Surely covid should have taught you that as fans you’re a huge reason why clubs have money
Declan Rice
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not sure what your point is...
Point being if a fan wants to scrutinise hows its spent they have every right to since they contribute to that money
Being Irish I hope United never go near him. He's obviously a decent player but the prices being bandied about are insane.
50m plus Lingard and we'd be getting a wonderful deal. He's only 22 for heavens sake, so much potential.
we know he can sit in front of a back 4 and mop up loose balls, but we don’t know if he can take it to teams who sit back.
where’s his passing range, can he switch the ball, can he break the lines?
for £70m you’re expecting a lot - and I don’t think he has a lot to his game.
If we can get him for £40m and swap with lingard then I think fair enough, but he’s genuinely not better than Fred and very similar to Mctominay.
people saying he’d walk into our midfield and be a sensational upgrade are going to be disappointed.
Squad player at best.
where’s his passing range, can he switch the ball, can he break the lines?
for £70m you’re expecting a lot - and I don’t think he has a lot to his game.
If we can get him for £40m and swap with lingard then I think fair enough, but he’s genuinely not better than Fred and very similar to Mctominay.
people saying he’d walk into our midfield and be a sensational upgrade are going to be disappointed.
Squad player at best.
“Squad player at best”
do you watch the PL? I’m beginning to think you don’t
do you watch the PL? I’m beginning to think you don’t
I think his detractors would be surprised once he moves to a big club and start doing all the things you expect DM of a top team to do as he has that in his locker and would only continue to improve.
He sat in front of the defence which was England's 2 CBs and RB who stayed behind while the rest of the squad pushed up. I think this is exactly how we should set up if we want to effectively play Pogba Bruno And the front three
On the contrary I thought he would suit playing in mid-table club more than big club. Not saying he wouldn't cement his place in top club, but he is too limited as a player to shine in top club, which usually requires more all rounded type of midfielder. He is basically a CB playing in midfield, solid defensively but limited in everything else.
he’s playing for a good team already who were challenging for CL places, not a relegation side.
he plays very safe in all his matches. What he does he does well, but is he really better than what we have already? I don’t think so.
as I said, squad player who might force himself into the team, but I don’t see him as a player we’re crying out for.
If he was available cheap or a reasonable price it would be fine but anything north of £60m is just not realistic.
In summary, you don’t rate him very much.
What I would say is that playing against a low block team does not negate the need for defensive quality. When teams really sit back and get everyone behind the ball, even the Man City of last season will struggle. A player like Rice can help in not losing those games 0-1 or in closing out a tight 1-0 in our favour. No matter who we play, we still have to have a smart tactical player with good leadership skills in CM.
as i’ve said, he’s great around the box and mopping up loose balls but then our current MF is also good at that.
defensively we don’t really have issues with that, when we get a lead we usually hold it fine - it’s the matches where we have to over extend that we get caught out.
people seem to think he’s at a Kante level but IMO he’s not better than Fred or Mctominay. He’s better in some areas, worse in others.
What my issue is we’re going to be spending huge money on a player that actually isn’t that special. When he was injured for WHU their results weren’t badly effected. They’d just replace him with a foreign lad for 1/3 of the price and do the same job.
statistically he’s no better, on the eye he’s no better. It seems only the shiny new toy effect.
I am not advocating we buy him for outrageous fee 30-40m plus Lingard should be our limit or 50-60 m outright but not beyond that and while judging him you also need to take into account what his current manager wants from him as well
He is pretty sound defensively and has ability to switch play and can definitely carry the ball, he basically has all the raw ingredients to become brilliant DM for Top club just needs a manager to develop these attributes further .
I think the best example of him is from the people who don’t rate him call him the water carrier. Is being the water carrier of a team a huge negative as it sounds? Or does he actually give England a helpful hand by being the water carrier?
This is what I see he does-
1) He gives a shape to this England team. It’s very obvious who is allowed to go forward, press or be creative by the position of Rice (as we see when kalvin phillips is free to almost reach CAM positions to play a through ball). At the same time it’s very clear with him in a CDM partnership with Phillips that the England forward line isn’t needed to be tracking back all the time - that the defensive job is kept away from the attackers. The fullbacks gets forward and you can see Rice taking up their positions etc.
Why do I value this as a United fan? Because I believe that players like Sancho, Rashford, Greenwood, Pogba, Cavani, Van De Beek can all play freely concentrating on a pure attacking mindset with the freedom to get forward and not needing to drop back all the time the opposition are starting to attack us. It gives us a shape - an attacking one and a defensive one depending on what and where Rice is.
2) His reading of the game and adaptation to central positions. I used to think that Rice did crap all when playing for England but I slowly started to realize that he blocks the central attacking play to be a more complicated places to the opposition. He senses the next step of the opposition attack before it is done and he is already there- this doesn’t always lead to interceptions and tackles; but what you see most of the time is the opposition having to change the pass to somewhere else.
3) what happens when the ball does get played through the middle? Rice is making runs back and aims to intercepts or makes a tactical fouls as we saw In the game vs Germany where Kroos plays a pass that bypasses everyone - yet it is still Rice who got their in time to make a Fernandinho style tactical tackle; a vital step in a 2-0 win.
4) Interception during key times - He senses danger and makes interception and blocks in around the box. Yesterday Ukraine made a pass that bypasses Walker which Rice senses and runs to the area where a cut back pass was coming to the LW. He was there before anyone else and the relatively easy back pass to the winger was made complicated and inaccurate/rushed by Rice being in the right place at the right time. Then there the constant blocks and intercepts you see him do in our own box.
4) Him controlling his back line - he controls the players around him. He is telling where the pass should go, where the runs should go, if it’s the right time to do the action that’s required etc. a pure captain material.
Rice is called a water carrier because he plays a simple game - yet he also simplifies the game for a lot of his teammates and this is seen a lot when he isn’t in that team or is subbed out. Do we look like 10 men on the park is playing when he is on the pitch - or do we reap the benefits of his positioning and organization?
I don’t think he is worth the prices being quoted - but I am still interested in him as a player. This is partly because I think there is obviously different types of CDM & I personally think people underestimate how hard it can be to find a player that does what Rice does.
I mean can you imagine an opposition having to take on this line before they reach our CBs & GK?
Shaw - Rice - AWB
CB- CB
CB- CB
Maybe I’m hallucinating but getting past Shaw, Rice and AWB is not some joke. Then there is the rest of the team with a freedom to concentrate on attack whenever Rice water carries deep with the the ball playing CB’s.
Rashford-Greenwood-Sancho
Shaw- Pogba- Bruno- AWB
Rice
Maguire - CB
We got so many creative players - having a player that carries the water and let us play our own game shouldn’t be looked down upon.
Shaw- Pogba- Bruno- AWB
Rice
Maguire - CB
We got so many creative players - having a player that carries the water and let us play our own game shouldn’t be looked down upon.
100 percent. He could free up the other players and could be key to a functioning and balanced team
We lost quite a few points against so-called weaker, more defensive teams because we conceded goals. More generally than that, we often completely lost control of the midfield especially late on in matches. What we lacked in those instances was discipline, composure and leadership in CM.
If you look at what happened to England yesterday after Rice went off you see a team which still pressurised high up the pitch, still out-passed Ukraine, but was being overrun whenever Ukraine came forward. England were lucky not to concede in the last ten minutes even though Ukraine were dead and buried.
I don’t agree with any of your arguments but if you don’t rate him, that’s just a perfectly reasonable difference of opinion. If you think Fred and McT are just as good as he is defensively, then it’s pretty clear you just don’t rate him; the rest is a sideshow.
What he does in his role for England is already comfortably better than McFred attempting to do the same thing. He'd be a clear upgrade in allowing our more attacking players to focus on you know actually attacking.
Amen, Bebe, Amen.
well this is complete rubbish, england played better when he went off. we had way more possession and only conceded 1 chance.
We don’t have to agree, you like him I don’t. I hope we don’t sign him.
Saying we played "way better" when the game was dead against a side who were beaten 
Agreed. Probably too much money for a player that just does that, but we've been happy to pay big money for players we can trust to stay a long time (young + British). Would be nice to give the creative players that kind of security that Fred and McTominay will never provide. I find his individual contributions frustratingly conservative but it is useful for the team.
You scored 3 times when he was on yet played better when he went off. Your logic is a bit off
Yes, I think we are watching different sports.
This. I haven't been a fan until yesterday. It was a little passage of play where he played a lovely pass through the lines and shortly after a one touch pass off his left and it was so Carrick-like.
He'd be with us for the rest of his career most likely, it's the sort of spend that in the end would look a bargain I think.
The people who don't see what he's doing most likely took forever to appreciate what Carrick brought to our side. It's just not obvious enough for them.
The people who don't see what he's doing most likely took forever to appreciate what Carrick brought to our side. It's just not obvious enough for them.
Are there even any links with us pursuing him?
Theoretically if we lose Pogba and sign Rice, who’s going to be the creator in midfield?
I assume it would be Rice and Fred behind Bruno?
Not feeling it.
Theoretically if we lose Pogba and sign Rice, who’s going to be the creator in midfield?
I assume it would be Rice and Fred behind Bruno?
Not feeling it.
Now you’re starting to see his potential. He is carrying out a simple role for England where we don’t see these things. People are silly to judge him in the euros because he’s half the player but still sticking to his role impressively which makes me think he’s a pleasure to coach in terms of taking direction.
He’d be an awesome signing and he’s young enough to grow into the role too. I think he’s the type of player who isn’t necessarily a stat lover’s darling therefore is underrated but he’ll bring a calmness and assurance for our more attacking players
Only a matter of time though before Garner or Hannibal are chucked in. Perhaps even next season depending on preseason.
not the finished thing but people forget what midfield Liverpool had when they won the league. It doesn’t have to be peak Barcelona style
I oddly feel like Fred would improve with a Rice next to him, maybe I've lost my mind, me speaking even remotely positive about Fred probably means I'm slightly unwell, but I stand by it. You've also got to factor in the massive lift in creativity with Sancho coming in. Just look at that little taster we got in the game last night.
Hannibal or VDB next to Rice has potential to work well too.
That's a good point, it's always assumed our problem against smaller teams is creating chances but for a start I just don't think that's particularly true and will become less so with Sancho but more importantly it is that we are always vulnerable when we are trying to break them down.
We dominated the ball so often, creating half chances at the start of games, only to then go a goal behind against the run of play. Then struggle to take control again until the second half, being all over the place really. We then spend the rest of the game trying to break down a team with the sole intention of counter attacking. Just for us to get a draw. As much as I don't want Rice because of the price, that probably doesn't happen with him in the team.
How good is he on defensive set pieces? That would be a big plus if he's strong in that sense with headers and clearances.
That is why City dominates for 90 minutes. The moment they look vulnerable, the CDM will break up the play in whatever way possible, even with those little challenges we all hate to see.
Yes, I understand that perspective, and really I agree; if we lose Pogba he has to be replaced with a creative player.
But I think Rice and McT (rather than Fred) has potential as a pair, for some games. In that case we’ll be asking Bruno to get on the ball in slightly deeper areas with McT running past him and getting into the box sometimes. If there’s no Pogba, it’s possible Sancho might change the dynamic and balance for the good but we don’t know quite how he’s going to fit in.
Overall, Rice in and Pogba out is not ideal at all. Rice should be in addition to Pogba.
Fred is having a fantastic tournament with Brazil and actually benching a top midfielder in Fabinho.
Tbf I could see Rice and Fred working out together well. Rice alone isn't a magic solution to freeing our attacking player because you still need a good passing supply from the midfield.
Hes very good at what he does, but when Henderson came on you seen the difference in passing range almost immediately, and that's even compared to Philips in that game, except I know Philips can do it from the PL.
It's my one concern with rice, his passing range and ability!
It's my one concern with rice, his passing range and ability!
I am warming to him. Certainly has helped England's shape which has been a problem before.
They literally man up. If Bruno didn't drag Philips everywhere he wouldn't be doing the job the manager asked of him so you shouldn't read into that.
If we sign rice, there wouldn't be a mcfred.
It would rice pogba and Bruno. That's why you sign rice.
In the scenario your talking about Bruno isn't even on the pitch let alone pogba
People say all he can do is win back the ball and is positionally good but is that not exactly what we want a defensive midfielder to do? Why is there now a requirement that he is peak Pirlo or something? We have DvB, Pogba and Bruno for creativity in midfield and we also signed Sancho who is a creative player as well.
And Shaw.
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