Darron Gibson - is he good enough for Everton?

The entire argument was that fans in general judge players too quickly, and it's not too hard to figure out why, and it's a trend that's continuing in this very thread.

The Fletcher thread was a example of people on here judging him too quickly, quite obviously, and given how he's turned out you'd think people would want to be a bit more patient.

It's a simple argument, there's no reason for it to take so long to discuss. You might not want to embrace it but it's not complicated and there's no reason for this to continue being explained.

There reason for the thread was to get people's opinions as to whether Gibson is good enough or not.

People keep using Fletcher as some kind of an example as to whether we can judge a player or not. Of course we can have an opinion on a player before he has played with the club for 8 or 9 years. Practially everyone except SAF knew Bellion was absolutely shite. Practically everyone knew Manucho was absolutely shite. Of course people can have opinions as to whether a player can or will be good enough.
 
The vast majority of people on here don't have a well-informed view of whether Gibson's good enough - and that includes me - so the only logical option is to wait and see.
 
The vast majority of people on here don't have a well-informed view of whether Gibson's good enough - and that includes me - so the only logical option is to wait and see.

Those people must not have seen him playing so. A lot of us have seen him playing on numerous occasions and can have an opinion as to whether he is that good or not. Some people can have different opinions, that is what the thread is for.
 
He's only ever made 6 league starts for us.

I'm not sure Sir Alex knows whether he'll make it never mind any of us.
 
He has played a load of reserve games. He has played for Ireland numerous times. He has played for Ireland u21s numerous times. It is not as if he has only played 6 games in his whole career.
 
An opinion yes, but writing him off is not an opinion it's idiotic dross.

Thinking he might not make it isn't wrong, saying he will is.
 
The vast majority of people on here don't have a well-informed view of whether Gibson's good enough - and that includes me - so the only logical option is to wait and see.

Watching him play is a well informed view by my recollection. Hes a poor player, will be shipped out soon and hopefully he impresses at a Championship club.
 
You are the one using these people's opinions as proof Fletcher wasn't better than Gibson. You've forgotten your entire arguement.
No you fecking idiot. You're just confusing yourself. My entire argument in this thread has been based strictly around getting people to wait and see, rather than writing players off prematurely.

The opinions of those people in that thread only came into focus because of the inaccurate claim that at 22 Fletcher was performing better than Gibson and was rated better. When he was anything but. As a cross section of those opinions clearly shows. Both on here, and in the press. But people like you would rather re invent history. Just because some one is pointing out to you that what you are doing now was done before to the embarrassment of many.
 
He has played a load of reserve games. He has played for Ireland numerous times. He has played for Ireland u21s numerous times. It is not as if he has only played 6 games in his whole career.
That matters little. He has hardly played often for the first team to truly iron out the kinks in his game, or to be judged as a United player as to whether he will make it or not. For even after over 100 games for us, Fletcher still hadn't convinced most people.
 
Petrucci has far more to his game than Gibson does. In 5 years time when Petrucci is Gibson's age, I'd be extremely surprised if he hasn't completely surpassed his ability.
He already has more ability than Gibson. But I'll be very surprised if he has a first team role bigger than what Gibson has now when he gets to 22. If he is still here. He wont find the step up as easy as some of you think it will be. A glance at how Anderson is doing should tell you this.
 
No you fecking idiot. You're just confusing yourself. My entire argument in this thread has been based strictly around getting people to wait and see, rather than writing players off prematurely.

The opinions of those people in that thread only came into focus because of the inaccurate claim that at 22 Fletcher was performing better than Gibson and was rated better. When he was anything but. As a cross section of those opinions clearly shows. Both on here, and in the press. But people like you would rather re invent history. Just because some one is pointing out to you that what you are doing now was done before to the embarrassment of many.

Listen retard you stated with 100% certainty that Fletcher was not better than Gibson at 22. I asked you to prove it. You then tried to use a thread of people slating Fletcher as proof and then decided that these very same people were idiots. You fall into that group beautifully.

I expect another response that doesn't actually have anything to do with what I just said.
 
No you fecking idiot. You're just confusing yourself. My entire argument in this thread has been based strictly around getting people to wait and see, rather than writing players off prematurely.

The opinions of those people in that thread only came into focus because of the inaccurate claim that at 22 Fletcher was performing better than Gibson and was rated better. When he was anything but. As a cross section of those opinions clearly shows. Both on here, and in the press. But people like you would rather re invent history. Just because some one is pointing out to you that what you are doing now was done before to the embarrassment of many.

Only one of us here with previous of that.
 
Under SAF I don't remember any he showed real faith in, like he has with Gibson, and Fletcher in the past, who disappointed him. You can correct me if I'm wrong.

Ronnie Wallwork springs to mind. From the facts I vaguely remember he was used in the same fashion as Gibson has been used recently, i.e. a back-up midfielder when the first-team once failed to play consistently due to injuries. He never proved himself here, nor anywhere else to be fair. His wikipedia says he played 19 games for us, Gibson has probably started less than that.
 
Listen retard you stated with 100% certainty that Fletcher was not better than Gibson at 22. I asked you prove. You then tried to use a thread of people slating Fletcher as proof and then decided that these very same people were idiots. You fall into that group beautifully.
I didn't fecking try anything you retarded buffoon:lol:

I presented concrete evidence, of a small section of recorded history. A history of people's opinions of him at the time. People who did THE EXACT SAME bullshit you are doing with Gibson right now. Writting him off because of the inconsistent and few top quality performances he was putting in week in week out. With far worse disrespect than Gibson is getting now, having played many more games in comparison. Only a true feck wit like yourself would claim any other proof is needed that Fetcher was rated far worse than Gibson is now.

Worse still only a fool like yourself could fail to realise the obvious, that those people people only proved fools in the end because of writting a player off way too prematurely. I didn't suddenly ''decide they were fools'' as you stupdily suggested

I expect another response that doesn't actually have anything to do with what I just said.
Rather you expect me to fail to point out what an utter airhead you are. But that's not about to happen. So you can bury your head in the sand like an Ostrich once more, pretend as usual what I've posted isn't connected to the bullshit you wrote above plus ''ineligible gibberish'' (:lol:), and call me a ''retard'' once again, whilst you play the greatest one of all time to ever grace these boards.

It's a role you play so well.
 
Either way Gibson has a chance for the rest of the season with Giggs, Anderson and Hargreaves all out for a large period of time and Scholes unable to play every single match. He has the chance to stake a claim and not we'll see if he grabs it with both hands of if he fails similar to Foster. I'm not sure how many chances he would get next season as the competition will no doubt heat again if he were to struggle.
 
I didn't fecking try anything you retarded buffoon:lol:

I presented concrete evidence, of a small section of recorded history. A history of people's opinions of him at the time. People who did THE EXACT SAME bullshit you are doing with Gibson right now. Writting him off because of the inconsistent and few top quality performances he was putting in week in week out. With far worse disrespect than Gibson is getting now, having played many more games in comparison. Only a true feck wit like yourself would claim any other proof is needed that Fetcher was rated far worse than Gibson is now.

Worse still only a fool like yourself could fail to realise the obvious, that those people people only proved fools in the end because of writting a player off way too prematurely. I didn't suddenly ''decide they were fools'' as you stupdily suggested

Rather you expect me to fail to point out what an utter airhead you are. But that's not about to happen. So you can bury your head in the sand like an Ostrich once more, pretend as usual what I've posted isn't connected to the bullshit you wrote above plus ''ineligible gibberish'' (:lol:), and call me a ''retard'' once again, whilst you play the greatest one of all time to ever grace these boards.

It's a role you play so well.

I think you need to look up what the word opinion means then get back to me.
 
Ronnie Wallwork springs to mind. From the facts I vaguely remember he was used in the same fashion as Gibson has been used recently, i.e. a back-up midfielder when the first-team once failed to play consistently due to injuries. He never proved himself here, nor anywhere else to be fair. His wikipedia says he played 19 games for us, Gibson has probably started less than that.
I bet he is the only one. Gibson has already out performed his contribution to United with far less games, to be bruttally honest.
 
I didn't fecking try anything you retarded buffoon:lol:

I presented concrete evidence, of a small section of recorded history. A history of people's opinions of him at the time. People who did THE EXACT SAME bullshit you are doing with Gibson right now. Writting him off because of the inconsistent and few top quality performances he was putting in week in week out. With far worse disrespect than Gibson is getting now, having played many more games in comparison. Only a true feck wit like yourself would claim any other proof is needed that Fetcher was rated far worse than Gibson is now.

Worse still only a fool like yourself could fail to realise the obvious, that those people people only proved fools in the end because of writting a player off way too prematurely. I didn't suddenly ''decide they were fools'' as you stupdily suggested

Rather you expect me to fail to point out what an utter airhead you are. But that's not about to happen. So you can bury your head in the sand like an Ostrich once more, pretend as usual what I've posted isn't connected to the bullshit you wrote above plus ''ineligible gibberish'' (:lol:), and call me a ''retard'' once again, whilst you play the greatest one of all time to ever grace these boards.

It's a role you play so well.

You're using these fools opinions as concrete proof that Fletcher wasn't better than Gibson at that stage. Only an idiot like you could do something that stupid and try to accuse others of stupidity. Your thread only proves a lot of people were wrong about Fletcher, nothing else.

I'll ask you again, how is Gibson better at 22 than Fletcher was? Remember, opinions prove nothing.
 
You're using these fools opinions as concrete proof that Fletcher wasn't better than Gibson at that stage. Only an idiot like you could do something that stupid and try to accuse others of stupidity.
:lol:
Jesus man, Are you for real?

It still hasn't dawned on you yet that what those people said at the time were an accurate reflection of his performances at the time, NOT his abilities?

That AT THE TIME, they made gave those opinions on his performances they were spot on?

Lastly, it still hasn't dawned on you that they only proved fools in the end, BECAUSE they claimed that BECAUSE OF HIS PERFORMANCES at the time he would NEVER make it?

Is that so hard for your brain to actually grasp?

Statements like this below:
Your thread only proves a lot of people were wrong about Fletcher, nothing else.

Just show how retarded and utterly stupid you are.

So you can feck of with your search for 'proof' for your question. No other proof will be presented to you beyond what is already in this thread and many others from the past. If you're to damn stupid to accept or grasp that then too damn bad for you.
 
You're just too stupid to debate with. I'll leave you to your fantasies.
 
You're just too stupid to debate with. I'll leave you to your fantasies.
Rather you will be leaving me in peace frankly. For I'm truly tired of wasting time with an utter air head like your self. Who sprouts repeated bullshit time and again and once he sees no one is buying it, hides behind the statement 'you're to stupid to debate''. In order to flatter himself and keep feeding the fantasy that he has some cleverness existing in his body. When the reality is the absolute opposite. Which is you are the one too stupid for words to describe.

Good riddance. You cringe worthy excuse for a poster.
 
Rather you will be leaving me in peace frankly. For I'm truly tired of wasting time with an utter air head like your self. Who sprouts repeated bullshit time and again and once he sees no one is buying it, hides behind the statement 'you're to stupid to debate''. In order to flatter himself and keep feeding the fantasy that he has some cleverness existing in his body. When the reality is the absolute opposite. Which is you are the one too stupid for words to describe.

Good riddance. You cringe worthy excuse for a poster.

I've said all that needs to be said. Your attempt to accuse me of running because nobody's 'buying it' is as evey bit as petty and childish as I've come to expect from you.
 
Making friends again, Chief?
Quite the opposite. Telling I poster who I regard as a fecking idiot that I'd be very happy to not have to bother with him and his bullshit anymore. But he is clearly too stupid to grasp it so he has replied with his favotrite 'you are childish'' retort in another vain attempt to appear less stupid that he is. He is dreadfully predictable.
 
Watching him play is a well informed view by my recollection. Hes a poor player, will be shipped out soon and hopefully he impresses at a Championship club.

I'm really not sure how seriously to take people who believe that they can watch a player, even over a period of 10 games, and then plot their future career path with a degree of certainty that even most managers would admit is nigh on impossible. Where the obsession with certainly comes from, I have no idea, but I'm fairly sure that it isn't the case that those who are the most certain about these things are in possession of some kind of secret knowledge that the rest of us simply don't have access to. In fact, it has been shown that the opposite is usually the case. People who sound certain and use language that appears to offer no possibility of their minds being changed are often the least knowledgeable, but they attempt to hide that fact behind a facade of unwarranted certainty.

And that kind of certainty almost guarantee's that if you had just so happened to have caught many of the greatest players of all time on several bad days, some people would have written them off as being "shit", or as, "never going to make it". It is true that some very talented players catch the eye almost immediately, but I've also lost count of the number of young players that have really excited me on first viewing, only for them to completely fall off the radar not too long after that. And it's easy to forget those who went on to become fantastic footballers, yet started out their career as relative unknowns. The very fact that they were at one point relative unknowns inevitably means that the only time that we do notice them is when they are already well on their way to becoming fantastic players, so we often have not had the opportunity to recognize how much some footballers change in their formative years, particularly as they are getting used to playing first team football.

I suppose that it's the caviler approach that I don't really like. The more that I watch football, the more cautious I become about predicting anything, particularly where young players are concerned. Yes, that is largely ego driven, I suppose, in that I really don't want to be wrong, but I'd also like to think that I've seen enough evidence to suggest that football cannot be as simple as many people like to make it out to be.

However, it is also true that you can only be honest about your opinion, and I certainly don't think that people should be afraid to express their opinions, even when — and particularly so — those opinions are not necessarily popular. But it might help if more people were aware of of the pitfalls of their own belief forming processes. One point that I have made before is about how little detailed information we remember, particularly when watching live games. I used to regularly watch replays of United games — and still do when I have the time — and it is truly amazing how much more you learn about those games and players on the field when watching for a second or third time, and particularly when there is none of the emotion or tension of not knowing what is going to happen. It is only then that you can truly become an observer, in my opinion.

One other thing that I have also noticed is how much people tend to remember certain incidents during games, like the goals, bad mistakes, crunching tackles, etc, and on the flip side, how they tend to gloss over much of the action in the middle third of the pitch. I really don't know why that is, though I suspect that the kind of action that happens in that area — lots of short passing, generally — seems to all blend in to obscurity, due to the fact that much of what happens is very similar. And it is precisely because so much of the same kind of actions take place in that area of the field that it is inevitably going to be difficult to remember much detail about what actually does happen. Plus, it is probably also the case that our brains take a brief moment of respite in those instances, in anticipation of the next time that one of the sides reaches the edge of the opposition penalty area.

And that can have a negative impact on our assessment of central midfield players, especially. Michael Carrick is a classic example of this, because he tends to keep the game ticking over — something that it vital to winning a game — and a lot of that isn't recognized, either because people view it just what he does (as if it it somehow easy), or because it is much harder to recollect moments that particularly stick out in your mind. That does not, however, mean that all of those touches of the ball are not vital to winning the game. I would argue that the opposite is true, in fact, even if it is not instantly recognizable as such.
 
Don't see the potential to be honest. He seems to have a decent shot on him and that's pretty much it. And that's what bases his whole game around.

It's the opposite of Anderson whose potential was obvious from the start. Even with Fletcher, I always felt he had good potential, or had something about him that suggets he might come good. Yes, there were times when we got frustrated with him and felt he was probably never going to become good enough. But with Gibson, as few starts as he might have had, I just can't see the potential.

Hopefully it's a mental thing and with time he shows what he's all about. But very rarely have I seen no potential in a player who goes to become good.

Sorry just to add, even with Obertan, you can see he has potential. Whether he does anything with it is another thing.
 
I'm really not sure how seriously to take people who believe that they can watch a player, even over a period of 10 games, and then plot their future career path with a degree of certainty that even most managers would admit is nigh on impossible. Where the obsession with certainly comes from, I have no idea, but I'm fairly sure that it isn't the case that those who are the most certain about these things are in possession of some kind of secret knowledge that the rest of us simply don't have access to. In fact, it has been shown that the opposite is usually the case. People who sound certain and use language that appears to offer no possibility of their minds being changed are often the least knowledgeable, but they attempt to hide that fact behind a facade of unwarranted certainty.

And that kind of certainty almost guarantee's that if you had just so happened to have caught many of the greatest players of all time on several bad days, some people would have written them off as being "shit", or as, "never going to make it". It is true that some very talented players catch the eye almost immediately, but I've also lost count of the number of young players that have really excited me on first viewing, only for them to completely fall off the radar not too long after that. And it's easy to forget those who went on to become fantastic footballers, yet started out their career as relative unknowns. The very fact that they were at one point relative unknowns inevitably means that the only time that we do notice them is when they are already well on their way to becoming fantastic players, so we often have not had the opportunity to recognize how much some footballers change in their formative years, particularly as they are getting used to playing first team football.

I suppose that it's the caviler approach that I don't really like. The more that I watch football, the more cautious I become about predicting anything, particularly where young players are concerned. Yes, that is largely ego driven, I suppose, in that I really don't want to be wrong, but I'd also like to think that I've seen enough evidence to suggest that football cannot be as simple as many people like to make it out to be.

However, it is also true that you can only be honest about your opinion, and I certainly don't think that people should be afraid to express their opinions, even when — and particularly so — those opinions are not necessarily popular. But it might help if more people were aware of of the pitfalls of their own belief forming processes. One point that I have made before is about how little detailed information we remember, particularly when watching live games. I used to regularly watch replays of United games — and still do when I have the time — and it is truly amazing how much more you learn about those games and players on the field when watching for a second or third time, and particularly when there is none of the emotion or tension of not knowing what is going to happen. It is only then that you can truly become an observer, in my opinion.

One other thing that I have also noticed is how much people tend to remember certain incidents during games, like the goals, bad mistakes, crunching tackles, etc, and on the flip side, how they tend to gloss over much of the action in the middle third of the pitch. I really don't know why that is, though I suspect that the kind of action that happens in that area — lots of short passing, generally — seems to all blend in to obscurity, due to the fact that much of what happens is very similar. And it is precisely because so much of the same kind of actions take place in that area of the field that it is inevitably going to be difficult to remember much detail about what actually does happen. Plus, it is probably also the case that our brains take a brief moment of respite in those instances, in anticipation of the next time that one of the sides reaches the edge of the opposition penalty area.

And that can have a negative impact on our assessment of central midfield players, especially. Michael Carrick is a classic example of this, because he tends to keep the game ticking over — something that it vital to winning a game — and a lot of that isn't recognized, either because people view it just what he does (as if it it somehow easy), or because it is much harder to recollect moments that particularly stick out in your mind. That does not, however, mean that all of those touches of the ball are not vital to winning the game. I would argue that the opposite is true, in fact, even if it is not instantly recognizable as such.
Great post. Just watch the resident caf, idiot acnumber9, try his best to make it sound like you agreed with his stance on Gibson. Or anything else for that matter.
 
I'm really not sure how seriously to take people who believe that they can watch a player, even over a period of 10 games, and then plot their future career path with a degree of certainty that even most managers would admit is nigh on impossible. Where the obsession with certainly comes from, I have no idea, but I'm fairly sure that it isn't the case that those who are the most certain about these things are in possession of some kind of secret knowledge that the rest of us simply don't have access to. In fact, it has been shown that the opposite is usually the case. People who sound certain and use language that appears to offer no possibility of their minds being changed are often the least knowledgeable, but they attempt to hide that fact behind a facade of unwarranted certainty.

And that kind of certainty almost guarantee's that if you had just so happened to have caught many of the greatest players of all time on several bad days, some people would have written them off as being "shit", or as, "never going to make it". It is true that some very talented players catch the eye almost immediately, but I've also lost count of the number of young players that have really excited me on first viewing, only for them to completely fall off the radar not too long after that. And it's easy to forget those who went on to become fantastic footballers, yet started out their career as relative unknowns. The very fact that they were at one point relative unknowns inevitably means that the only time that we do notice them is when they are already well on their way to becoming fantastic players, so we often have not had the opportunity to recognize how much some footballers change in their formative years, particularly as they are getting used to playing first team football.

I suppose that it's the caviler approach that I don't really like. The more that I watch football, the more cautious I become about predicting anything, particularly where young players are concerned. Yes, that is largely ego driven, I suppose, in that I really don't want to be wrong, but I'd also like to think that I've seen enough evidence to suggest that football cannot be as simple as many people like to make it out to be.

However, it is also true that you can only be honest about your opinion, and I certainly don't think that people should be afraid to express their opinions, even when — and particularly so — those opinions are not necessarily popular. But it might help if more people were aware of of the pitfalls of their own belief forming processes. One point that I have made before is about how little detailed information we remember, particularly when watching live games. I used to regularly watch replays of United games — and still do when I have the time — and it is truly amazing how much more you learn about those games and players on the field when watching for a second or third time, and particularly when there is none of the emotion or tension of not knowing what is going to happen. It is only then that you can truly become an observer, in my opinion.

One other thing that I have also noticed is how much people tend to remember certain incidents during games, like the goals, bad mistakes, crunching tackles, etc, and on the flip side, how they tend to gloss over much of the action in the middle third of the pitch. I really don't know why that is, though I suspect that the kind of action that happens in that area — lots of short passing, generally — seems to all blend in to obscurity, due to the fact that much of what happens is very similar. And it is precisely because so much of the same kind of actions take place in that area of the field that it is inevitably going to be difficult to remember much detail about what actually does happen. Plus, it is probably also the case that our brains take a brief moment of respite in those instances, in anticipation of the next time that one of the sides reaches the edge of the opposition penalty area.

And that can have a negative impact on our assessment of central midfield players, especially. Michael Carrick is a classic example of this, because he tends to keep the game ticking over — something that it vital to winning a game — and a lot of that isn't recognized, either because people view it just what he does (as if it it somehow easy), or because it is much harder to recollect moments that particularly stick out in your mind. That does not, however, mean that all of those touches of the ball are not vital to winning the game. I would argue that the opposite is true, in fact, even if it is not instantly recognizable as such.

Like stating with 100% certainty that a player wasn't better than another at a certain age? I agree.
 
I think Gibson is mediocre...

But I'd be delighted to be completely wrong come next season or the season after...if he's still around.
 
That matters little. He has hardly played often for the first team to truly iron out the kinks in his game, or to be judged as a United player as to whether he will make it or not. For even after over 100 games for us, Fletcher still hadn't convinced most people.

This is not about Darren Fletcher. This is about Darron Gibson. I don't know why people keep going on about Fletcher. They are not the same player. In fact, they are totally different players and one of which is far superior in practically every aspect of his game. Fletcher got a chance to stay at United for years because his potential was clearly there. He had great aspects to his game but he had performance problems. Darron Gibson does not have this kind of potential. He does not have as many good aspects to his game. He has an average game and a few long screamers don't change that. I think the chances of him being at United and playing for as many games as Fletcher have now are slim to none. He is not at that kind of level and has not got the game to be.