Yea well I'm too slow
It's just I've turned off other games early and not known of late goals until reading about them or watching MOTD.
David de Gea | 2011-14 Performances
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It's just I've turned off other games early and not known of late goals until reading about them or watching MOTD.
What's fickle about reserving judgement on a player? I'd be fickle if I'd ever said I thought he was a proven PL keeper but I never have. I'm hoping he'll go on to establish himself as a future United keeper but as things stand, I'm not yet convinced...
You can speak for yourself but his comment wasn't really directed straight at you.
He may have all the talent in the world, but if he doesn't have the self-belief and mental strength required to get through all these, he won't fulfill it, at least not at United. Ronaldo for example had all of that to do it at a big club, that's why he's now one of the best players in the world
What made you think that was directed at you?
Look around, people claiming it was a mistake buying him, people claiming they doubt he'l ever improve, questions about his price, questioning what is the "potential" that everyone sees or is it just blind belief etc are what i was referring to.
Spot on! Time for Lindegaard to shine.
So you now know how much football I watch too? Also specifically the way I watch football? Could you be more precise? I don't understand what you mean by 'the way I watched the same as I watch DDG'. Do I watch DDG sitting upside down?
Also, is it really beyond all imagination that there are different classification of errors? Thought I'd summarised pretty well the types of mistakes you can make as a goalkeeper. Hart was decent, I'm not saying that because other keepers have been impressive at a young age then so should DDG, but everyone is keen to say 'Ohh yeah, these mistakes are normal... it's because of his age!'.
There is absolutely no evidence to back that up other than hope. I shouldn't have to clarify this again, but there is a difference to adapting to another league, and fundamental goalkeeping errors. Not all of DDG's errors have been from crosses at Stoke have they? Besides, my concerns are not just the brief moment he may concede a goal, but over 90 minutes of a game.
Some seem to have made a bizarre assumption that I think DDG should make absolutely 0 mistakes, or that I think he doesn't need to adapt to English football, all of which is totally false. If you're trying to argue with me claiming these things then you really are missing my point.
stupid mistake by him yesterday, hes not been comfortable coming off his line and dealing with crosses and commanding his area, it's a difficult aspect of goalkeeping to try and improve on too
we should have a keeper in goal for us who is ready to be in goal, not one whos still going to take a few years to develop his game, lindegaard should be given a chance.
we should have a keeper in goal for us who is ready to be in goal, not one whos still going to take a few years to develop his game, lindegaard should be given a chance.
Fair enough.
But is there an argument that this trial of fire if you want to call it that he will learn quicker than if he was playing behind Vidic and Rio? I honestly don't know - what matters more than playing behind a better defence is simply playing behind players you know how they play - you know the defenders who attack others who stand off etc. If you know their game you can then pre-empt what you need to do.
Why is it so 'fickle'? I think you're exaggerating what people here are questioning.
Yep totally agree with that, which is why I find it a bit weird that VIM assumes he wont improve his decision making as he gets to know the players in front of him and his communication improves.
Again - putting words into my mouth that I never even said.
If you want to have a debate with me then do just that, instead of indirectly addressing me with petty comments to other people.Do you even read my posts?
I specifically said that some types of errors will improve in time with adapting to the English Premier League, but some of his errors are totally irrelevant to the Premier League, and translate into any league, for any team and for any price - and they concern me.
Its fickle because he was being hailed here as a fantastic buy just a few weeks ago and will be hailed so again in a months time if he stays error free and pulls off few great saves.
With some, its never a middle road. Am not exaggerating anything, just pointing out that with young players, you need to give them time. We went for someone who isnt the best now but has the ability to be rather than go for a safe proven option. We have to live with it rather than expect him to be what VDS was straightaway. Too much of a cultural difference in styles in england and spain for him to never get found out.
Again - putting words into my mouth that I never even said.
Do you even read my posts?
I specifically said that some types of errors will improve in time with adapting to the English Premier League, but some of his errors are totally irrelevant to the Premier League, and translate into any league, for any team and for any price - and they concern me.
Are you referring to his positioning on crosses? Or when he comes to punch?
Sorry but you can't hail it as fickle because some people said he was a fantastic buy, and now (for all you know) totally different people are questioning him. The two views are not related unless stated by the same person.
This is a fair point to discuss. You want to delve into it further.
This is not knee-jerk or anything to do with yesterday. While we are talking about his talent, is it really apparent that he has an abundance of that with the ability of being world class? I know he is only 21, but any thoughts that he is only a decent goalkeeper now with another level to being just good in a few years? We probably said exactly the same with Ben Foster and Mark Bonisch but they didn't reach to that top level of goalkeepers at all
The fact that i didnt quote anybody when making the initial post should tell you that it wasnt aimed at anyone in particular but just at the general shift in the mood of the thread since yesterday.
Again - putting words into my mouth that I never even said.
Do you even read my posts?
I specifically said that some types of errors will improve in time with adapting to the English Premier League, but some of his errors are totally irrelevant to the Premier League, and translate into any league, for any team and for any price - and they concern me.
I'm not putting words in your mouth, stop being so precious... you've said you dont see the potential and asked me if seeing potential in him is just blind faith.
Well its not, its based on the form he's shown coupled with the belief that he will improve areas of his game as he gets older, gets more experience. The main area being decision making, which commadus has nicely summed up above and which you've said is a mistake
Decision making improves with experience and communication with your team mates, it IS dependent on what you have in front of you.
I find it strange that you think otherwise.
You're a United fan I imagine? That means you watch DDG differently than other goalkeepers because you aren't neutral. You know what I meant.
I also expect you don't watch the others as much because why would you? They played for Birmingham, City before the money and Szczesny was somewhere I don't remember. Why would you watch them as much as United?
Going out for a cross and missing it is about as normal gk feck up as you can find. All keepers do it. It's because sometimes the ball bends, get's a little predictable and they've already gone out for it. In those instances, stopping or backing could be a bigger mistake than keep going out. It's a split second decision.
Then you have keepers like Given who hardly go out for the ball at all. It nullifies his mistakes in dropping clangers but he's of no use ate clearing the ball either.
Blackburn aren't any worse than Stoke in the box.
I don't think that you should think that he shouldn't make mistakes. Just don't try to say that it's abnormal for a young goalkeeper. Fundamentals get messed up every match. It's pretty much the most common reason that goals are scored at football.
Defenders don't keep in line and therefor attacker isn't offside.
Bad marking in set pieces.
Not tracking your man back.
Being flatfooted and therefor allowing the attacker to go past you with ease.
Missing a clear goal scoring opportunity.
Foul a player inside the box.
You haven't taken into account one bit how rubbish our defending has been. It's really been quite appalling at times. The goals we tend to concede are so lame. Silly mistakes.
I've already also pointed out to you that goalkeepers also make mistakes which aren't punished. Lindegaard has for example been luckier in that aspect than DDG. He's made a poor clearance twice which didn't result in a goal like against Benfica. Twice he's had a ball come straight at him from the ground, he's gone down do parry it only to drop the ball behind him. Not any danger, not any speed on the ball and the grass didn't bother him. He just dropped the balls. Then he laughed about it like it was nothing.
Anders was fine against Benfica but Norwich, Aston Villa and Wigan were all toothless and little to no threat at all. Fulham shots were mostly blocked or AJ shooting straight at him. Got tested once.
I personally don't think he's any better at coming out for crosses. He seems to go out every time and is very similar to DDG in that aspect. He just hasn't been punished for it the same.
I don't remember Foster putting in as many decent performances as De Gea has.
De Gea is far from the finished article and may well never reach the top level, we can't really know at this stage, but I feel like I've seen more promise from him than I ever saw from Foster. I used to really panic when Foster was required to do some decision making or was in a 1 on 1 situation, I feel like De Gea has shown more development in his time with us than Foster did.
De Gea is far from the finished article and may well never reach the top level, we can't really know at this stage, but I feel like I've seen more promise from him than I ever saw from Foster. I used to really panic when Foster was required to do some decision making or was in a 1 on 1 situation, I feel like De Gea has shown more development in his time with us than Foster did.
Those are errors that should be improved with experience in the EPL (imo). The errors that worry me are basic positioning in open play and also decision making in open play.
To be honest though, I think his performance during corners and crosses are so bad that they may go beyond just adapting. Time will tell though, I hope he can prove me wrong. I don't think it's beyond reasonable doubt that he can become a top goalkeeper, but I fail to see why people are so assured that this will happen.
Well until yesterday I thought he'd come on a lot in claiming crosses since the Brom game, I think yesterday was a blip and the keeper rotation didn't help.
That's my view as well
Exactly right.
And you dont think De Gea's decision making might also be linked to communication or the back 4 he has in front of him or that its likely to improve?
I agree with you in the main Snow, wouldn't really say Linders has been all that much 'luckier' than DDG though, but I'm not here to unreasonably battle against opinions! :P
What I will say though, is that I never really highlighted his ability to deal with crosses and such as the major issue. That has kind of been fabricated due to the timing of this debate. I've always thought that side of his game will improve in time, even if I am less confident of it now, it is without doubt a side to a goalkeepers game that can only really improve with experience.
What I will say though, is that I never really highlighted his ability to deal with crosses and such as the major issue. That has kind of been fabricated due to the timing of this debate. I've always thought that side of his game will improve in time, even if I am less confident of it now, it is without doubt a side to a goalkeepers game that can only really improve with experience.
Nor did having a back four that never played together in front of him, consisting of a midfielder and a positionally naive 19 year old at CB.
... and no I'm not blaming them directly for DG's flap before I get that levelled at me.
Positioning in open play? The only goal i remember us conceding from open play because of an error in positioning was the 20yarder from dzeko. Even the goal vs WBA went under him. Last night was an error at coming out and claiming a cross, an area we all agree he needs work in.
Regarding the 2nd bit, for me personally, i see a 21yr old with great potential who's already great at quite a few aspects of goalkeeping. great kicking, shot stopping etc. what he definitely needs to improve is his aerial ability. catching and punching crosses. To be fair to him, having played in spain all his life, i can understand why he's finding it tough here. And am willing to be patient because i see us having one of the best young GKs out there. add to that our fantastic coaches and that with age he'l bulk up which will give him a further advantage in such situations and those reasons are enough for me to be optimistic. Also, he comes across as a confident assured lad. That is a must for a player at a club like ours.
Exactly.... this is why people see great potential in him.... its quite a long way from blind faith.
Can someone tell me our stats re - goals conceded at corners and set pieces?
Basic positioing in open play? That would assume he is either too far off his line or too near his line? In that case he would be poor in one on ones when in fact I would say its one of his strengths.
A sign of good positioning and an example is VDS - he hardly had to make the athletic acrobatic save as he was well positioned, anticipated well and had good feet so he was in position early and made it look like a simple save. What I hate is that the striker shot at the GK - credit the GK for being well positioned - thats his job!
Can you give me examples of bad decision making in open play?
I'm sure it will do, but decision making is kind of broad-terminology. There are some types of decision making that will be greatly improved by experience with the back 4, such as knowing when to come out to the front of his box and collect a ball, when to stay and let the defender clear it etc.
There are however, types of decision making that are totally independent to defenders, for example where to stand in open play and what post to cover. This covers positioning too, which I think is one of his weakest attributes as a goalkeeper, and an attribute that I think we can agree to is irrelevant in the main to your defence or league. These are stand-alone attributes of a goalkeeper.
RE his positioning in open play, I'm sure he's been beaten at his near post a good few times this season, and his well publicised weakness to deal with long-shots even back in Spain, also suggests that his positioning may be a bit sub-par. It's a concern of mine, as he's been bought to play in the 1st team, and it's not a weakness that is solely attached to the Premier League, who is to say he will ever have great positioning? I'm not saying he won't... but it's by no means a guarantee. It could takes years.
VIM how would you categorise DDG positioning and organising a wall?
I can only recall him being beaten by gerrard and that was the fault of Giggs!
I can only recall him being beaten by gerrard and that was the fault of Giggs!
I'm not sure his positional play is one of his biggest problems (how many long shots have caught him out?) I think its something hammed up by sky 'oh he's dodgey on long balls'.... but assuming it is why do you think it's something that wont improve with experience and coaching?
I think his biggest problems are:
1. Dealing with crosses
2. Commanding the area
Obviously they're linked and I think both can be explained by the fact that he's young and used to playing in la liga, and that they will obviously improve with experience and age.
I think his biggest problems are:
1. Dealing with crosses
2. Commanding the area
Obviously they're linked and I think both can be explained by the fact that he's young and used to playing in la liga, and that they will obviously improve with experience and age.
In short - no fecking idea! lol
Edit: As in - I have no idea... not I think DDG has no idea!
Fair points.
I can only recall bad positiong re Dzeko goal in the thumping where he was beaten on his near post. Can someone put together a gif of all his goals he has conceded.
This weakness at long shots? Can it be a stastical anomoly - ie he hasnt played much games may have conceded a few long goals but there isnt enough evidence to draw a proper conclusion.
You are right bad positioning usually shows up in not covering the near post or getting caught under a cross.
I thought over the last few weeks he was ironing out these issues - re commanding the area and coming for crosses. Against Wolves? He came out fast and punched well.
The important aspect about being young is you can be inconsistent unless you are a freak like Messi!!
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