Good man. Consider yourself lucky.
Cristiano Ronaldo
- Thread starter ciderman9000000
- Start date
- Status
...and from where do goals and assists come from? And what is the purpose of football? If a player leads goals and assists records/breaks new records each season, is doing that for 5-6 seasons, then there are things beyond that and that is not important and not beautiful?
As I said, those who want to, can keep on fooling themselves about mystical other important things which can't be quantified, it just makes hilarious reading.
I'm sure than are many and there's nothing wrong with that.
The main reason I would say Messi is better (but not by much) is the fact he can actually play anywhere in attack/midfield and be world class. Yes he would probably be worldclass playing CM in the Xavi role, as well as a winger, striker etc.
Anyway its horses for courses as everyone likes different things so some will prefer Ronaldo and some will prefer Messi
Yes. Having as intelligent and knowledgeable poster as you posting as much in a thread about a player he dislikes is certainly very lucky.
I don't know about that. It's one thing to prefer Ronaldo's style over Messi's but as players there's clear daylight in quality between the two of them.
Oh Boy! 
Round 568,000 - here we come!
Round 568,000 - here we come!
Oh Boy!
Round 568,000 - here we come!
Hahaha
I've posted so much this thread because I like Ronaldo you numpty. Maybe posts of late have been critical but older ones would be more positive I'm sure.
Boss created a thread about me being among Ronaldo fanbois once (post United).
But then all you hormonal kids do tend to take any criticism of footballers personally.
@akash02 Can we not compare them, again?
I'm not saying the other things are more important, I just find it sad that more and more people seem to rely on how many goals or assists a player gets instead of watching their performance.
Not sure why you think other things than output are mystical or unquantifiable though. What's the point of watching football if you just care about output? May as well just check the score sheet after each game.
..Hmmmm. Interesting. It must be clearly being hurt because he left then. I have never seen you posting much positive about him for long time now and funnily when he has got better than ever.
Nobody takes his criticism personally. It is when people so desperately try to disregard achievements which are almost unparalleled in history (given the quantity, quality as well consistency of it) with new and new random things, then it becomes irritating. It is about giving someone who is clearly one of the best ever already his due recognition. On grand schemes, it is not going to matter what few here say as many already consider Ronaldo among all time best and it will only get better the more he plays. His records are going to speak for himself.
The point about 'doing more' than just goal and assists is one such desperate exercise. People try to show they 'know' more about game and there is more to game. Of course there is more to game but then it should be understood by people that it relies very much on team style. Ronaldo has always played in counter attacking style teams and it suits him perfectly. In that style, the focus is not on building goal through 100 passes among the team. If Messi is asked to play out wide that much and run on counters that fast and score goals which come through limited passes between 4-5 players, he will be lot less effective.
It is definitely personal choice, which style one likes. Nothing wrong if people like how Barca plays and how greatly effective Messi is in etc, that doesn't make it 'lot better' style and lot better player. Football can be played in so many different ways at each position.
I had said it earlier when I used to post more seriously in this thread that if people say Messi is better than Ronaldo by fine margins, it will be fair. Whether due to being part of one of the greatest teams or due to more achievements or whatever, still, it will be fair. It becomes ridiculous when people consider him to be considerably better player. He isn't.
He probably wouldn't to be honest.
..because watching goals and assists leading to it can be fun? Do you mean to tell me that only a team which plays 100 passes in build up to goal is beauty, even if at end of it, it doesn't lead to goal?
Goal and assists are used so much because they show quality of player. No player can pile on that kind of stats without quality play. There is no dichotomy between 'style of play or beauty' and 'goals and assists', particularly when one piles on so many.
You mean he wouldn't be less effective? I don't agree. It is all hypothetical but he clearly will be less effective if he is asked to play purely as winger or wide forward. Particularly if put in team like Real Madrid in their current style.
Why? Explain your reasoning?
I actually think if he played in the current RM team, in the position Ronaldo is playing he would beat his 92 goals in a calendar year.
because of Real Madrid's reliance on counter attacking play and using the width during counter attacks, leading to goals involving 6-7 passes or so. He can be effective if he is used instead of Benzema but little withdrawn when the space created by Ronaldo and Bale will help him. On the other hand, If he is asked to stay hugging touch line, off the ball and then match Bale's speed on counter(or Ronaldo's if on other wing), he won't be effective. There is a reason why Pep changed his role. Otherwise he would have left Messi wide. Won't make him shit player but compared to current, less effective definitely.
That wasn't what I was trying to say at all. I'm saying people focus on stats too much these days, it's a bit American (maybe American sports are more suited to statistics than football is). Players can play badly but still end up with an assist or a goal while players can be outstanding without having a single goal or assist at the end of it. I genuinely think some people rate players on output and output alone, which is a shame. It's clearly important, but context is needed.
That can be exception, not rule.
Hence, over the course of season or so, goals+assists become so important. The purpose is to win in the end and even if we go by purist view then it is by playing beautifully. Well, there is nothing more beautiful than scoring goal in football, and more one scores, more it makes that player quality (This discussion is more for forwards/attackers obviously, mind you)
Nope, not that either. I used to be biased against messi and had a soft spot for Ronaldo. So I used to be in "ronaldo's corner". Hence, the older posts would be from that corner. Then I got over my Barca and messi hate, and my unbiased view settled at where it always was underneath the bias - that messi was easily the best footballer I'd ever seen. If I post negatively in the Ronaldo threads now, it's more like what pogue used to do earlier - to go against phenomenas that they find absurd. The Ronaldo fanaticism here used to bug him so he used to try and balance it out with what he saw as sense. There's a bit of that in the negative stuff I post here.
Ronaldo's style really isn't the reason he plays like that. If he could playmake and play brilliant through passes and become more of the hub of the team he most definitely could. And he'd be a better player for it. Obviously he still an absolutely brilliant footballer who is ridiculously good at what he's good at.
Actually he would never be played that way in the first place.
I disagree tbh, he is actually quick (not as quick as Ronaldo/Bale) but he is quick, also Ronaldo doesn't hug the touch line and doesn't really play as a traditional winger.
So he has pace, great ability on the ball to beat players, excellent passing and ball distribution, and excellent finishing....
He has also scored plenty of goals for Barca and been involved in Barca counter attacks (even though it wasn't the basis of their game) Usually Messi was the player to actually inject pace of ball and movement into their play.
Anyway its a difference of opinion, looking at the players attributes I'm not sure why he would be less effective. Infact other the years with the decline of Xavi etc at Barca and having to do more in midfield for Barca is actually the thing that is holding him back currently IMO.
If he played with a midfield of Di Maria, Alonso, Modric with Bale on the other side and Benzema upfront last season well I'm sure he would have done better.
If someone has 25 goals and 25 assists while another has 20 goals and 30 assists, who is better? What about if a player has 5 more goals and 5 more assists over an entire season than another player - is he automatically better? Context is crucial. I think you can be a better player and/or have a better season than another player even with less goals and assists. If you disagree, fair enough, but I can't be convinced to think otherwise.
Yeah he can't be a playmaker but he was never supposed to be one. That doesn't make him lesser player, is what the point is. Plus I have rarely seen players with his kind of physique/height become playmaker, so it would be crazy for him to attempt it as well.
Of course it makes him a lesser player! If he could do those things in addition how could he not be better?!
I'm not saying he should attempt it. He's brilliant as it is.
Yeah I'm sure he'd find it murder playing in a team where you get constant supply and constant space to run at defenders. It's got to be so much harder than playing in front of 10 defenders every week.
Deary me
Yeah context is crucial. That's what the whole point is. The numbers you have quoted are fairly close, so in that case it depends. We started topic on importance of goals and assists, not on minor difference between numbers for two. Context btw also includes how team does in the end.
Yeah Ronaldo is no more a winger but still very much wide forward. Only rarely is he thrown as out and out striker and it doesn't work from what I have seen.
On Messi playing in last year's RM team, see, arguments from both sides can go either way and it is hypothetical in the end so no point stretching it further
That's fair enough. The only thing I'd add is that context for me includes their overall performance, or "mythical unquantifiable things" as you might put it. Comparing players on output alone is nonsense, even if there's a big difference in the numbers.
The strange thing is you seem to think that "Ronaldo haters" think that way. At some point you'll take a step back and see how warped that mindset was.
Plenty of people still think Bergkamp was better than Henry and once upon a time that wasn't considered a laughable point of view because stats did not dominate discussion in the same way...in fact they barely even entered it. Similarly Ronaldinho and Henry played in more or less the same position but Ronaldinho was widely considered the better player even though Henry's stats were always better.
Goals have always been important but they weren't seen as a way to "win" an argument. I think it's mainly due to the fact that the two defining players of this generation also happen to be the two best goalscorers, and people mistake correlation with causation in some way, but the wealth of statistical information available to the public now is definitely a part of it too.
Last edited:
This is so true, he put a couple of goals passed Bayern when they were already winning. Bale set him up for his 15th record breaking goal all Ronaldo had to do was keep up with Bale to get the tap in.
His FK's were all over the place it was a case of 3rd time lucky with his FK goal, he was so desperate he had to put one under the wall because none of them got over the wall.
In the final he was a disaster, Di Maria and Modric carried him for the whole match, his most important goal was against Dortmund which made the difference between Madrid going to the semi-final. In the semi final and final he was almost non existent in the matches.
The whole team is built around getting service to Ronaldo in the final third, it definitely works for them but Ronaldo gets way too much praise for being the most important player of Real Madrid. If u ask me over the whole season i thought DI Maria was their best player, he was consistently putting top performances in over 90 minutes being played out of position as a CM.
I only hate Ronaldo because his fan boys drive my head crazy, only looking at stats and not analysing a player on over all performances. I hate when people compare him to Messi because it's not even close Messi is way ahead as a footballer and always has been.
I can credit Ronaldo for having some of the best finishing i have ever seen he is an elite goal scorer. His over all game just lacks compared to Messi and it seems to be an American thing now hitting the European scene of stats this and stats that.
Yeah, that reason being that a player with a skill set such as Messi's is wasted on the wings.
The problem with not looking at stats is that football discussion becomes a matter of opinions based on subjective opinions based on what one values more in a football player. And such conversations usually boil down to who shouts the loudest, or can/not be arsed.
Football discussions are meant to be fun and engaging, not informative and precise. Right? Somewhere down the line that seems to have been lost.
Which is another way of saying he won't be as effective on wings, which was the original point.
Isn't this the reason the club got rid of Zlatan for Villa - so Messi could play in his preferred role?
Not looking at stats is incorrect and no one will suggest that. But looking beyond stats is also important and is what makes the discussion more interesting and wholesome (if done correctly). Otherwise it just becomes a simplified stat-off to "win". There's a lot about football that is subjective and that can't just be put into stats, and that's great. That's why I watch 90 minutes and not just the goals or highlight show.
Villa played wide really well for barca.
The reason messi played centrally was because he got to the level where he was simply too good to play out wide. He needed to be on the ball more because he was capable of influencing the game much more than a wide forward could. It was a brilliant decision by guardiola which led to the false no. 9 role which worked incredibly.
At their best Messi is better, but for past 1-2 seasons or so I have seen Messi played too many "poor" games to agree with that.
I just hate it when the Messi fanbois make idiotic comments like that and think they are justified in doing so.
Over their careers so far there's been as many seasons where Ronaldo was better as the other way round, and its undeniable that Ronaldo is currently the better player
- Status