposed, get in the box, close down space, press, keep the shape, is bound to lead to chaos at times. They usually look to me like they are given no tactical instructions, purposely, in the knowledge that filling their heads with that stuff will be counterproductive.
Rice is the opposite. He is tactically clever.
Agree, the bolded sums up my overall feeling.
Such an asinine question.
It isn't about who is paying. It's about how well the club spends its finite resources.
The issue for me is just his price, I'd have him here in a heartbeat. I don't think he solves all our problems in midfield but adding him and Varane would ensure a really strong defence and defensive cover. Last season I felt whenever we were under pressure in a game, we'd cave in eventually and concede a silly goal. Rice is excellent at spotting and averting dangerous situations. He'd be like a Maguire signing in midfield.
He would be nothing like Maguire? Maguire is a complete CB.
When I watch England I see the same problems as Utd have at their worst. Too slow moving the ball through the middle only to come alive when the ball goes wide. Meanwhile Fred is keeping Fabinho out of the Brazil side in the Copa and is having a wonderful tournament btw.
Someone speaking some sense, yes his price tag is very high but we can include Lingard, Matic or Pereira, perhaps even Tuanzebe on loan,
This is rather silly. We see what he does. We just don't think he's good enough overall. He can't lace Carrick's boots as a player on the ball and there's not much between them defensively. Rice better in some aspects and Carrick better in others but not a massive swing either way. He's just not good enough a footballer.
Erm I think it's you who is missing the point, that he's going to cost more than 50 million (more like 80 given WHs stance) and hence being better than average players can and will not be the criteria.
Is Rice like Keane?
Keane was not a DM although he could tackle all day, he wasn't an AM although he could shoot and head in the box and score a reasonable amount of goals. Keane was a 'proper' CM, and above all he was a leader with driving stubborn streak.
I doubt Rice is as good as Keane overall mainly because of that mentality, but if he is say 85% as good then he could be exactly what United need. The transfer numbers are bit higher than £3.75m but then the world of football went crazy a long time ago.
Keane was not a DM although he could tackle all day, he wasn't an AM although he could shoot and head in the box and score a reasonable amount of goals. Keane was a 'proper' CM, and above all he was a leader with driving stubborn streak.
I doubt Rice is as good as Keane overall mainly because of that mentality, but if he is say 85% as good then he could be exactly what United need. The transfer numbers are bit higher than £3.75m but then the world of football went crazy a long time ago.
THIS.
I like Declan Rice and think he is a good player with some great attributes but because of the fees and everything it seems like a silly deal. Would much prefer to get Bissouma and Locatelli in and with the sale of Lingard that could be net spend of about £50m which would be great business imo.
There wouldn't be a McFred in tandem but I suspect one of the two would be playing. So either McTominay or Fred would partner Rice. Pogba isn't a player who is suited to playing the deeper role when it comes to off the ball work, hence why he has been deployed in a different role by Ole, playing in a advanced role on the left.
If we need an extra player to compensate for Pogba that’s a problem in itself.
Where we're currently as a squad, we need someone to come in and partner Fred IMO. I can't see us signing two midfielders, so if it comes down to a, either or situation, then it's best we target a player who will provide craft and guile from midfield along with the ability to perform his defensive duties, rather than a combative type who isn't gonna elevate us when it comes playing through a well coordinated high press.
If you watch rice closely in the euros you can see he gets out of the press by quickly laying the ball off
Nice to see someone thinking along the same lines as me. I have seen quite a few people talk about how Rice would allow us to have more attackers on the pitch, but having more attackers does not always equal a better attack. Rice is a fantastic defender, but a very basic footballer. The team needs to attack as a unit, and also defend as a unit.
I have always thought that the deepest midfielder in an ideal team should be the one offering the most security and control on the ball. It is easy to look at Pogba and Fernandes - who are probably the best individuals in the squad - and think that Rice's instinct and quality in defence would allow us to get both on the pitch at the same time in a 4-3-3, but ball handling, balance and security in possession has always been a very underrated part of midfield play especially in a 433.
Fernandes especially has made his reputation based on his numbers which IMO really isn't what midfielders should be judged on. Pogba has always struggled to find that balance between attack, midfield and defence, and Rice the midfielder is a defender - a good one - nothing more.
A team needs midfielders who are comfortable deep in the progression phase, receiving the ball under pressure on the half turn and moving it around (especially forward) with little risk of giving it away. I personally think that quality for midfielders far outweighs any realistic amount of goals, assists and defensive actions. It provides a platform, and allows the team to maintain possession, dominate territory and create closer to the opposition's goal.
A combination of Rice, Pogba and Bruno will not provide that platform despite how balanced it looks on paper. Rice has always been very basic with his passing, so he is not a midfielder you would trust to consistently find the other two in advanced positions. That would force Pogba and Fernandes to play deeper to get on the ball, moving them away from their comfort zone and a system that theoretically was supposed to allow them to play higher up the pitch would have the opposite effect. Pogba and Fernandes are top footballers - they wouldn't be rated so highly rated if they were not, but feck knows, if it came to doing what a Toni Kroos or a Modric does, I'd swap both for Wijnaldum in a heartbeat.
Obviously we could make it work, but I have no confidence that we will, I haven't seen any evidence that it is what we are trying to do. We have always played a 4231 formation since Bruno Fernandes arrived, with two CMs, the idea being for them to take turns attacking and defending, pressing and retreating, driving with the ball and passing it on, moving around the pitch and holding their positions, getting in the box and staying deep - A classic double pivot, and I don't see that changing anytime soon. People tend to lump Fred and McTominay together which is understandable considering how much they play together, but it has really been Fred attacking, defending and progressing the ball, and McTominay doing the same thing - as he should, but to far less extent in all three.
If we are going to stick with the same system that we played the whole of last season, then I think we should back and sign players who fit into it, and try to avoid players who do not. I've been a fan of Rice since he broke out, but the reason I don't want him is I don't see how he fits in our system, he is not as dynamic as we would want him to be. Pogba is another one who isn't, and we have struggled to fit him in.
Fred on the other hand seems to be a perfect fit, a prototype of the midfielder we should be looking for. He has his weaknesses, but he is a natural for that role, and I've always said that we should be looking to find another midfielder of similar profile and better if we can find one. A midfielder who offers plenty on the ball while providing enough security in defence. Rice is not that midfielder.
Good post, completely agree. And you nailed it when you said 'we need to attack as a unit and defend as a unit'
That just ruined my sleep.
There is absolutely no doubt that he would provide real leadership in midfield and has excellent positional sense, however I still haven't seen enough of him being able to pass the ball well enough and that's why I would prefer to get someone more in the mould of a Saul/Camavinga.
Still a lot of people it seems have only seen him play for England doing simple stuff. Fair enough but that’s not the full picture.
Here you will see a cleaner tackler, give and go, running with the ball, heading, passing through the lines and an impressive long pass.
the guy would be brilliant for our midfield. He really is like a young Keane
ignore the crappy music
Here you will see a cleaner tackler, give and go, running with the ball, heading, passing through the lines and an impressive long pass.
the guy would be brilliant for our midfield. He really is like a young Keane
ignore the crappy music
I think it can be better spent than £90m odd for rice. Assuming we don’t have unlimited transfer funds it’s in my interest that we use it in a prudent way.
Yeah something like Camavinga/Saul and a cheaper sitting DM so could rebuild that area
Claiming he is young Keane is way too off. He never impress as much as you claim in a 90 mins match, posting a YouTube footage to prove anything would make Mctominay looks good too mind. More like a new Schneiderlin for me though, which isn’t bad at that time as he was also supposed to be our dream signing.
You have never watched Keane I guess. Probably one of the craziest talks I've heard here. Rice doesn't deserve to lace Carrick's boots let alone Keane.
This guy was a CB in his young years then later moved up to the midfield. He plays basically like a defender playing in the midfield. He's good with that but offer nothing offensively. I'd like him here but £60m max. That includes English tax. He would be a very good centre back that will help us to have more depth.
McRice combination would be a disaster in midfield passing, as they are both very limited/poor passer of ball. It’s only good when defending against strong team, when we are looking for a draw.
Wait till West Ham get relegated, wont be long probably next season...
Rice like a young Roy Keane who suddenly lost all his ability on the ball and became a limited DM.
I watch the England training videos at the Euros and Rice is a great character in all of them. I think Ole will love his positive and infectious personality at the club, but unfortunately 80-100M is too much for him. No one is going to pay that for him especially for a defensive midfielder
The best would be to pair Fred with Rice, not only their names match with each other (Fred Rice, YUM!) their game styles match with each other too. Rice is someone to sit deep, to act as an anchor while Fred would be the workhouse, the player to attack oppo players high up the pitch, I'd suggest you to watch Copa America where Fred has been playing superbly alongside Casemiro for Brazil. Thats how i imagine Fred Rice Partnership for United.
And wasn't young Keane more of an attacking midfielder?
He scored 33 goals for Nottingham at the same age as Rice who only scored 5 goals so far in his career.
Still the price demanded is too high for this to happen. I feel we will stick with what we have this time and go in for him again next summer when his contract situation is more in our favor. Anyhow hearing that he has refused to sign a contract extension.
Unless ofcourse he creates a major stink and we can find a way to convince west ham to knock off 20 million off his price for lingard.
Unless ofcourse he creates a major stink and we can find a way to convince west ham to knock off 20 million off his price for lingard.
I don't see a similar player to McT there at all. His positioning and defensive capabilities are far superior. He's a pure DM and McT is a B2B midfielder.
I'm not his biggest fan but I think he'd improve us a fair bit as he'd provide better balance to our midfield.
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With Athletico landing Rodrigo De Paul, Saul is being made available around 35m pounds which is a far better deal along with Camavinga for 25m (if the reports are right). That would be 2 quality players for slightly more than 50m pounds taking add ons into consideration.
Bruno
Saul Camavinga
assuming Pogba signs for PSG or Real.
Bruno
Saul Camavinga
assuming Pogba signs for PSG or Real.
I fear Rice will be too expensive, but if we were to sign him - we will have the core of a team that could dominate English football for the better part of 10 years - Rice, Greenwood, Sancho, Rashford, AWB, Shaw, McTominay
Yeah passing-wise it’s not great. I like McT carrying the ball and getting into the box. Fred wouldn’t be much / any better passing-wise really.
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