I didn't think there was anything special about the tactics yesterday. I've not rewatched the game, but there's still so much more we could be producing. I liked how we were more compact in the middle. What I didn't like, however, was the lack of attacks. I'm not expecting amazing levels of fluidity, but I thought we could have shown more ambition? When there was an opportunity to counter-attack, instead of building smoothly, we decided to hoof the ball up. I seem to also remember all our players being back during corners, so we never had an outlet to pass to... Meaning the ball remained in our half.
David Moyes - The Tactician
- Thread starter amolbhatia50k
- Start date
I harbour no doubts about Moyes's ability to make a team hard to break down - whenever he's allowed to just concentrate on that, he's done fine. Everton were never easy to beat. We'll not be easy to beat for the likes of Arsenal if that's our ambitions, like the way we went into the match yesterday. Those tactics were designed to be compact defensively and perhaps sneak a goal, which we nearly did.
The problems arise when we're meant to boss a match and break down teams. That's why we've not really put together a good run at Old Trafford. Whenever we're meant to go and boss a match, we're reduced to crossing it from poor positions - of course, every other manager in the league knows about this and so will set their team out to counter the crossing tactic, which is why Fulham rolled up as they did.
It also means that teams know that if they defend well against our one-dimensional tactics, they can hit us on the counter when the moment is right. We've been undone by a number of teams we should beat this way.
Conversely, we're doing just fine away from home for the most part. Against teams that are expected to attack us more, we can play a more reactive sort of football and we've got the talent to punish teams when afforded space.
Moyes's biggest problem tactically is his complete lack of imagination in putting together an attacking side. His sides play percentage football, which means poorer teams in terms of individual talent can nullify the threat of our best attackers with some ease.
It affects every match we go into, detracts from our players confidence while at the same team giving other teams hope that they can stop us. It's a vicious circle.
The problems arise when we're meant to boss a match and break down teams. That's why we've not really put together a good run at Old Trafford. Whenever we're meant to go and boss a match, we're reduced to crossing it from poor positions - of course, every other manager in the league knows about this and so will set their team out to counter the crossing tactic, which is why Fulham rolled up as they did.
It also means that teams know that if they defend well against our one-dimensional tactics, they can hit us on the counter when the moment is right. We've been undone by a number of teams we should beat this way.
Conversely, we're doing just fine away from home for the most part. Against teams that are expected to attack us more, we can play a more reactive sort of football and we've got the talent to punish teams when afforded space.
Moyes's biggest problem tactically is his complete lack of imagination in putting together an attacking side. His sides play percentage football, which means poorer teams in terms of individual talent can nullify the threat of our best attackers with some ease.
It affects every match we go into, detracts from our players confidence while at the same team giving other teams hope that they can stop us. It's a vicious circle.
We defended compact and cohesively - bar Evra who's positional play I thought was poor and wasn't aligned with the rest of the back four often enough. But yeah your right, we lacked composure at times when we regained the ball from deep and a prime example of that was when Young had plenty of time to control a dropping ball and look for a passing option, but instead opted to simply put his boot through it.
I'd say there was positives to take and you can't really complain about our defending, but it's nothing revolutionary really. We've pretty much always set up to negate Arsenal's passing game, disrupt their rhythm and track runners diligently. Wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if our defending - from a midfield and defence perspective - is a horror show against Palace.
Well perhaps he should have left them and let them play their attacking football all the way to the Championship 
. Some fans simply have short memories and do not appreciate when a manager has done good work for their club.
. Some fans simply have short memories and do not appreciate when a manager has done good work for their club.With regard to yesterday's performance, I thought we did well. What we really showed which we haven't in previous games was our organisation and structure when we lost the ball with Rooney dropping back to make 5 in midfield. If RVP had taken that first chance we would have had a great start, the 2nd was a difficult one. I thought it was a typical away performance and one we saw under SAF as well with us trying to hit them on the counter. Its a shame we haven't shown this type of organisation before which might have won us a few more points this season. People also were moaning about 'he didn't go for the game; and 'he didn't bring strikers on' but 2 of the changes were enforced, Rafa injury and Mata looking tired. He could have bought Chico on for Valencia but then had we lost, people would have moaned about that. I would liked to have seen Chico introduced but like someone said earlier Rooney and RVP nearly scored later on. There was definitly some improvement compared to previous games. 4th place still looks like a long shot though.
People criticise selection and I'm one of the people who think Kagawa should be getting more games but I can see why Moyes prefers to opt for a winger on the other flank. I'm thinking he see two players drifting in (Mata and Kagawa say) as risky and this would leave the flanks exposed so he sticks to the one player doing that. Its not something I agree with but there appears to be some logic behind it. People are also moaning about Mata playing out wide but if you've seen the games where he has played for us, he has been drifting in alot and that is typical of many other clubs who opt to play a creative player out wide to drift in. The other option is to move Rooney to the left but I don't he wants to play out there.
I think our main problem is obviously the midfield which I must admit with players like Luis Gustavo going for cheap, wonders why we didn't get someone in. Players like Valencia and Cleverley are great players to have in a squad and use against lesser teams for squad rotation and giving players a rest but they like that top skill and talent to influence games against the top teams. I think the dramatic overhaul of the squad banded about will be risky because a big overhaul will mean players needing to bed in and that might take time. I think improvements in the key positions, CM, CB and LB will certainly help us and combined with keeping some of our current squad players will improve us next season.
People criticise selection and I'm one of the people who think Kagawa should be getting more games but I can see why Moyes prefers to opt for a winger on the other flank. I'm thinking he see two players drifting in (Mata and Kagawa say) as risky and this would leave the flanks exposed so he sticks to the one player doing that. Its not something I agree with but there appears to be some logic behind it. People are also moaning about Mata playing out wide but if you've seen the games where he has played for us, he has been drifting in alot and that is typical of many other clubs who opt to play a creative player out wide to drift in. The other option is to move Rooney to the left but I don't he wants to play out there.
I think our main problem is obviously the midfield which I must admit with players like Luis Gustavo going for cheap, wonders why we didn't get someone in. Players like Valencia and Cleverley are great players to have in a squad and use against lesser teams for squad rotation and giving players a rest but they like that top skill and talent to influence games against the top teams. I think the dramatic overhaul of the squad banded about will be risky because a big overhaul will mean players needing to bed in and that might take time. I think improvements in the key positions, CM, CB and LB will certainly help us and combined with keeping some of our current squad players will improve us next season.
I'm sure they appreciated it. Doesn't mean you should just settle with that and never look to further improve. For the first 5-6 years, Moyes did a fantastic job to get them up the table and get them consistently between 5-7th position. After that though, to progress, they needed to change styles gradually to a more positive and attacking style, a more passing style because they peaked playing that type of football. He didn't though, and the last 5 years of his spell at Everton were basically just keeping them at the same level, never showing many signs of improvement but not declining either. That's why I think him leaving Everton was good for them, as they needed a change if they ever wanted to progress further.Well perhaps he should have left them and let them play their attacking football all the way to the Championship
Good post.
We played exactly the same against City and Chelsea, its typical of Moyes, he sets up the team not to lose but to go for 0-0 and maybe steal a 1-0 win. There was no improvement its just the way he plays against teams that are favorites to win. Just what he did with Everton. When we come up a against a team that does the same against us he will again have no idea how to attack. Thats what we watched yesterday, a team set up to defend and maybe score a goal from counter or set pieces, no attacking plan what so ever.
Whatever happened to the good ol' days of 4-3-3 in big games?
Indeed. And Moyes is fairly good at this. What he doesn't have is the ability, imagination or creativity to succeed at a club that is expected to win every game, but with style. As you say, the percentage football, sneaking a 1-0 win is the only way he knows. He can only coach in such a way. He has never had any interest, or more so, any real reason to change a style of play that worked for him at an inferior club. Now he's at United he's unstuck because teams don't play against United as if they're a percentage team. And sadly, percentage football will only see a team finish in the top half of the table, which is where we're at. He has to go.
Three inmidfield?
I think alot of our problems stem from him allegedly insisting both midfielders drop deeper. This has caused major problems in our attack and has made some of our players look bad.
I don't think Rooney is a bad #10 and he has proven he is capable of playing behind the striker when he did so behind Hernandez in our run to the Champions League final. The problem is when both midfielders play as deep as they have been, Rooney has to come deeper as well and it basically becomes a choice of either shift it out wide or hoof it up to Van Persie. At least putting it out wide keeps us possesion. When the #10 has to come so deep to recieve the ball he's not going to be the creator through the middle that everyone wants him to be and it doesn't matter if it's Rooney, Kagawa or Mata playing, if they have to deal with the same thing. The best #10 performance we've had this season was with Kagawa against Leverkusen, but the reason why it worked so well was because Giggs didn't sit back and Kagawa could actually link up with a midfielder in the opponents final third.
I don't think Rooney is a bad #10 and he has proven he is capable of playing behind the striker when he did so behind Hernandez in our run to the Champions League final. The problem is when both midfielders play as deep as they have been, Rooney has to come deeper as well and it basically becomes a choice of either shift it out wide or hoof it up to Van Persie. At least putting it out wide keeps us possesion. When the #10 has to come so deep to recieve the ball he's not going to be the creator through the middle that everyone wants him to be and it doesn't matter if it's Rooney, Kagawa or Mata playing, if they have to deal with the same thing. The best #10 performance we've had this season was with Kagawa against Leverkusen, but the reason why it worked so well was because Giggs didn't sit back and Kagawa could actually link up with a midfielder in the opponents final third.
His tactics against Arsenal were not indifferent to how Mourinho sets up his Chelsea team. The one glaring difference is they have explosive pace on the counter and the personnel to do it. It's something we lack with Mata, Rooney and RVP. I mean I know people go on about the magical tiki-taka team of 08 but in reality we were just blistering on the counter with Rooney, Ronaldo, Tevez, Giggs and co ripping teams apart with 1 touch passing from one end of the pitch to the other. That was Manchester United, not an Arsenal/Barca type team. If anything, we shared some traits with Dortmund.
I've never heard anyone actually say this though.
Three in midfield?
that picYup - I think this post is absolute gold. We really need to get better at controlling games, and as is probably obvious, it's not something Moyes is very experienced at.
That said, Moyes Everton team were more varied in attack than we have seen so far at United, so I believe there is improvement to come in this department.
The point about teams realising at OT they can sit back and hit us on the break is very true. I do feel like though, teams have scored with a frequency on the break that they can't maintain forever, very often teams score with every single attack.. I'm not sure why we've made so many mistakes defending vs breaking teams, it's pretty bizarre.
I agree. I thought Evra wasn't helped much by Mata, but that's the sort of trade off you have to make when you play Mata/Kagawa on the wings. You're going to concede space laterally. It happened in the first game against Arsenal (with Kagawa) - it was surprising not see Arsenal attack us down our left side more. The positives are definitely visible. That was almost a great defensive performance, one akin to the defensive displays we seen at Everton. It's what Moyes is renowned for IMO.
But I keep seeing people compare this performance to Fergie's away performances, which I disagree with. Fergie attacked Arsenal and used the space between the lines. Moyes decided on an even safer game plan. When our players had the ball centrally, instead of initiating a quick counter-attack, we would hoof the ball up. One thing about Fergie that is often underrated is how pragmatic he was. Certainly, in the last few seasons, we looked like a "modern team" (at times). We're just one dimensional now. Even when there's space in the middle, our players are completely oblivious to open space because they have been programmed to play a certain way.
I thought Moyes approach was pragmatic, with such an awful run of results and play it looked to me like he set out to get a solid cohesive performance for the away game at Arsenal. Having a safer game plan as you put it seems to be a pragmatic approach relative to whats happened in the last 4-5 games.
I thought it was pragmatic too, but I wasn't using Fergie to criticise Moyes. I was trying to allude to how playing in this one dimensional manner - not in relation to the Arsenal game - is anything but pragmatic. We tried it a few times in the first half of the season, but it didn't work. We tried it now with Mata in the side, and it's not working. Moyes needs to put trust in a group of players that have won multiple trophies, and try to modernise the system. Currently, every criticism of him before he even managed his first Manchester United game looks justifiable.
I really can't relate to half the comments on here, its as if people have seen phrases and are repeating them post-hoc to explain our results.
I see the same set-up we've had for a while, the same uncreative midfield we'd had without scholes, fullbacks still the driving force, focus on passing it the right wing, Rooney picking it up and going wide, and a midfield turn to shit when pressed.
Only differences I see is shite performances. Moyes should be blamed for a lot, mainly inaction in my opinion but all this analysis and repeating the favourable phrase 'percentage' football is nonsense.
Even if it was the case I don't think our midfield and defence have shown they can support a more attacking approach.
I see the same set-up we've had for a while, the same uncreative midfield we'd had without scholes, fullbacks still the driving force, focus on passing it the right wing, Rooney picking it up and going wide, and a midfield turn to shit when pressed.
Only differences I see is shite performances. Moyes should be blamed for a lot, mainly inaction in my opinion but all this analysis and repeating the favourable phrase 'percentage' football is nonsense.
Even if it was the case I don't think our midfield and defence have shown they can support a more attacking approach.
If Moyes had taken over Chelsea I think he'd have people making the same excuses for him about the quality of the squad as he dragged them into the state we're currently in.
Cole and Terry make up an 'aging defence', sound familiar? No other real outstanding centre backs at the club either.
Unglamorous and unspectacular central midfield options in Mikel, Ramires, Essien and Lampard. A set of strikers that even a midtable club wouldn't be thrilled with. Mourinho tried to reinforce these areas in the summer but failed to land his targets and yet still has them at the top of the table. Competent managers get somewhere near the best out of what they have.
Cole and Terry make up an 'aging defence', sound familiar? No other real outstanding centre backs at the club either.
Unglamorous and unspectacular central midfield options in Mikel, Ramires, Essien and Lampard. A set of strikers that even a midtable club wouldn't be thrilled with. Mourinho tried to reinforce these areas in the summer but failed to land his targets and yet still has them at the top of the table. Competent managers get somewhere near the best out of what they have.
I don't think that's true at all. One of the best things about our play last season was Carrick's foward passing through the middle. Now he's sitting deeper and passing unadventurously to the flanks. He isn't nearly as influential and a lot of it is to do with how he's being used (or underused) not the fact that he can't handle what he handled last season.
Of course not. He just pulled that out of his arse.
I've been harping on about Carrick being under-utilised this season for a while. For me it is one of the most disappointing things about this season. It's almost like he's been told to sit deep (almost as deep as a 3rd CB at times) supposedly 'protecting' the back 4, when the truth is he isn't the most robust, tough-tackling DM anyway so using him like that is a waste. He needs to be running the show in midfield like he did last season and he did it with a bit of swagger too. Yes a few of the players look lacking in a bit of confidence, but the difference in the way Carrick is playing/being used is more than a dip in form. I just feel it's criminally under rating his skills to have him sitting as deep as f*uck just doing the simple things. That passing through the centre started off so many of our attacks last season and often took a complete row of the oppositions midfielders out the game with one pass. The video above shows exactly what our midfield is missing this season.
This is the first time I recall him being critisced in his managerial career.
Let's see how he responses!...I'm very anti Moyes as the majority of you all know. Ever since his Everton days. But I'm very interested to see what he does now considering we can do absolutely nowt in the league
Let's see how he responses!...I'm very anti Moyes as the majority of you all know. Ever since his Everton days. But I'm very interested to see what he does now considering we can do absolutely nowt in the league
you (conveniently? ) left out Mata,Oscar and caftards favourite Hazard. Chelsea invested heavily in the squad during the last 3or so years so you can't really compare their situation with ours
Additionally, Chelsea midfield might not be glamorous or spectacular but they do bloody better than our midfield.
You make a good point, LR7, but I wonder if drilling down a bit further might help us think this through.
Our central defenders have been woeful this season. First, it was Rio. Then Vidic, then Evans. It's probably safe to assume Carrick felt compelled to sit back. That should have been Jones's job, but he's been a bit spastic and then he's always injured. Fellaini was shambolic, of course. MSo it was up to Carrick to help protect a choppy back line.
This takes us back to disastrous decision to buy Fellaini in the hope that he be converted to a defensive midfielder. His horrifying displays early in the season forced Carrick to cover for his mistakes, effectively pulling him out of attacking mode. And once we saw our wingers (except Januzaj) turn in poor performances natch after match, it all just started cratering in. Even our wins, apart from Leverkusen, were relatively tame displays of attacking football.
Each squad has their big players: we have Rooney and RVP. Point is that in general, their squad had just as many question marks around them in key areas as ours. The difference is, our squad finished as champions even, well ahead of them... so one might argue ours was a tad better even at the end of last season.
Certainly, before the solid and thorough goat feck several months into tumbleweed Moyes' tenure, it wasn't strange to see several powerful figures on here shooting others down who dared question the squad - they were convinced this is the third or fourth best squad in the world behind Bayern and co. And why not? They had the fact of us becoming champions at a canter to back them up.
These same people are now power defending plantwaterman Moyes by switching their arguments a teensy weensy bit. Suddenly it was only because of Ferguson that we won the league by a huge amount of points. Suddenly Moyes inheroted a squad full of midtable players at best... heh heh heh...
Moyes is a nothing manager.
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@Kevin the fact that we paid a record transfer fee for one of their reserves may imply otherwise (they have a better squad than us).
Crap post. But wait, you're in luck! I can read trollçais.
Yes Mata is a reserve level player, there were no special circumstances attached to the situation and he isn't regarded in all of world football as a world class player. You are trolling and have proven diddly squat.
It was a very unusual circumstance though, I mean it wasn't a case of mata being of less quality than their players that were starting but simply he didnt suit how Mou wanted to play.
Had fergie stayed last season who knows what would have happened with Rooney. Fergie showed towards the end of last season that he was ready to drop Rooney and go for other combinations and it could well have been that he looked to play kagawa and RVP.
Whether Rooney would have been sold or benched is another question but either way he could well have been a squad player for us this season, and if it weren't for his contract situation Chelsea may have offered a pl record for him as well.
Personally I wouldn't say Chelsea's squad is particularly stronger than ours. Certainly not at the start of the season. I think Moyes has just massively underachieved with what he's had.
the only area we re better is up front cause Torres flopped. We both have top class keepers, their defence is better mainly due to their fullbacks. Midfield wise they re much better.
I personally don't think their defenders are better, they have been playing better though. Likewise I would say in terms of looking at cm's (lampard, ramires, mikel, Matic vs Carrick, Clev, Fletch, Giggs and Fellaini) I don't think that there's us really particularly stronger than ours, especially at the start of the season pre matic. In general I'd say both need some work.
I would say the biggest difference in those areas though is how their managers have them playing. I don't think moyes has set up the midfield to neither be defensively strong nor gotten enough out of them defensively with how he has chosen to set up with Rooney/RVP as well as what he's gotten out of the players. I think their midifeld has more steel but when you look at how Clev played against Arsenal defensively, I think we've suffered through not trying to get him to play as tactical as he did then and has done in other big games.
For me the biggest difference is their front four and how they have used them compared to how we have used ours. Their set up gets the most out of the unit as a whole, ours fails to get the most of out of anyone because of conflicting ideas/players playing poorly. Injuries haven't helped either but for me taking the squads at the start of the season I would say that their 4 best attackers on paper; torres, oscar, hazard and willian/Mata against rvp, rooney, nani and kagawa/januzaj and there isn't much difference aside from as I said Chelsea setting up to get the most out of the 4 as a whole and us trying to seemingly please the big two, Rooney and RVP and as a result not getting the most out of either or the other attackers, as well as impacting the midfield.
Ultimately I think if you swapped managers at the start of the season than chelsea would not be above us in the league. I don't like having to talk down Moyes but whilst I think there are problems in the squad in terms of quality/players loosing form and we've had a number of injuries/lack of luck, I think he's not got enough out of the squad by some distance.
That's a fair point but that's only one change. Im a massive fan of Carrick and he played quite a few exceptional balls through the middle last season but it wasn't his main route of play. As we all know he can only do that anyway when he's had 3 month to get rid of Bad Carrick. As someone above mentioned, we've been through what a leaky defence does to our midfield before and its not pretty.
I'm not defending Moyes I'm just sick of post-hoc / catchphrase arguments being banded about as it kills off actual discussion.
I wanted Mourinho as he's strong in his decisions. He'd have replaced Evra giving our defence and midfield more confidencr . He'd have signed a strong dynamic midfielder to provide balance in our actual link up. Those two things are enough, our team isn't shit its just unbalanced and broke in parts.
How do you know this?
Because he's not a moron?
Moyes did try to replace Evra as evidenced by his pursuit of Baines and then Coentrao.