Cop in America doing a bad job, again

[ivaldo]

I'm telling how it see it, I don't care if that gets you in your feelings.

You guys don't even really engage no more, you just argue, defend, explain away, and ignore... You're here to talk not to listen. It is what it is... I'm wasting my time.

And you can gtfoh with that persecution complex boo hoo. As someone said earlier "You bring it on yourselves"

To be fair, that's exactly what you're doing.

None of the officers have condoned the shooting. Clearly they all think it's abhorrent. Their issues comes from your decision to seemingly blame the incident on the police arresting a clearly inebriated, unresponsive man who has driven his car into Wendys and blocked the drive thru. This procedure isn't what has led to the shooting and you know it. The bloke was in a state of mind where he thinks this is acceptable behaviour. His decision to resist arrest, take the officers taser and then fire it at the officers demonstrates his inability to act rationally.

I have no idea why you feel compelled to find fault with absolutely everything they say and do. It's not as if you haven't got enough ammo from their actual feck ups, that you have to try and create more. Is there a discussion to be had as to whether someone drinking heavily, driving to Wendy's and passing out with the engine running blocking a drive thru an arrestable offence? Perhaps. But the officer hasn't done anything wrong up until that point. There was no obvious risk of escalation; they were just following procedure to arrest someone would had more than likely put other people's lives at risk when driving while under the influence.

What followed was inexcusable.

 

[ivaldo]

The officers on the caf are a perfect example of the many institutional problems at the heart of western police forces. Nice enough guys but they'll defend the most awful shit in order to protect the institution of the policing overall.

They are basically like the average millwall supporter.

Did they defend the officer firing?

 

[Zlatan 7]

Who actually said that the cops should have let him off? Just in case we end up going around in circles for pages over a point that nobody made. Curious as I don't recall seeing it...

To be fair I’ve seen @villain suggest he could have been given a ride home I think, and also someone suggesting just taking his keys and sending him on his way.

theres a lot of grief in this thread I think with the big mix of uk and USA police at the moment and they are nothing alike.

the internet as allowed to have debated across continents, no wonders there disagreements on topics regarding the same thing but at the same time totally different.

 

[afrocentricity]

To be fair, that's exactly what you're doing.

None of the officers have condoned the shooting. Clearly they all think it's abhorrent. Their issues comes from your decision to seemingly blame the incident on the police arresting a clearly inebriated, unresponsive man who has driven his car into Wendys and blocked the drive thru. This procedure isn't what has led to the shooting and you know it. The bloke was in a state of mind where he thinks this is acceptable behaviour. His decision to resist arrest, take the officers taser and then fire it at the officers demonstrates his inability to act rationally.

I have no idea why you feel compelled to find fault with absolutely everything they say and do. It's not as if you haven't got enough ammo from their actual feck ups, that you have to try and create more. Is there a discussion to be had as to whether someone drinking heavily, driving to Wendy's and passing out with the engine running blocking a drive thru an arrestable offence? Perhaps. But the officer hasn't done anything wrong up until that point. There was no obvious risk of escalation; they were just following procedure to arrest someone would had more than likely put other people's lives at risk when driving while under the influence.

What followed was inexcusable.

Oh it's you again...

 

[villain]

To be fair I’ve seen @villain suggest he could have been given a ride home I think, and also someone suggesting just taking his keys and sending him on his way.

theres a lot of grief in this thread I think with the big mix of uk and USA police at the moment and they are nothing alike.

the internet as allowed to have debated across continents, no wonders there disagreements on topics regarding the same thing but at the same time totally different.

I also mentioned giving him a warning or a fine & getting him home safely, no mention of him getting off 'free'.

 

[ivaldo]

Oh it's you again...

Perfect demonstration right here.

 

[afrocentricity]

To be fair I’ve seen @villain suggest he could have been given a ride home I think, and also someone suggesting just taking his keys and sending him on his way.

@villain just cleared up her post, and it was me that said write him up, take his keys, let him sleep it off and process him when he comes for his keys. To which @choiboyx012 said nope.... and that was that.

2 posts do not create a narrative (an incorrect one at that looking at the actual posts). Are their anymore?

Perfect demonstration right here.

I've done this with you before, I'm not in the mood for it.

 

[Zlatan 7]

I also mentioned giving him a warning or a fine & getting him home safely, no mention of him getting off 'free'.

Fair enough. Sorry to get it wrong, I just remember reading it and thinking even here in uk, there’s no chance the police would catch me in my car, drunk, engine running and just give me a lift home with a warning, I just can’t see that happening and I wouldn’t expect it to tbh.

from the outside reading the last few pages looking in I see a massive hate towards the police and look to blame and hate for anything, they can’t do right basically. Nobody in this thread as been defending the shooting at all, only what led up to the shooting, and from what I’ve read an arrest was more than warranted. It seems sillyfor people to want to argueover something so debatable when there is so much actually disgusting stuff going on.

 

[ivaldo]

I've done this with you before, I'm not in the mood for it.

You don't seem to be in the mood to discuss anything with anyone who doesn't agree with everything you say. Kind of like what you're accusing the coppers of doing...

 

[Zlatan 7]

@villain just cleared up her post, and it was me that said write him up, take his keys, let him sleep it off and process him when he comes for his keys. To which @choiboyx012 said nope.... and that was that.

2 posts do not create a narrative (an incorrect one at that looking at the actual posts). Are their anymore?

ok, it’s just what I’ve taken from reading the thread, it seems that the actual arrest was being questioned and the police ‘attacked’ for it when they should have done something deifferently.
Again, just to clarify, nothing to do with the shooting

 

[Cassidy]

Fair enough. Sorry to get it wrong, I just remember reading it and thinking even here in uk, there’s no chance the police would catch me in my car, drunk, engine running and just give me a lift home with a warning, I just can’t see that happening and I wouldn’t expect it to tbh.

from the outside reading the last few pages looking in I see a massive hate towards the police and look to blame and hate for anything, they can’t do right basically. Nobody in this thread as been defending the shooting at all, only what led up to the shooting, and from what I’ve read an arrest was more than warranted. It seems sillyfor people to want to argueover something so debatable when there is so much actually disgusting stuff going on.

A man is dead...
I think it makes sense to think about how/if policing works and how/if it could be done better

 

[Organic Potatoes]

ok, it’s just what I’ve taken from reading the thread, it seems that the actual arrest was being questioned and the police ‘attacked’ for it when they should have done something deifferently.
Again, just to clarify, nothing to do with the shooting

You’re not entirely wrong. We’ve been going in circles lately about the arrest when that isn’t even the issue, and then some conflating defending the arrest with defending the shooting. @ivaldo summarized this well about 10 posts up.

 

[Zlatan 7]

A man is dead...
I think it makes sense to think about how/if policing works and how/if it could be done better

Umm I know.
But i was replying to the debate That hasn’t been about his death, it’s been about him being arrested for being drunk in a car.
Unless you’re advocating for letting people go and giving them lifts home and fines instead of arrests to save deaths, then that’s fair.

 

[Zlatan 7]

You’re not entirely wrong. We’ve been going in circles lately about the arrest when that isn’t even the issue, and then some conflating defending the arrest with defending the shooting. @ivaldo summarized this well about 10 posts up.

I agree, and with ivaldos post

 

[afrocentricity]

Yesterday I got pissed off at the way people were discussing the incident, as if it resulted in someone getting what they deserved due to what had occurred and police procedure. I will not be apologizing for that. I don't care how it's perceived...

What they got was dead, and as a black man that empathises with the American black man due to having shared experiences amongst the obvious, it depresses me that this is so normalized that barely anybody even stops to think whether we can do things differently, that nobody gets emotive apart from me and a few others. In fact, people get incredulous when I get emotive, as if it's not a natural reaction for someone like me?

I barely got involved in the discussion about police procedure ffs...

You don't seem to be in the mood to discuss anything with anyone who doesn't agree with everything you say. Kind of like what you're accusing the coppers of doing...

Miss me with your shit today bruv....

 

[Cassidy]

Umm I know.
But i was replying to the debate That hasn’t been about his death, it’s been about him being arrested for being drunk in a car.
Unless you’re advocating for letting people go and giving them lifts home and fines instead of arrests to save deaths, then that’s fair.

Yes I think it makes sense in that situation to not arrest. Saying that Im not a police officer so I may be missing things.

Seems to me taking someone home and confiscating their car and license and then summoning them to court could be a way to go.

Like @afrocentricity I feel the notion that he got what he deserved isn’t a good one. No one deserves to die for that

I do empathise that at times officers are put in difficult positions. So I feel descalation as much as possible ought to be the way but it doesnt seem like it is to me

 

[ivaldo]

@afrocentricity cool. I tried. Why did I ever think you'd practice what you preach and open yourself up to beliefs that don't comprehensively agree with yours? Have a good day fella.

 

[Zlatan 7]

Yesterday I got pissed off at the way people were discussing the incident, as if it resulted in someone getting what they deserved due to what had occurred and police procedure. I will not be apologizing for that. I don't care how it's perceived...

What they got was dead, and as a black man that empathises with the American black man due to having shared experiences amongst the obvious, it depresses me that this is so normalized that barely anybody even stops to think whether we can do things differently, that nobody gets emotive apart from me and a few others. In fact, people get incredulous when I get emotive, as if it's not a natural reaction for someone like me?

I barely got involved in the discussion about police procedure ffs...


Miss me with your shit today bruv....

I get this post mate and can see how these events can stir up feeling of similar incidents you or maybe others you know have been in.
I think debating on the internet is awfull as one can’t get tone across in any manner to show empathy, but only by using written words, which is hard to show when defending something maybe. I don’t know. But I definitely get the emotive part.

take care

 

[villain]

Fair enough. Sorry to get it wrong, I just remember reading it and thinking even here in uk, there’s no chance the police would catch me in my car, drunk, engine running and just give me a lift home with a warning, I just can’t see that happening and I wouldn’t expect it to tbh.

from the outside reading the last few pages looking in I see a massive hate towards the police and look to blame and hate for anything, they can’t do right basically. Nobody in this thread as been defending the shooting at all, only what led up to the shooting, and from what I’ve read an arrest was more than warranted. It seems sillyfor people to want to argueover something so debatable when there is so much actually disgusting stuff going on.

We've been dehumanised as a 'rent-a-mob' (an actual quote from one of the coppers in here) because we dared question whether policing could be done differently or nuance can be shown, and when we do - the criticism has been described "rubbish", "ridiculous" & "exhausting". Of course people are going to get defensive, but feck it.
Continuing to do the same thing and expect different results has worked well in the past right?

Like I said in my post on the previous page - the killing isn't the most damaging part about the relationship between the police & the community it serves, the trauma, fear & paranoia it leaves on those who have experiences with them is.
That is what I believe led to Rayshard reacting when the handcuffs were placed on him, which ultimately led to his death - and that is what I believe led to George Floyd not being met with care & due diligence, when he expressed that he couldn't breathe - but those don't tell the whole story. There are thousands, possibly millions more who have encounters with the police that aren't positive, but their voice isn't heard, and that relationship doesn't get repaired.

This is what needs to be fixed.

 

[afrocentricity]

@afrocentricity cool. I tried. Why did I ever think you'd practice what you preach and open yourself up to beliefs that don't comprehensively agree with yours? Have a good day fella.

I get this post mate and can see how these events can stir up feeling of similar incidents you or maybe others you know have been in.
I think debating on the internet is awfull as one can’t get tone across in any manner to show empathy, but only by using written words, which is hard to show when defending something maybe. I don’t know. But I definitely get the emotive part.

take care

 

[Zlatan 7]

Yes I think it makes sense in that situation to not arrest. Saying that Im not a police officer so I may be missing things.

Seems to me taking someone home and confiscating their car and license and then summoning them to court could be a way to go.

I agree that that could be a way moving forward, totally. From what I gathered here by members of the police is that is not what currently happens. That’s all

Im not playing down what happened after that at all

 

[ivaldo]

@afrocentricity

"You guys don't even really engage no more, you just argue, defend, explain away, and ignore"

 

[Zlatan 7]

We've been dehumanised as a 'rent-a-mob' (an actual quote from one of the coppers in here) because we dared question whether policing could be done differently or nuance can be shown, and when we do - the criticism has been described "rubbish", "ridiculous" & "exhausting". Of course people are going to get defensive, but feck it.
Continuing to do the same thing and expect different results has worked well in the past right?

Like I said in my post on the previous page - the killing isn't the most damaging part about the relationship between the police & the community it serves, the trauma, fear & paranoia it leaves on those who have experiences with them is.
That is what I believe led to Rayshard reacting when the handcuffs were placed on him, which ultimately led to his death - and that is what I believe led to George Floyd not being met with care & due diligence, when he expressed that he couldn't breathe - but those don't tell the whole story. There are thousands, possibly millions more who have encounters with the police that aren't positive, but their voice isn't heard, and that relationship doesn't get repaired.

This is what needs to be fixed.

I hear you

 

[caid]

I’ve long since voiced that in my opinion - one of the worst aspects about policing is the trauma & PTSD it has on the communities they ‘serve’.
Of course the killings are terrible and more often than not shouldn’t happen - but they don’t happen in isolation - the reactions & defensiveness of black people doesn’t happen out of nowhere or for no reason.

The above video doesn’t look like much, and could easily be overlooked - but it’s a heartbreaking reminder of what the police represent to a lot of black people. An institution to fear, avoid and hide from.
That kid doesn’t look older than about 12, (and actually that video gave me flashbacks of the Tamir Rice killing) yet he’s pushed into survival mode at the sight of a cop car - imagine what that does to the psyche of someone that young?
Add onto the fact that living in black skin means constantly being aware & conscious of your race in every space you enter - it’s traumatic.

I don’t like to focus on the killings personally, it’s the everyday encounters that worry me the most - kids like that who fear the very people who are supposed to protect them, the reports against police officers’ inappropriate behaviour that never goes anywhere. It’s the insults & daily power trips. It’s the ‘you fit the description’ stops - the presumption of guilt, criminality followed by dehumanisation. It’s the embarrassment. It’s the fact the feeling that you can’t escape this reality.

These situations don't make headlines, they're not statistics that are entered into a database that can be analysed easily - it's easy to dismiss them because they aren't visible to anyone who doesn't have to deal with situations, and if you try and talk about it you'll probably sound paranoid or irrational.



That looks long to read, but it’s mostly dialogue from a 2015 encounter between a black man & the police, it's a small glimpse of the type of thing i'm talking about

This part particularly

Some posters are better than others, on both sides. Some are best ignored really. No point wasting time on them when posters like yourself or leroy have valuable, thoughtful posts worth discussing

 

[fergieisold]

This is precisely what I talk about when I say "if you try and talk about it you'll probably sound paranoid or irrational" - this perspective can't be explained by those who don't have to live with it. It's trauma, black people are living with trauma when it comes to the police.

The police didn't do anything out of the ordinary - I didn't suggest that they did - it's the fact he knew, in that moment - his innocence was hanging on the word of someone else. There's a long history of people who are jailed for crimes they don't commit, falsely arrested, put in jail awaiting a trial date that doesn't come for months etc. If he went down the police station, he wasn't sure when he would leave.
Beyond that, peoples memories are bad - the victim of the robbery could've misremembered and said it was him - now his life is ruined, that easily.
-edit: the 'description' is often when you are black and of a similar build - which is why we saw that woman in Central Park a few weeks ago screaming into the phone that a 'BLACK man was threatening her life' she knew that was the only description that mattered.

Luckily for him, none of that occurred, but now he has to live with that experience, his relationship with the police wouldn't have improved, his day was ruined and it's a memory that will last with him. He could've easily been seen by someone he knows or works with, passerby's will see a black man surrounded by white cops and will assume he's a criminal - further stereotypes are now being reinforced. It's a cycle that doesn't end well.

There has to be a better way.

The innocence files on Netflix is good for examples of this kind of thing. Some of them are a tough watch because there are some of the worst examples of injustice you can imagine. Not everybody featured is black...but they are predominantly not white men that's for sure!

 

[WI_Red]

And the police in here have criticised the shooting but are defending the initial arrest but you and the other guy conveniently ignored that

A few pages back I literally said this:

Was the guy drunk and stupid. Yes. Should he have gone to prison for striking the police officer and taking his taser? Yes. Should he have been shot in the back while running away? If your answer is yes I worry about you.

At no point have I said he should not be arrested nor called out anyone for agreeing the shooting was valid. My point the entire time has been that the callousness with which we discuss deadly shootings and the whataboutism and tribalism we have devolved into as a society in my country will lead to a place where nothing is fixed.

 

[villain]

Some posters are better than others, on both sides. Some are best ignored really. No point wasting time on them when posters like yourself or leroy have valuable, thoughtful posts worth discussing

Thank you

The innocence files on Netflix is good for examples of this kind of thing. Some of them are a tough watch because there are some of the worst examples of injustice you can imagine. Not everybody featured is black...but they are predominantly not white men that's for sure!

Yep the innocence files is a great watch - incredibly frustrating too.
I'd recommend:
- When they see us
- The 13th
- Time: the kalief browder story


All on Netflix too, but tbh there's tons of stuff to read/watch about this thing.

 

[arnie_ni]

Yesterday I got pissed off at the way people were discussing the incident, as if it resulted in someone getting what they deserved due to what had occurred and police procedure. I will not be apologizing for that. I don't care how it's perceived...

What they got was dead, and as a black man that empathises with the American black man due to having shared experiences amongst the obvious, it depresses me that this is so normalized that barely anybody even stops to think whether we can do things differently, that nobody gets emotive apart from me and a few others. In fact, people get incredulous when I get emotive, as if it's not a natural reaction for someone like me?

I barely got involved in the discussion about police procedure ffs...


Miss me with your shit today bruv....

Not one person has said he got what he deserved. Youve made that up in your mind

 

[afrocentricity]

Not one person has said he got what he deserved. Youve made that up in your mind

Are you seriously arguing cops should just ignore all crime?

Anyway....
Back to the topic:
Camden: the US city that sacked its police and started again | Free to read.

Now other US cities are looking to Camden, which dissolved its police department in 2013 and rebuilt it from the ground up, as an example of how they can rethink crime and punishment.

An interesting read...

 

[choiboyx012]

A man is dead...
I think it makes sense to think about how/if policing works and how/if it could be done better

This specific incident was a bizarre anomaly. It doesn’t mean that police procedure and law regarding DUI enforcement doesn’t work and needs to be revamped. Maybe it’s not perfect, but it is the way it is, probably to err on the side of safety even if it’s after the fact where no diving was observed.

for those saying it’s better to let him sleep it off or let him uber home etc. I personally wouldn’t mind that IF I was not liable for anything that happens to him afterwards. As it stands the department can get sued and officers can get in trouble if he hurts himself or others due to his intoxication.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Interesting RCMP have jurisdiction on Indian reservations, if that's where that is. Do Canada even have Indian reservations? In America, they usually have their own tribal law enforcement.

We do, and while the RCMP have jurisdiction they're not often welcome and tend to stay away.

 

[Silva]

This specific incident was a bizarre anomaly

was it though, was it really that different to the thousands of other drunks who fight the police every weekend almost everywhere

 

[caid]

This specific incident was a bizarre anomaly. It doesn’t mean that police procedure and law regarding DUI enforcement doesn’t work and needs to be revamped. Maybe it’s not perfect, but it is the way it is, probably to err on the side of safety even if it’s after the fact where no diving was observed.

for those saying it’s better to let him sleep it off or let him uber home etc. I personally wouldn’t mind that IF I was not liable for anything that happens to him afterwards. As it stands the department can get sued and officers can get in trouble if he hurts himself or others due to his intoxication.

It doesn't really seem like it is an anomaly. You can kind of understand why all of them reacted the way they did.
He should have been arrested imo based on reports of what happened before the filming started but you shouldn't be liable if he was let off with a warning. Liability is probably another unhelpful societal quirk that should be looked at.

 

[Cloud7]

Liability is probably another unhelpful societal quirk that should be looked at.

Agree with this. Liability and by extension litigation, both in my opinion make the world an overall worse place, especially these days where litigation culture is such a huge thing.

 

[choiboyx012]

was it though, was it really that different to the thousands of other drunks who fight the police every weekend almost everywhere

Yes it was. It was unusual because he was, although obviously drunk, very cooperative and calm. It was only when he was ultimately being arrested that he escalated it into a full blown fight. And then disarming an officer’s taser, and while running away turning towards the officer and using the weapon on him, ending up with getting shot. I’ve never seen nor heard anything like it.
I’ve been to many drunk calls and if the person is aggressive, they’re usually aggressive from the very start of contact. So you know to prepare to get physical and put hands and cuffs on if need be, or call for backup units if you feel he’s bigger/stronger. Some drunks being arrested might resist or start kicking and screaming, but none in my experience have managed to disarm an officer and use it on him. That’s why i say it’s an anomaly.

 

[Silva]

I’ve never seen nor heard anything like it.

it does, situations go from 0-100 all the time and people also steal their guns and their battons and so on, sometimes the police gets them back without killing anyone, sometimes they kill them in a stand off, sometimes they kill them needlessly like in this case, there are hundreds of videos of american police in fights in this thread, and on youtube, liveleak etc. idk what your experience is but i assume you've mostly been called after the drunk is belligerent, i suppose that's the difference but it's not a real one

 

[choiboyx012]

it does, situations go from 0-100 all the time and people also steal their guns and their battons and so on, sometimes the police gets them back without killing anyone, sometimes they kill them in a stand off, sometimes they kill them needlessly like in this case, there are hundreds of videos of american police in fights in this thread, and on youtube, liveleak etc. idk what your experience is but i assume you've mostly been called after the drunk is belligerent, i suppose that's the difference but it's not a real one

Yea i haven’t worked nights in several years but we get public intoxication calls and several DUIs nightly.
Usually when someone is aggressive (drunk or not) and you think he’s not going to go with the program, it’s better to be safe and call in a backup unit in case it turns into a fight. Brooks showed no indication of being aggressive/combative so maybe the officers didn’t need help. Or they’re bare-bones running short of officers on the shift. Maybe if he was showing verbal or physical cues of being resistive, they would’ve called for a backup unit. Then if Brooks still decided to fight, the 3to4 officers stood a better chance of subduing Brooks into custody without further incident.

 

[Suedesi]

The car didn't drive itself to Wendy's and block the parking lot.

"Block the parking lot".

 

[mu4c_20le]

"Block the parking lot".

Blocked drive thru at wendys equals hungry customers. Hungry customers equals road rage, which leads to violence, which inevitably leads to bloodshed and/or more lives lost. Cop was looking at bigger picture and should be given an award.

 

[arnie_ni]

Anyway....
Back to the topic:
Camden: the US city that sacked its police and started again | Free to read.



An interesting read...

Sorry, are you accusing me of saying he got what he deserved?

I was talking about the drink driving aspect that led to the initial arrest.