Playing with width and pace is effective if your wide men are Ronaldo and Giggs. Not so much with Young and Valencia. Whatever happened to the idea of playing to your strengths?
David Moyes - The Tactician
- Thread starter amolbhatia50k
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You also need to work on your strengths.. thus the barrage of 81 crosses.
If Moyes is allowed to do on the job training with United, I cant see why the players cant do that too during a game.
Moyes is a fecking innovative genius.
Two midfielders have said that they are required to play a holding role, which explains why there's no attack down the center or other support for Rooney/Mata/whoever is playing behind RVP. Given Fergie's rejection of holding midfielders (http://www.manutd.com/en/News-And-F...guson-will-not-sign-a-holding-midfielder.aspx), why does Moyes insist on playing two? Every midfielder United had under Fergie got involved going forward, but on Sunday, Carrick almost had to be invited to do more than pass wide. When he did, we had our first real goal-scoring chance and then later a goal.
If they aren't going to bother helping attack and only attempt to keep possession, is it any wonder that we've been inept going forward and one dimensional? They certainly haven't helped protect the back line.
If they aren't going to bother helping attack and only attempt to keep possession, is it any wonder that we've been inept going forward and one dimensional? They certainly haven't helped protect the back line.
I definitely agree it's a case of one manager knowing his limits - Fergie hired tactically astute number 2's like McClaren, Quieroz to handle tactics and training while he dealt with inspiration and other managerial headaches off field. In the last days we lacked a great #2 and it's when our play started looking a bit crap (as it has the past few years titles aside). On the other hand Moyes has not done this, but instead brought in in yes men (Round, Lumsden and rookie Phil) - when you see games the only person he talks to is Neville (or Giggs) who is suposed to be the least experienced chap.
to be honerst, i originally also thinkg moyes should be given time to rebuild but two things prove he is not good enough.
1) everton with the same squard (except lukaku) played better than us and
2) with the existing squard, we can only got a draw atnd lose so many games against the bottom half teams.
it shows he is not good enough. u can argue that his aging players let us down but we should have enough fire power to outscore those bottom clubs while being a good manager, he should be able to manage them to play better. and in fact, apart from evra and vidic, i dont think our squard would play so badly for the reason of age.
1) everton with the same squard (except lukaku) played better than us and
2) with the existing squard, we can only got a draw atnd lose so many games against the bottom half teams.
it shows he is not good enough. u can argue that his aging players let us down but we should have enough fire power to outscore those bottom clubs while being a good manager, he should be able to manage them to play better. and in fact, apart from evra and vidic, i dont think our squard would play so badly for the reason of age.
We've spent 65M for 2 CM
Newcastle, Everton, Liverpool, Even Chelsea didn't spend that much and they're all playing much better than us.
65M for 2 Players and we haven't seen any improvement on our already tumescent display.
He hasn't bought well, the thing he bought he didn't utilise them well.
(@LR7 )
I watched the game again... sigh... It's wrong to suggest that Fulham defended the same way for 90+ mins. It's also wrong to suggest that we were crossing the ball because there was no space in the middle. There was plenty of space... This is what Manchester United should aim to do more. Instead of the strikers waiting for the ball to be crossed in, they should move to the channels and open up space/create overloads. As can be seen in the first image, Van Persie moves to the left to support Evra and Young. In doing so, this opens space for Fletcher, who plays a first time pass to Van Persie (image two). Because Van Persie is in open half space, Riise doesn't know whether to track Van Persie, pressure Fletcher, or track Young (who creates a 2 v1). In the third image, Van Persie's touch is average and he should look for a cutback to Mata. I don't see any reason why we have gone from fluid football against Bayer Leverkusen and Swansea to this again!
Sorry that the images are big. I should have resized them.
Fulham are not the first club to have packed their penalty box against us. The failure to break them down is due entirely to the fact that we relied on a single tactic the entire game. The problem with that tactic, long crosses, is that you need players who offer a credible threat of beating the fullback 1v1 for a chance on goal. Young and Mata are simply not mazy, dribbling wingers who can do that. You also need wingers who can provide incredible power and accuracy on those crosses and Young and Mata can't do that either. You also need forwards who can score off crosses. RvP and Rooney can do that to some extent, but that's just not their game.
Beckham to van Nistelrooy was a thing of beauty. Young to van Persie is not.
Beckham to van Nistelrooy was a thing of beauty. Young to van Persie is not.
People who argued that we were crossing the ball repeatedly because there was no other option are seriously deluded and they're only saying it because for whatever reason they don't want to accept or criticise the tactical ineptitude shown vs Fulham. People are criticising the sideways passes on those pass maps (or whatever they're called) of our CMs when it's blatantly obvious that the tactic they're carrying out involves spreading the ball wide - therefore a sideways pass.
I remember a few of your posts in this thread earlier in the season such as Sunderland away, when you pointed out how Rooney needed to drop off behind RvP and occupy the space between the CMs and RvP but instead he was pushing high up top as well, making the same runs in behind as RvP was and as a result it was creating an open space in the attacking third that we weren't playing through until Januzaj in the second half ran into that space for his goals.
That seems to be exacerbated atm as the CMs simply seem to be simply supporting the play down the flanks and even when Mata/Rooney do drop into the hole they seem to firstly look to play the ball wide. When Mata/Rooney/Januzaj move out onto the flanks themselves they too hit the early cross rather than look to play one-twos or build play through the middle. I see no way that can be accidental and not how they're being told to play. Januzaj came on and lumped in 12 crosses in 30 minutes (admittedly 5 were accurate) but you can't tell me he wasn't sent on with the instruction to do that. It was intentional and it's undeniable that the quality of our football is regressing.
The Fulham game literally blew my mind.
I've been giving Moyes the benefit of the doubt, assuming that he was playing a crossing game simply because it suited the wingers we had in the squad. Mata and future transfers would surely bring about a change in style.
Now I'm starting to worry.
Surely he will change it....right?
I've been giving Moyes the benefit of the doubt, assuming that he was playing a crossing game simply because it suited the wingers we had in the squad. Mata and future transfers would surely bring about a change in style.
Now I'm starting to worry.
Surely he will change it....right?
If we are using the wings and crossing galore tactics then why haven't our players even improved on it ? I don't think there is a single player in the current who has gotten better at long passes and crosses since the start of the season.
Seeing as he thinks we were great on the night, created many chances and should have scored lots of goals, the answer is more likely to be No.
Moyes at United is like giving your Grandad an iPhone.
Great device, loads of potential... but all he can do is make calls. He's better off with a brick Nokia phone (Everton). He knows it well, it's simple (well he can't play Snake or change his ringtone, but still pretty good with it).
Great device, loads of potential... but all he can do is make calls. He's better off with a brick Nokia phone (Everton). He knows it well, it's simple (well he can't play Snake or change his ringtone, but still pretty good with it).
Because you can't - a ball in the air is affected by so many things e.g. wind, spin, other players lol. Crossing is always a low percentage game. To rely so heavily on it will always mean trouble. Also we don't have a tall striker to attack them.
No. He thinks that we have been playing fine season but have been unlucky. Eventually the luck with change and we will get better results.
Crossing the ball into the mixer would be a lot more fruitful if we had midfielders making runs into the box like Robson and Scholes once did but we don't have that supporting cast! We should be mixing it up Getting to the byeline and pulling it back and picking someone out is a very profitable ploy but we don't work ourselves into those positions>We're all about crossing it in from deep and hoping for the best! I can't believe we'll persist with this tactic and I hope that eventually we'll evolve our game with the improvements we'll surely make in summer.I am hoping more than expecting but we'll see eh!
The midfield players have said in their interviews recently that they have been told to hold and not go forward, this means all second ball falls to the opposition letting them counter when we have our front four and usually one (sometimes both) full backs forward. Its crazy. We are getting caught 4 v 4 constantly and Moyes cant seem to grasp how badly this is hurting us and why we keep getting suckered punched. Thank God Kieran Richardson had a rush of blood on Sunday or else we'd have gone in at half time 2-0 down and we likely would've lost.
Its unbelievable that Moyes claims he cant get us playing good football when managers like Pochettino can take players who have mostly lower division experience and turn them into passing, pressing teams. People laughed when the idea of us signing Victor Wanyama was floated and yet he plays for a team that seems to pass and move the ball better than we do. How can that be when we've spent around £70 million since winning the title last season?
This thread should be renamed "David Moyes - The Mortician".
I wonder what we should do here...put it wide or give it to Rooney in all that space?
He's not actually in that much space, and it'd depends on the run of the ball. But I agree with the thrust of your point. With Fulham's defence so deep we should have attempted more pot shots from the edge of the box to try and get a deflection. Apparently we had 31 attempts, but I don't remember many being from central positions.
I wonder what we should do here...put it wide or give it to Rooney in all that space?
Depressing, aint it?
I was talking about the crossing technique and the better accuracy of crosses, surely no one sane can't believe that no improvement is possible on them. It is a percentage game indeed but you can increase those percentages if you cross the ball better. Maybe you misunderstood what I meant cause otherwise it makes no sense to me.
There are going to be very strong winds at the game tonight. Let's see how our crossing fares against a passing team.
Tactical uber-nerd, Jonathan Wilson, talking moyes and tactics on the always excellent Second Captains podcast:
http://instaca.st/b/fop
About 32 minutes in.
tl;dl it's all Rooney's fault.
http://instaca.st/b/fop
About 32 minutes in.
tl;dl it's all Rooney's fault.
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@MoneyMay , very good analysis of the last game. I agree with everything, yes Fulham were playing compact at the back but there were many instances where space was available through the middle.
This nonsense again.
In the interview where Fletcher said the role of CMs at United was to be very disciplined defensively and let the front four get forward and create he referred to "the last few years" (direct quote).
This is not some new tactic, introduced by Moyes, no matter how badly some of ye would like it to be.
Fletcher didn't train or play last season. Besides, he isn't going to come out and say "Moyes has us playing more defensively," is he? Cleverley has said this season that thew new manager requires them to play a more holding role. United's midfield never sat as deep under Fergie.
Let's suppose that when the board sat down with Fergie, they didn't just take his word for it, they considered him properly and assessed his tactical ability. Therefore, it would be safe to assume that they think he has the knowledge to challenge for the title. So, I doubt that he is playing 442 or his odd version of it, as a long term means. I firmly believe he is doing it as our CM is unable to play the 4231 that he wants.
Carrick, Cleverley, Anderson, Giggs do not have that closing down, chomping at heel ability I'm sure he wants. A fully fit Fellaini may just, as does Jones. Once both fit, I wouldn't be surprised to see both the latter two holding CM area and 3 played ahead of them. Then we will see Kagawa, Mata and Rooney all playing in that #10 position. The CM's I first mention aren't good enough to play in that role without leaving big gaps. That's my take on it.
I am more than confident he has the know how but he just needs to get the players in to do it. Shame he can't get the current crop doing so, but that's life.
Carrick, Cleverley, Anderson, Giggs do not have that closing down, chomping at heel ability I'm sure he wants. A fully fit Fellaini may just, as does Jones. Once both fit, I wouldn't be surprised to see both the latter two holding CM area and 3 played ahead of them. Then we will see Kagawa, Mata and Rooney all playing in that #10 position. The CM's I first mention aren't good enough to play in that role without leaving big gaps. That's my take on it.
I am more than confident he has the know how but he just needs to get the players in to do it. Shame he can't get the current crop doing so, but that's life.
I genuinely have no idea how people can type out posts that say:
"we shouldn't play a 4-4-2, we should play a 4-2-3-1 with Rooney in the hole'
Just think about what you are saying for the love of god, they're the same thing.
"we shouldn't play a 4-4-2, we should play a 4-2-3-1 with Rooney in the hole'
Just think about what you are saying for the love of god, they're the same thing.
Really? For the love of god, do explain.
he's saying rooney already plays in the hole, which is true
I think what people really mean to say is they want our widest attacking players tucking in more, and more focus to be on passing through the centre.
I'm with you. This game was the first time we had enough of the ball to do whatever we wanted, and we were too 1D.
A part of me says that playing wide is the correct strategy vs a team with 10 defenders, and that this can't happen every week. We will have to see I suppose
Which is what I meant when I said 'the 4231 he wants to play' but he just decided to go all tactical wizard on me rather than reading the post.
He said "last few seasons", referring to the way that he had been instructed to play.
That is clearly not referring to just this season alone.
I'm aware he didn't play last season. Hence his comments obviously refer to instructions going back at least as far as the season before last, if not further.
You're just twisting facts to support your anti-Moyes agenda now. Very annoying.
P.S.
Impressive the way you managed to completely contradict yourself in the very next sentence!
I wonder what we should do here...put it wide or give it to Rooney in all that space?
Not sure, with two defending players behind him ready to come after the ball while he receives it, it's a lower percentage ball than a cross, imho, because for it to be a successful pass relies on Rooney to come to the ball rather than wait for it.
The most notable thing about that picture is that all 10 of Fulham's outfield players are in shot, playing some sort of weird 631 formation, with all of the "3" running backwards from a starting point right beside the edge of their own box!
I think it all depends on how the players are set up. Rooney could have called for the ball, and then played it through to whoever was unmarked on the wing, thus shifting play much quicker than if Evra was to pass it to the wing. I'm not going to lie, I've seen Januzaj do this often this season, where he receives the ball in that area Rooney is in then plays the ball around the back, but Rooney is much more inclined to play the ball out wide.
At the end of the day, it all comes down to what we practice. If Moyes wanted his players to play quick football in and around the box, I'm sure we would work on it in training and those who couldn't play that type of football would be benched.
Trawling through the game to find a screen shot of where rooney has 4 yards of space isn't going to teach anyone a lesson in here... not sure if it makes a difference, we we passed the ball to januzaj above and scored from his cross I believe? That is being a bit result oriented i guess
Much better tactical variety. I hope we build on that.