Give him the Nobel prize already I say. Such humanitarian.
Cristiano Ronaldo
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It's not that Ronaldo doesn't play well on big matches. 2 goals in UCL finals (one completely pointless in a match when he was supposed to not even play because of the injury), 13 goals in El Classico matches, many goals in semi finals of UCL, on England he generally scored against the top teams. The great player who doesn't perform on big matches is so 2007.
Probably not the thread for it but perhaps controversially I'd have Xavi and Iniesta above Zidane. They've got the big game ability that Zidane had and are both more consistent (Xavi especially) over the season which I think Zidane had a problem with.
I dont think we have seen another player who could perform as well as zidane in big matches and those two are a level below him(in that regard) imo.
Some of the posts in her are a joke really. So a player and man who we have never heard anything bad about off the pitch (in fact all we hear are good things) never heard any player or manager say anything bad about him (again only positive). Is in no way a dirty or malicious player. Yet because he celebrates his goals he's a ego maniac?
Look no further than our very own king Eric for someone who wasn't only an ego manic but also a cnut of the highest order and the opposite of Ronaldo who is a clear model professional.
Look no further than our very own king Eric for someone who wasn't only an ego manic but also a cnut of the highest order and the opposite of Ronaldo who is a clear model professional.
And played on better team (for both the team and the country), always on the same system. Ayway, Ronaldo has been better than all of them, if he continues like this probbaly only 5 players or so will be remembered as better than him.
Agree!!
Scoring in a big game doesn't equal to dominating. Di Maria for example didn't score in the CL final last week, but dominated the game much more than Ronaldo usually does. Also Ronaldo scored int he CL final for us, but hardly dominated the game (in fact, we almost lost because of his missed pen).
Eh? Zidane was no slouch in them so I'd never criticise that part of his game but I don't see how Iniesta or Xavi are a level below. They've both been completely dominant in Champions League, World Cup and Euro finals, with a goal and a few MOTM awards thrown in. Not as flashy as Zidane, well Xavi anyway, but at their peaks their level never dropped no matter what the stage was. I think they suffer a bit because they play in the same team as Messi, but once they retire I'm sure they'll be ranked alongside/above Zidane.
They're big reasons why the teams and systems are so good, but yeah I pretty much agree.
Who do you consider to be a better player out of xavi and iniesta and who do you consider to be more important? Iniesta had his best or one of his best seasons statistically last year but what very bad vs psg and Bayern munich. Imo xavi is better and more important and i think both barca and spain have declined at the same time he has. They were not as convincing at euro 2012 as the last two tournaments. Without xavi, barca and spain would still be good but would be much more direct and would not have been almost invincible like they were. I think some people think iniesta is better because he is more forward going and gets more goals and very important goals but it is xavi giving him the platform to do it in a similar to the way scholes did for united. Its similar to how some people think gerrard is better than scholes because gerrard has more "moments" while xavi and scholes will be quietly going about their job and giving the more attacking players the platform to thrive on. Like Neville said about scholes, I would say xavi was the one to glue it all together.
Please explain?
Im trying to remember anything where Eric was as you describe, be interested to hear what makes you think this.
Has to be the kung-fu kick. I don't recall Eric doing much wrong beyond that. He's French and that might sometimes rub certain people the wrong way but a cnut of the higest order...for kicking a hooligan?
I can't pick between Xavi and Iniesta, I find both equally world class / second to none! Also Xavi was at his peak in 2008 and 2010, while Iniesta was still only 24/26. Then when Iniesta was 28 in 2012 for me he had a better tournament than Xavi, but anyway as I said, both out of this world.
I do agree to a certain extent but its very hard to categorise the best players.
Are they they best in the fans eyes or the managers eyes?
You ask any manager who he'd rather have between Iniesta and Ronaldo and my money would be on the lot picking Ronaldo. He is simply a managers wet dream. His goals are what get the results at the end of the day.
Its simple really. Owners want results, managers want players with goals, Ronaldo gets a lot of goals. That is why some would argue he is the best in the world atm.
However us as fans love watching great players who play the game beautifully, like Iniesta. He may not be a goal machine like Ronaldo but he is very good in high pressure matches such as world cup finals, champions league finals and what not. Iniesta is so good though. His goalscoring record isn't anything to write home about mind. However everyone knows how wonderful his passing, dribbling, vision, touch etc I don't need to go into it.
Verdict for me is Ronaldo. Football is getting more and more business like. Owners have the final say. The stakes are higher these days. A goal is a massive thing. The biggest thing you can do in football is to score right?
Did I insinuate that? They are a level below as they had a better supporting cast compared to zidane while facing weaker opposition. There is a reason why most consider zidane among the GOAT for his era while xavi/iniesta will never be considered in the same way.
Nah, I said that because I wanted to make sure no one thought I was downplaying Zidane's big game ability.
I'm aware of the majority opinion on Zidane, it's just one that I don't share. I don't think Xavi/Iniesta's ability to dominate big games is any less than Zidane's, but I do think they were more consistent over the entire season so I rate them higher. Fair enough if you disagree, but I'm not sure it's fair to pretend that Zidane didn't play with world class team mates himself...
Pogue I don't need to tell you about the various off the field antics of Cantona and why he didn't play for France during his prime and why we missed him for a year.
A young Ronaldo could dominate the way Di Maria did. Yet he has evolved in the game to become a pure goal scoring monster, no more eye-catching tricks but everything he did point to final scoreline and end products. Its a matter of choice really, but he did it the way no one else could ever match (well except Messi).
Also remember he was injured, he did have several dominating performances in El Classico, and the famous hat trick against Sweden last year.
Am not arguing that at all, just think zidane was more of a leader on the pitch and gave more and got more out of his team when they needed him. He did play with world class team mates but as a team/sytem guardiola's barcelona is the best ever, up there with milan of 80s/90s. Add that to the quality of football not being what it once was and I can see why its being easier for spain to dominate to such an extent.
Because he kicked a racist in the chest?
Its difficult to say. They are two completely different players. try and get ronaldo to do what iniesta does and he will fail. there is elements of iniestas game that are far superior to ronaldos. Iniestas ball retention is genius. His vision and passing range is genius. His perception of when to pass is incredible. Those things are much better than how ronaldo does them. Iniesta for me would be in the top 20. People underestimate him. he is a genius of a player and has had a huge influence of the barca success
i agree. i would have iniesta over zidane. maybe not xavi, but certainly iniesta.
Yes that is part of it every player gets insulted constantly I've heard people say all sorts of stuff to to players even their own doesn't excuse what he did which was completely inexcusable.
But the constant getting in trouble with any and everyone throughout his career is more of a reason why he's a cnut. Just read through his career and you would know. It's all there in his Wikipedia page.
Even just the other day he got arrested for assaulting someone.
This hasn't ever been a criteria. Ben Amos can do things that neither of them can't.
Iniesta on top 20? Personally I think that he would probably make a top 50 and definitely top 100 of all time. I also rate Xavi significantly higher than him and think that Xavi was way more important in Barca and Spain's system than him. However Iniesta was great too and scored those 2 big goals which results on a UCL and a World Cup win.
It is bit over the top to call Eric cnut of highest order. He probably overreacted that day but he was one of those who wears heart on sleeves and we couldn't have expected him to avoid that moronic Palace fan. I do get the point though which is being made in comparison to Ronaldo.
btw, anyone thinks that Ronaldo would have received same criticism from United fans had he still been our player and reached same personal heights he has after moving to Madrid? Maybe don't answer. Everyone knows the truth
Football fan mentality.
btw, anyone thinks that Ronaldo would have received same criticism from United fans had he still been our player and reached same personal heights he has after moving to Madrid? Maybe don't answer. Everyone knows the truth
Football fan mentality.I think out of barcas three main players messi, xavi and iniesta that it is iniesta that they could afford to replace with a lesser player like say silva or whoever and still be very similar to how they were before. I don't think any player could replace xavi. With the system barca use he almost guarantees you the majority of the possession and that is barcas main weapon as it protects the defence, creates chances, tires out the opposition etc. As crazy as it sounds as for me he is the 4th best player of the last 5 or 6 years, I think he gets more credit than he deserves at times. People say he had a good 2010 whereas until the world cup he was injured and not playing at his best for barca but people just ignored that. Ronaldo was good in the semis vs Bayern too as he tracked in the first leg a lot and played a good pass to coentrao to set up benzema when Bayern where on top. There has been plenty of games like vs Chelsea and atletico this year where iniesta has either not been at his best or just poor.
Part of the reason iniesta is not held in such high regard, is because at barca they dont do flash. tricks, step overs, flicks are all not allowed. What they teach is to retain the ball and pass with perfection. even messi never does step overs. Iniestas ball retention is unbelievable and its little things like that make the difference.
What is the criteria for the top ten players? If you are going by goals, ronaldo wins, trophies, iniesta wins, influence on games overall its kind of equal. Iniesta may not score the goals, but he sets them up.
We all like excuses, but believe me, Ronaldo is not the only injured player playing games. Just an example: Iniesta was out injured a whole month in April/May 2010, so just before the world cup he missed a whole month of playing time in the season end. He then had to get taken off in Spain's first game in the WC 2010 because of injury. In addition he wasn't in a good state mentally at all because of the death of the Espanyol player who he was close to. He then missed Spain's 2nd game in the WC due to injury, but returned for the 3rd, scored in that same game and from then on played well in the rest of the tournament culminating in his WC winning goal.
I am sure there are other examples as well of players dominating games while not being 100 %.
All part of your post is true except this one. Same can be said otherwise and then one can list aspects of game where Ronaldo is better at. Yes arguably Iniesta can be in top 20 of all time and is definitely underrated. I think Barca suffer more in his absence than Messi's. That said, everything considered, he will not go down as greater player than Ronaldo.
This comparison shouldn't even be made in first place because both perform very different roles and I have always thought that instead of talking about 'bests of all time' fans should rather discuss, best GK of all time, best CB of all time, best playmaker of all time, best striker of all time etc etc.
Yeah, he was actually injured in the 2009 Champions League final and was told it was too risky for him to shoot, yet he still outplayed most people on the pitch. I actually agree with RedRonaldo on Cristiano vs Iniesta but don't think the injury thing is overly relevant.
Perfectly agree. Xavi was one of a kind, probably a Pirlo or a Scholes at his best would have been able to replace him relatively well, but still I guess that their system would have suffered. On theother hand, I think that while important replacing Iniesta is more easy.
It isn't also a coincidence (though not the only factor) that Barca's decline started at the same time when Xavi started declining. He was the main reason why they made other top teams having less than 30% of the ball.
That's not the only thing he has done though go do some research. The guy has spat at fans, punched former team mates, caused many dress room busts etcIt is bit over the top to call Eric cnut of highest order. He probably overreacted that day but he was one of those who wears heart on sleeves and we couldn't have expected him to avoid that moronic Palace fan. I do get the point though which is being made in comparison to Ronaldo.
btw, anyone thinks that Ronaldo would have received same criticism from United fans had he still been our player and reached same personal heights he has after moving to Madrid? Maybe don't answer. Everyone knows the truth
Which is a big reason he never really had an international career.
I don't think it is an excuse at all. He played way better before the injury, he has been missing alot of games lately and this is the first match he started for a while, he hasn't even been able to complete a full training session days before the match.
Another way of looking at it, he has always been the type of player which rely on sheer pace, strength and athletics, injury normally hit harder for this type of player when performing on the pitch.
Funny you say this. Both Iniesta and Silva started in Spain's defeat against Switzerland in 2010. Del Bosque knew it wasn't working and he had to change things immediately. He decided that playing with both Silva and Iniesta was not working and was also too narrow, so instead of sacrificing an unfit and injured Iniesta who had missed a month of the season end due to injury, he actually sacrificed Silva. Silva didn't play again at all in that tournament apart from last 5 minutes against Germany in the semis. So as good as Silva is, Del Bosque didn't even replace an injured Iniesta by him, let alone an Iniesta in top form. You are criminally underrating Iniesta. There was a poll on Marca (yes Marca, a Madrid based paper) some weeks ago where they could choose their world cup squad and Iniesta got most of the votes despite having an average season for his standard.
The difference with the likes of Cantona is that it wasn't contrived... what makes Ronaldo's celebration particularly cringeworthy is that it was pretty obvious is was planned and, mainly, to make sure Ronaldo ended up in all the pictures.....
Brandbuilding
He's still quite good at football mind.
Brandbuilding
He's still quite good at football mind.
That might be true, but I gave you the more severe Iniesta example as well. Players have to play through injuries at times.
As a Madrid fan I feared xavi more than iniesta. I remember before casillas saying before a classico that if he could have one barca player miss the match he would chose xavi as he is the engine of the team. He has been the best player on the pitch in so many classicos. In 09/10 when they beat us 2-0 at the bernebeu he was brilliant and set up both goals as well as giving away the ball very rarely and controlling the midfield. Most papers voted him as the second best player in the league that year behind messi and over Ronaldo who had a good season also.
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