Cop in America doing a bad job, again

[TheReligion]

This right here is the problem. I'm not saying it's the polices fault, per se, just that this is where we are. One side is enraged by a history of brutality and violence done against them for centuries. The other side feels disrespected and underappreciated. The problem is that we are headed for, or have passed, the point at which these two roads can NEVER meet except through violence. To fix this one side has to humble themselves and submit to the other. In my view this needs to be the side empowered and paid, by us, to provide a service. Maybe you disagree, but can we agree that if nothing changes we are headed for a place that no one wants to go? When you see police gassing and clubbing protesters are you proud or angry? When you see unarmed black men shot are you enraged? I hope so, because we should all be. To not feel anger at what we see on TV, even if it is a small minority of interaction between police and civilians, is to admit we have lost our humanity.

When you see police officers getting murdered are you enraged or do you laugh? When you see members of the public punching, kicking and spitting at a cop are you proud or sad?

I know exactly where I stand and the fact I've made a career out of doing some pretty decent things supports the fact my moral compass isn't skewed in the slightest no matter how many people here seem to want to make out it is.

 

[TheReligion]

Did you engage with what I said? Do you ever? You get what you give...

Don't get me mixed up with other people we all have our own thoughts we aren't one hive mind in here. Read my posts and then respond to them. You're replying to me like any of what you said was relevant to me or my point.


And that's nothing to do with me as I never disputed any of it. My point is that procedure be damned, someone has lost his life and it never had to happen. But nobody is really talking about how it could have been avoided, just that it was inevitable, had to happen, etc....

So excuse me if I'm a bit pissed off right now.

I'm pretty sure you've heard my point loud and clear. You didn't like it, nor could you respond to it, so you decided to slide around the subject and complain some more. Thats fine.

 

[WI_Red]

When you see police officers getting murdered are you enraged or do you laugh? When you see members of the public punching, kicking and spitting at a cop are you proud or sad?

I know exactly where I stand and the fact I've made a career out of doing some pretty decent things supports the fact my moral compass isn't skewed in the slightest no matter how many people here seem to want to make out it is.

Damnit, this is the f-ing problem! I literally said a few posts up that I don't care if it is the police or a civilian. Of course I am not happy or laugh when a police officer dies. I am saddened and enraged.

You took my statement, and instead of addressing my words you flipped it and attacked. How can we address this if the instinct is to "whatabout" eachother.

Your post mostly makes me sad.

 

[afrocentricity]

I'm pretty sure you've heard my point loud and clear. You didn't like it, nor could you respond to it, so you decided to slide around the subject and complain some more. Thats fine.

I just told you I didn't dispute it and your doubling down, still missing my point. You my friend, are a lost cause...

 

[choiboyx012]

I won't lie listening to you guys (police) is depressing as feck. It's like you just don't get it and never will...

What is it that’s depressing you? We’re explaining these recent incidents from a police perspective. You don’t think it’s valuable to the thread to have someone actually working in the profession and has firsthand knowledge of the inner workings, protocols, training, etc? We’re obviously going to have our own biases, just like you and any posters on here. But I think I and the other LEOs have been truthful and as informative as we can, and critical when it warrants.
You don’t think we’ve engaged? I’ve tried to answer any questions raised, and explained anything that needed explaining. The only people I’ve ignored are the handful of the known trolls who don’t engage themselves and simply post some anti-cop tweet/video with a “feck all cops/acab, feckin pigs”.

 

[TheReligion]

Damnit, this is the f-ing problem! I literally said a few posts up that I don't care if it is the police or a civilian. Of course I am not happy or laugh when a police officer dies. I am saddened and enraged.

You took my statement, and instead of addressing my words you flipped it and attacked. How can we address this if the instinct is to "whatabout" eachother.

Your post mostly makes me sad.

Tbh I'm just tired at having to justify myself to groups of posters on here who deem it acceptable to call me scum, a racist, a bastard and whatever else just because of the job I do. It's as if I should apologise on behalf of all the bad cops in the world and theres an expectation I should hang my head in shame and put up with it. Sorry but I'm proud of my job and the work I, and many others, do to tackle racism, inequality, abuse and violence every single day.

That's kinda where I'm at with it now and I don't need to explain myself to anyone here.

 

[TheReligion]

What is it that’s depressing you? We’re explaining these recent incidents from a police perspective. You don’t think it’s valuable to the thread to have someone actually working in the profession and has firsthand knowledge of the inner workings, protocols, training, etc? We’re obviously going to have our own biases, just like you and any posters on here. But I think I and the other LEOs have been truthful and as informative as we can, and critical when it warrants.
You don’t think we’ve engaged? I’ve tried to answer any questions raised, and explained anything that needed explaining. The only people I’ve ignored are the handful of the known trolls who don’t engage themselves and simply post some anti-cop tweet/video with a “feck all cops/acab, feckin pigs”.

Tbh I'm pretty much done with it all now.

Happy to leave them to their echo chamber. Not worth the hassle.

 

[afrocentricity]

What is it that’s depressing you? We’re explaining these recent incidents from a police perspective. You don’t think it’s valuable to the thread to have someone actually working in the profession and has firsthand knowledge of the inner workings, protocols, training, etc? We’re obviously going to have our own biases, just like you and any posters on here. But I think I and the other LEOs have been truthful and as informative as we can, and critical when it warrants.
You don’t think we’ve engaged? I’ve tried to answer any questions raised, and explained anything that needed explaining. The only people I’ve ignored are the handful of the known trolls who don’t engage themselves and simply post some anti-cop tweet/video with a “feck all cops/acab, feckin pigs”.

What's my point? Have you read my posts? Have you seen me dispute your procedure other than to say there must be a better way and to make a suggestion that you batted away anyway? If you have nothing to say relating to what I've been discussing over the last few pages can you direct your post to someone else.

And my point about you guys not engaging and only piping up to defend, explain, etc... Is based on more than just today's conversations. I'm telling you how I see it, take it or leave it.

Tbh I'm pretty much done with it all now.

Happy to leave them to their echo chamber. Not worth the hassle.

Not to kick a man when he's seemingly down, but if my relatively mild posts (asking for empathy and/or solutions) are driving you out of this thread I wonder how you cope in your day to day job.

Excellent de-escalation skills on display, who trained you? Chris Brown? I jest...

Can't even take a bit of needle making out that the caf is against ya... It's not that deep. These are just words and conversations.

I don't hate you, I don't know you. You're posts do wind me up though, it is what it is. We should be able to speak freely in here... Take a time out if you wish but I'm not telling/asking you to feck off out the thread, but you could communicate with people in a better way though. You do come off very condescending sometimes... and personally, I don't react well to that. I bet you know my type...

 

[Ludens the Red]

This right here is the problem. I'm not saying it's the polices fault, per se, just that this is where we are. One side is enraged by a history of brutality and violence done against them for centuries. The other side feels disrespected and underappreciated. The problem is that we are headed for, or have passed, the point at which these two roads can NEVER meet except through violence. To fix this one side has to humble themselves and submit to the other. In my view this needs to be the side empowered and paid, by us, to provide a service. Maybe you disagree, but can we agree that if nothing changes we are headed for a place that no one wants to go? When you see police gassing and clubbing protesters are you proud or angry? When you see unarmed black men shot are you enraged? I hope so, because we should all be. To not feel anger at what we see on TV, even if it is a small minority of interaction between police and civilians, is to admit we have lost our humanity.

You’re right, police should be the ones to humble themselves. Hence why police in here have tried to engage and explain.
I think it’s a problem on both sides. I’ve seen talk from coppers and pro coppers online where even I question what kind of morales they hold when they seem to defend the indefensible.
But from what I’ve read in this thread I’m afraid the problem doesn’t appear to be the coppers.

There’s been an ongoing debate in this thread about fixing policing and there’s been talk about dismantling the police force and starting from scratch. I’ve tried to make the point and said this isn’t realistic and offered ideas as to how it can be improved based on improvements I’ve seen from my own force.

And it’s been met with sarcy responses, zero acknowledgement, shitting on anything I offered up and straw man arguments. And admittedly it has made me become a bit snappy in my responses.
Someone said bodyworn video is pointless and doesn’t do anything. Someone categorically stated that non white people join the police and become racist.
A few months back I tried to explain to someone black people in the U.K. were being failed by mental health services and that was partly why black men suffering from mh encountered police more than any other racial group. He basically refused to acknowledge it and it just made me think does this guy even give a shit or he just wants to blabber on about police.
There was another bloke I told that most stop and searches are based on calls from the public, he told me I was talking shit and knew nothing.

These people HATE the idea of a police force and it’s pretty clear that is why they debate in the style they do on this forum.
I think these last few pages has made that obvious. A man was clearly wrongly shot in the back by a police officer (the people who seemed to try and excuse it ironically weren’t even coppers) yet for some strange reason all we are now talking about is DUI’s/drink drive. And not because the coppers made a thing about it but because the anti police group did.

Because apparently people should no longer be arrested for drink driving, an offence that kills and injures thousands year after year should now be resolved by basically doing nothing. How many drink drive incidents have led to officers shooting people dead? This is the first I have ever seen. Yet here we are, there are people saying based on this one incident drink driving should no longer be dealt with by police and if it is they should take no action. If at this point it doesn’t become obvious that these people aren’t really looking for a reasonable discussion then it never will.

The video of the incident was posted two pages ago, yet at least four posters have continued to post deliberately incorrect information about what transpired in order to further drum home their particular narrative. You don’t need to, the officer shot the guy in the back. It’s a slam dunk. I said it a few pages back, it’s like trying to frame someone already found guilty.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Horse cop from Canada doing a bad job? Would like to know what everyone thinks of this because it's stirred up a bit of controversy here. It's a bit old (March 10th of this year) but it's an interesting altercation.

Edit: a little context on the reason for the interaction, the vehicle's plate stickers were expired (we have to renew the sticker annually up here..it's common to forget..I once forgot for two months, but can be an indicator of not having insurance).

 

[WI_Red]

You’re right, police should be the ones to humble themselves. Hence why police in here have tried to engage and explain.
I think it’s a problem on both sides. I’ve seen talk from coppers and pro coppers online where even I question what kind of morales they hold when they seem to defend the indefensible.
But from what I’ve read in this thread I’m afraid the problem doesn’t appear to be the coppers.

There’s been an ongoing debate in this thread about fixing policing and there’s been talk about dismantling the police force and starting from scratch. I’ve tried to make the point and said this isn’t realistic and offered ideas as to how it can be improved based on improvements I’ve seen from my own force.

And it’s been met with sarcy responses, zero acknowledgement, shitting on anything I offered up and straw man arguments. And admittedly it has made me become a bit snappy in my responses.
Someone said bodyworn video is pointless and doesn’t do anything. Someone categorically stated that non white people join the police and become racist.
A few months back I tried to explain to someone black people in the U.K. were being failed by mental health services and that was partly why black men suffering from mh encountered police more than any other racial group. He basically refused to acknowledge it and it just made me think does this guy even give a shit or he just wants to blabber on about police.
There was another bloke I told that most stop and searches are based on calls from the public, he told me I was talking shit and knew nothing.

These people HATE the idea of a police force and it’s pretty clear that is why they debate in the style they do on this forum.
I think these last few pages has made that obvious. A man was clearly wrongly shot in the back by a police officer (the people who seemed to try and excuse it ironically weren’t even coppers) yet for some strange reason all we are now talking about is DUI’s/drink drive. And not because the coppers made a thing about it but because the anti police group did.

Because apparently people should no longer be arrested for drink driving, an offence that kills and injures thousands year after year should now be resolved by basically doing nothing. How many drink drive incidents have led to officers shooting people dead? This is the first I have ever seen. Yet here we are, there are people saying based on this one incident drink driving should no longer be dealt with by police and if it is they should take no action. If at this point it doesn’t become obvious that these people aren’t really looking for a reasonable discussion then it never will.

The video of the incident was posted two pages ago, yet at least four posters have continued to post deliberately incorrect information about what transpired in order to further drum home their particular narrative. You don’t need to, the officer shot the guy in the back. It’s a slam dunk. I said it a few pages back, it’s like trying to frame someone already found guilty.

I have been a "lurker" on this forum for years now before finally being able to post (past job barred all social media posting). I have always appreciated the candor of the police officers on here, even when I have not agreed with what was being posted. I do not expect you or your brother/sister officers to speak for the rest of law enforcement. I believe you and @TheReligion and @choiboyx012 and @Skizzo etc. when you relay your personal experiences. There is no "but..." here, that is my honest feeling.

I have been fortunate (mostly b/c I am a white male) to never have had a bad personal experience with law enforcement. However, as a minor I saw behavior on ride alongs and other interactions as a Police Explorer that left me disgusted and not at all interested in the career. I saw blatant racism, I heard jokes and saw harassment of minorities who "did not belong" in the beach city I grew up in. I saw the running of plates of "hot girls" to see what they could find on them. Again, I was a minor on a ride along with officers who were thought to be the "good role models".

I know not all officers are like this, but can you honestly say you have never seen any of that behavior from your colleagues?

I do not know you personally, so I will call you names or pretend that I know how you perform your job. I will however say it again. We have to get to a better place. This outrage and calling for the abolishment of your profession did not come from nowhere. I do not have any answers, I just know that this path leads nowhere good.

 

[Ludens the Red]

I have been a "lurker" on this forum for years now before finally being able to post (past job barred all social media posting). I have always appreciated the candor of the police officers on here, even when I have not agreed with what was being posted. I do not expect you or your brother/sister officers to speak for the rest of law enforcement. I believe you and @TheReligion and @choiboyx012 and @Skizzo etc. when you relay your personal experiences. There is no "but..." here, that is my honest feeling.

I have been fortunate (mostly b/c I am a white male) to never have had a bad personal experience with law enforcement. However, as a minor I saw behavior on ride alongs and other interactions as a Police Explorer that left me disgusted and not at all interested in the career. I saw blatant racism, I heard jokes and saw harassment of minorities who "did not belong" in the beach city I grew up in. I saw the running of plates of "hot girls" to see what they could find on them. Again, I was a minor on a ride along with officers who were thought to be the "good role models".

I know not all officers are like this, but can you honestly say you have never seen any of that behavior from your colleagues?

I do not know you personally, so I will call you names or pretend that I know how you perform your job. I will however say it again. We have to get to a better place. This outrage and calling for the abolishment of your profession did not come from nowhere. I do not have any answers, I just know that this path leads nowhere good.

Honestly mate, I cannot sit here and lie to you just to give you a personal experience of 'but.....'. Although it should be mentioned I work in the Uk not in the US, I assume you're American. I've been in the force less than four years, had I been in twenty years or more I'd probably have a lot more 'but.....' to tell you. Just to sort of make a point, there are about 20,000 odd street officers in London, on any given day we'll deal with about half a dozen jobs, that equates to about 250,000 to 400,000 police interactions in a week and so on and so forth. How many do you remember making the news or being a big thing in any given year? As far as I'm aware I'm the only met officer on here, the odds are slim of me giving a big juicy story of witnessing an officer 'feck it up'. The most I see is incompetence and rudeness and usually you chip in and deescalate the situation and have words. Even if you're talking about inappropriate comments in a car, it just doesn't happen to the extent you heard, at most you'll get drooling over women walking about.

Even before I joined, I had literally no bad experiences of police. I'm black and grew up in area called St Raphaels (google it) it's no Kensington and Chelsea. I was stop and searched once in my entire life and that was for protesting, chucked a book at a scientology building ( I was 18)
All this isn't me saying bad shit doesn't happen, it clearly does, quite patently more so in other countries. People want change and something drastic and I am 100% in agreement that needs to happen in the States based on the evidence, I just think some of the ideas thrown about in here are either completely unrealistic or are a few screws short of calling for anarchy.
And to be fair this thread is 'cops in America doing a bad job' and I appreciate that then skews any point of view I may have but when it comes down to basic discussion like an abolishing or drink drives not being offences than the UK/US difference ceases to be an issue.

Horse cop from Canada doing a bad job? Would like to know what everyone thinks of this because it's stirred up a bit of controversy here. It's a bit old (March 10th of this year) but it's an interesting altercation.

Edit: a little context on the reason for the interaction, the vehicle's plate stickers were expired (we have to renew the sticker annually up here..it's common to forget..I once forgot for two months, but can be an indicator of not having insurance).

Basically assault by the second copper, completely unnecessary, going from 0-100 for no reason. The first copper on scene was a bit of a mess. He's there and people are coming in and out of the car wondering around. He has no control of the situation.

 

[Man of Leisure]

Horse cop from Canada doing a bad job? Would like to know what everyone thinks of this because it's stirred up a bit of controversy here. It's a bit old (March 10th of this year) but it's an interesting altercation.

Edit: a little context on the reason for the interaction, the vehicle's plate stickers were expired (we have to renew the sticker annually up here..it's common to forget..I once forgot for two months, but can be an indicator of not having insurance).

Why'd the longhair guy in the pickup get so aggressive for? The 2nd cop was a little excessive, but you gotta think the 1st cop was on his radio apprising him of the situation. The way the women were actually interfering and physically touching the cops without seemingly any punishment is surprising. And what's with all the idiots crowding in with their phones?

 

[Man of Leisure]

Frequent Boomtown much Dwayne?

 

[WI_Red]

Honestly mate, I cannot sit here and lie to you just to give you a personal experience of 'but.....'. Although it should be mentioned I work in the Uk not in the US, I assume you're American. I've been in the force less than four years, had I been in twenty years or more I'd probably have a lot more 'but.....' to tell you. Just to sort of make a point, there are about 20,000 odd street officers in London, on any given day we'll deal with about half a dozen jobs, that equates to about 250,000 to 400,000 police interactions in a week and so on and so forth. How many do you remember making the news or being a big thing in any given year? As far as I'm aware I'm the only met officer on here, the odds are slim of me giving a big juicy story of witnessing an officer 'feck it up'. The most I see is incompetence and rudeness and usually you chip in and deescalate the situation and have words. Even if you're talking about inappropriate comments in a car, it just doesn't happen to the extent you heard, at most you'll get drooling over women walking about.

Even before I joined, I had literally no bad experiences of police. I'm black and grew up in area called St Raphaels (google it) it's no Kensington and Chelsea. I was stop and searched once in my entire life and that was for protesting, chucked a book at a scientology building ( I was 18)
All this isn't me saying bad shit doesn't happen, it clearly does, quite patently more so in other countries. People want change and something drastic and I am 100% in agreement that needs to happen in the States based on the evidence, I just think some of the ideas thrown about in here are either completely unrealistic or are a few screws short of calling for anarchy.
And to be fair this thread is 'cops in America doing a bad job' and I appreciate that then skews any point of view I may have but when it comes down to basic discussion like an abolishing or drink drives not being offences than the UK/US difference ceases to be an issue.


Basically assault by the second copper, completely unnecessary, going from 0-100 for no reason. The first copper on scene was a bit of a mess. He's there and people are coming in and out of the car wondering around. He has no control of the situation.

Thank you for your candor, I very much value it. I will 100% concede my understanding of the UK police is basically limited to what I see in movies, so unless Bennie Hill is a documentary I don’t think I know much.

I just know what my experiences in the US have been. I know what my black and brown friends and colleagues have told me of their experiences. I admit when I see things like George Floyd or what those officers did to the old man in Buffalo, I just want to burn it all down. I mean, who do you call when even the heroes are villains?

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Basically assault by the second copper, completely unnecessary, going from 0-100 for no reason. The first copper on scene was a bit of a mess. He's there and people are coming in and out of the car wondering around. He has no control of the situation.

It looks like buddy hit up the midnight buffet for a bit of pork shoulder

When I watched this, I thought it looked like the first officer was at the point where he was placing the guy under arrest and he starts resisting, twisting out of it. At that moment officer number 2 comes in hard, probably seeing it just as I have, but I think it looks worse than it actually is, probably down to dumb, drunk luck that he doesn't connect fully. The Chief got a black eye and a cut eyebrow, but he is alive and well.

The first copper was remarkably restrained, I thought, but he did lose control of the situation. Hard to manage what essentially looks like a clown car in a circus show, with people coming in and out incessantly, though. I'd have tried to get everyone I could in the back seats and casually flick the childproof switch before closing the doors. That said, it's on the driver to keep their passengers cool when the cops are around. That was how we rolled in those parts when I was young, at least. Get in the car and STFU.

Why'd the longhair guy in the pickup get so aggressive for? The 2nd cop was a little excessive, but you gotta think the 1st cop was on his radio apprising him of the situation. The way the women were actually interfering and physically touching the cops without seemingly any punishment is surprising. And what's with all the idiots crowding in with their phones?

Based on my intrinsic knowledge of Canadians he's drunk and unhappy that the cop has pulled them up. Some members of the indigenous community do feel persecuted by the RCMP, a sentiment which probably played a factor here.

Also very Canadian, we don't hit women ever and this extends to the cops.

As for the phones, we're not a backward people! It's 2020, all of our igloos have wi-fi.

Frequent Boomtown much Dwayne?

Regrettably it's way out west, west of where I grew up even. I live out east in Hogtown now. Also, there aren't many things I dislike more than a Canadian casino.

 

[Man of Leisure]

Some members of the indigenous community do feel persecuted by the RCMP, a sentiment which probably played a factor here.

Interesting RCMP have jurisdiction on Indian reservations, if that's where that is. Do Canada even have Indian reservations? In America, they usually have their own tribal law enforcement.

 

[arnie_ni]

Mate, if the guys on here are representative, there's no chance it'll come from withing. I'm starting to come around to all this talk of disbanding police and rehiring (which I initially didn't understand). Needs a property cleanout...

Maybe when someone in their family ends up being collateral damage to "cops following procedure" they'll start asking the right questions like "is there a better way?" - It's like there's no room for autonomy or critical thought. Followers follow orders... No leaders here.

Kinda thought @choiboyx012 was coming around but that was a long time ago and I guess the voices from redcafe no longer matter...

Flip me. They have all said he shouldnt be shot.

What they are challenging is posters saying the police were in the wrong to even be arresting him for dui in the first place.

Are you seriously arguing cops should just ignore all crime?

 

[arnie_ni]

Damnit, this is the f-ing problem! I literally said a few posts up that I don't care if it is the police or a civilian. Of course I am not happy or laugh when a police officer dies. I am saddened and enraged.

You took my statement, and instead of addressing my words you flipped it and attacked. How can we address this if the instinct is to "whatabout" eachother.

Your post mostly makes me sad.

And the police in here have criticised the shooting but are defending the initial arrest but you and the other guy conveniently ignored that

 

[Isotope]

How does the data compare between the US and other Western nations with incidents like this?
(When a suspect resists and the police shoot him dead)

I feel like only in the US does this stuff constantly escalate to the point that the suspect gets killed. People resist in Western Europe too but I'm quite confident they don't get killed as much as people in the US.

Is it the fear for civilian-owned guns?

Read it somewhere that it's better to make sure you kill a criminal, then leave him (half) alive with a chance of getting sued. I'm not sure if this apply to police force, though.

 

[afrocentricity]

Flip me. They have all said he shouldnt be shot.

What they are challenging is posters saying the police were in the wrong to even be arresting him for dui in the first place.

Are you seriously arguing cops should just ignore all crime?

Another person who cannot read....

Are you seriously arguing cops should just ignore all crime?

This is what you got from my posts???

 

[villain]

I’ve long since voiced that in my opinion - one of the worst aspects about policing is the trauma & PTSD it has on the communities they ‘serve’.
Of course the killings are terrible and more often than not shouldn’t happen - but they don’t happen in isolation - the reactions & defensiveness of black people doesn’t happen out of nowhere or for no reason.

The above video doesn’t look like much, and could easily be overlooked - but it’s a heartbreaking reminder of what the police represent to a lot of black people. An institution to fear, avoid and hide from.
That kid doesn’t look older than about 12, (and actually that video gave me flashbacks of the Tamir Rice killing) yet he’s pushed into survival mode at the sight of a cop car - imagine what that does to the psyche of someone that young?
Add onto the fact that living in black skin means constantly being aware & conscious of your race in every space you enter - it’s traumatic.

I don’t like to focus on the killings personally, it’s the everyday encounters that worry me the most - kids like that who fear the very people who are supposed to protect them, the reports against police officers’ inappropriate behaviour that never goes anywhere. It’s the insults & daily power trips. It’s the ‘you fit the description’ stops - the presumption of guilt, criminality followed by dehumanisation. It’s the embarrassment. It’s the fact the feeling that you can’t escape this reality.

These situations don't make headlines, they're not statistics that are entered into a database that can be analysed easily - it's easy to dismiss them because they aren't visible to anyone who doesn't have to deal with situations, and if you try and talk about it you'll probably sound paranoid or irrational.



That looks long to read, but it’s mostly dialogue from a 2015 encounter between a black man & the police, it's a small glimpse of the type of thing i'm talking about

This part particularly

It was at this moment that I knew that I was probably going to die. I am not being dramatic when I say this. I was not going to get into a police car. I was not going to present myself to some victim. I was not going let someone tell the cops that I was not guilty when I already told them that I had nothing to do with any robbery. I was not going to let them take me anywhere because if they did, the chance I was going to be accused of something I did not do rose exponentially. I knew this in my heart. I was not going anywhere with these cops and I was not going to let some white woman decide whether or not I was a criminal, especially after I told them that I was not a criminal. This meant that I was going to resist arrest. This meant that I was not going to let the police put their hands on me.

 

[RedC]

Tbh I'm just tired at having to justify myself to groups of posters on here who deem it acceptable to call me scum, a racist, a bastard and whatever else just because of the job I do. It's as if I should apologise on behalf of all the bad cops in the world and theres an expectation I should hang my head in shame and put up with it. Sorry but I'm proud of my job and the work I, and many others, do to tackle racism, inequality, abuse and violence every single day.

That's kinda where I'm at with it now and I don't need to explain myself to anyone here.

You need to stop getting personally offended when people talk about the police force. If you are a good policeman and know this yourself, none of what anyone says applies to you. You do this in a lot of threads, and do the same thing when anyone mentions anything about the British as well. People talk in generalised terms on forums all the time, nobody is personally attacking you(that I've seen anyway).

 

[balaks]

You need to stop getting personally offended when people talk about the police force. If you are a good policeman and know this yourself, none of what anyone says applies to you. You do this in a lot of threads, and do the same thing when anyone mentions anything about the British as well. People talk in generalised terms on forums all the time, nobody is personally attacking you(that I've seen anyway).

Very easy to say that as somebody who has probably no clue what it is like to be in a profession that is regularly destroyed in the media. I totally get why @TheReligion feels like that and it's understandable that it would annoy him. Having worked with the Police many times over the years I've found the vast majority of them to be decent people doing a difficult job, if anything they deserve our support right now instead of just kicking them because of the actions of a minority.

 

[fergieisold]

For those that think that a guy who is sleeping intoxicated in his car is a risk and should be arrested (or even shot dead). How about this, wake him up, breathalyse him, upon finding out he is too drunk to be driving but finding out that he had possibly chosen to sleep it off (as can happen).

How about this:

Have a word with him, write it up and take his keys (or some variations of that),
Sort it out with him once he comes to pick up his keys and is in a more coherent state.

At least one less death by cop.

I think an arrest here was deserved, he'd clearly been driving over the limit - he was absolutely smashed. He couldn't remember where he was, what he was doing, how much he'd had to drink. The police were incredibly patient with him, which is what makes this all the more strange...

It was such a calm, rather humorous encounter that some how ended up with him being shot. Utterly bizarre!

 

[decorativeed]

Ah you can get out with that rubbish. Not one person I've seen has defended the shooting so the usual Caf rent a mob have decided to start trying to re-invent what the offence of drink driving is as if the guy fell asleep and was magically transported to the passenger seat of his car blocking the drive through at Wendy's. Not only that the cops should apologise for distributing him and order him a cab home. What planet some of you on I'll never know.

I know at the moment on the Caf you seemingly have to be "with us or against us" but the guy had been drink driving and was rightly arrested. He then resisted arrest using a taser and was shot in the back whilst trying to escape. It doesn't make the shooting right at all but that's the facts of what happened so why are people desperately looking for an argument that doesn't exist. Jesus wept this place is exhausting.

What is exasperating is people somehow justifying the use of excessive force. Yes, the guy was drunk, and it was well within the rights of the police to get him out of the car and make an arrest.

The bit that is wrong, is that after a struggle - which clearly would frustrate and anger anyone on the receiving end of it - they elevated themselves to judge and jury and dished out a death sentence to someone whose suspected crime carried a sentence of 6 months in jail if convicted. What did they stand to lose if he managed to get away? Police should be able to handle situations like this without their loss of temper leading to another loss of life.

Anyone in any job eventually loses patience with it. People working in shops start to develop a disdain for their customers for example, but for police to do the job their communities pay them for that cannot be allowed to happen.

 

[Grinner]

If those cops had just let the drunk guy go and he'd injured or killed somebody in a road accident can you imagine how big the lawsuit would have been against the city?

It's just daft to say they should let a drunk driver go about his business. DUI is a huge no-no in the US. It's considered a very serious offence everywhere and the penalties are quite large.

 

[afrocentricity]

Who actually said that the cops should have let him off? Just in case we end up going around in circles for pages over a point that nobody made. Curious as I don't recall seeing it...

 

[RedC]

Very easy to say that as somebody who has probably no clue what it is like to be in a profession that is regularly destroyed in the media. I totally get why @TheReligion feels like that and it's understandable that it would annoy him. Having worked with the Police many times over the years I've found the vast majority of them to be decent people doing a difficult job, if anything they deserve our support right now instead of just kicking them because of the actions of a minority.

A policeman is probably in the top 3 public sector jobs for scrutiny, and rightly so. The fact that he can't handle things being questioned about the police force without taking it as a personal insult is part of the problem in general with any sort of police reform. If he is a good policeman he should be happy for citizens to question the actions of bad ones, and how the police force as a whole deals with issues, knowing that he is doing his job as he should. I'm sure it's hard to hear all the time, but that's part of his job? Also it is usually American police that are being discussed in here, so there is very little need for him to take personal offence to comments leveled at them. it's a completely different world.

 

[balaks]

A policeman is probably in the top 3 public sector jobs for scrutiny, and rightly so. The fact that he can't handle things being questioned about the police force without taking it as a personal insult is part of the problem in general with any sort of police reform. If he is a good policeman he should be happy for citizens to question the actions of bad ones, and how the police force as a whole deals with issues, knowing that he is doing his job as he should. I'm sure it's hard to hear all the time, but that's part of his job? Also it is usually American police that are being discussed in here, so there is very little need for him to take personal offence to comments leveled at them. it's a completely different world.

He is proud of his job and is understandably frustrated at people constantly bashing his profession. I've had it in my own profession and believe me it is not a great experience especially since most people don't really have a clue what it is like to work as a cop or see the things they deal with on a daily basis.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

Ah you can get out with that rubbish. Not one person I've seen has defended the shooting so the usual Caf rent a mob have decided to start trying to re-invent what the offence of drink driving is as if the guy fell asleep and was magically transported to the passenger seat of his car blocking the drive through at Wendy's. Not only that the cops should apologise for distributing him and order him a cab home. What planet some of you on I'll never know.

I know at the moment on the Caf you seemingly have to be "with us or against us" but the guy had been drink driving and was rightly arrested. He then resisted arrest using a taser and was shot in the back whilst trying to escape. It doesn't make the shooting right at all but that's the facts of what happened so why are people desperately looking for an argument that doesn't exist. Jesus wept this place is exhausting.

Have you ever heard the analogy about the difference between religion and science?

If you wiped all memory of them both which one would we rediscover as is and which would we reinvent differently.

Either the police are as they are for a reason which would become obvious pretty quickly or the reinvented version would lose the baggage of the old. Policing is only possible by consent which it seems is lost at the moment.

Personally, I wouldn't do the job for all the tea in China so I wish good luck to those who step into the new role. I suspect the new force would be worse trained have fewer powers and all the crime stats will rocket but I could be wrong.

 

[Fosu-Mens]

I remember the furor when this paper came out a few years ago.

Taking a quick look at the paper I am struck by a few things.

-The paper is completely reliant on police reports with no interviews of witnesses. Considering the documented examples of police "exaggerating" reports to frame a narrative, I am suspect of reliability of the data,
-The CI bars on the lethal use of force graph (figure 4) are huge meaning there is large variability in the sample data set. This data is also only from one city, Houston.
-The data for the rest of the paper is from only 10 cities in 3 states. This is not necessarily a representative data set.
-The basis of their lethal use of force analysis is if the victim was carrying a weapon, which ignores the face that the issue we are discussing is the shooting of UNARMED black men.
-The paper also only looks at police interactions, it does not investigate the frequency of interactions by race, nor the cause of the interaction to begin with.
-My above observations are based on a 5 min skimming of the article, so please take them with all the grains of salt.

Also, this is the first part of the papers conclusion. I am just going to leave this here:

"The importance of our results for racial inequality in America is unclear. It is plausible that racial differences in lower level uses of force are simply a distraction and movements such as Black Lives Matter should seek solutions within their own communities rather than changing the behaviors of police and other external forces."

p.s.: The author of this paper was placed on a two year suspension from Harvard for sexual harassment. Tenure is a "wonderful" thing.

The biggest flaw in this paper is by far using data gathered from only one source, as you mention. The credibility (subjectivity) in this paper is not proved by having "data that one would think to prove cops where innocent" indicate the opposite... And these interactions between police and a private citizen should be coded better, i.e. first handled as qualitative data, then sorted better and presented as quantitative data.

I found this paper, and by only reading the abstract you would think this was without a shadow of a doubt indication of racism/profiling, but having skimmed the paper for 10 minutes, I agree with you... Some serious flaws. Still, this paper would have been used far and wide by both sides if it was not for the suspension of the autor.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

Who actually said that the cops should have let him off? Just in case we end up going around in circles for pages over a point that nobody made. Curious as I don't recall seeing it...

To be fair didn't one poster suggested calling him an Uber.

Also if in the end you mandate voluntary arrests only its going to save a lot paper work.

 

[fergieisold]

I’ve long since voiced that in my opinion - one of the worst aspects about policing is the trauma & PTSD it has on the communities they ‘serve’.
Of course the killings are terrible and more often than not shouldn’t happen - but they don’t happen in isolation - the reactions & defensiveness of black people doesn’t happen out of nowhere or for no reason.

The above video doesn’t look like much, and could easily be overlooked - but it’s a heartbreaking reminder of what the police represent to a lot of black people. An institution to fear, avoid and hide from.
That kid doesn’t look older than about 12, (and actually that video gave me flashbacks of the Tamir Rice killing) yet he’s pushed into survival mode at the sight of a cop car - imagine what that does to the psyche of someone that young?
Add onto the fact that living in black skin means constantly being aware & conscious of your race in every space you enter - it’s traumatic.

I don’t like to focus on the killings personally, it’s the everyday encounters that worry me the most - kids like that who fear the very people who are supposed to protect them, the reports against police officers’ inappropriate behaviour that never goes anywhere. It’s the insults & daily power trips. It’s the ‘you fit the description’ stops - the presumption of guilt, criminality followed by dehumanisation. It’s the embarrassment. It’s the fact the feeling that you can’t escape this reality.

These situations don't make headlines, they're not statistics that are entered into a database that can be analysed easily - it's easy to dismiss them because they aren't visible to anyone who doesn't have to deal with situations, and if you try and talk about it you'll probably sound paranoid or irrational.



That looks long to read, but it’s mostly dialogue from a 2015 encounter between a black man & the police, it's a small glimpse of the type of thing i'm talking about

This part particularly

The bit you quote at the end is the bad part for me, the years of built up fear of what might happen at the hands of the police and justice system. I don't think the police did anything particularly out of the ordinary here? They must have had a rough description and he matched it, just bad luck he was walking in an area close to where a crime took place. Of course...I'm presuming the officers here actually had his description, and didn't just make it up so they could stop a black man walking innocently to get lunch!

 

[Ødegaard]

Who actually said that the cops should have let him off? Just in case we end up going around in circles for pages over a point that nobody made. Curious as I don't recall seeing it...

2 posts above yours.

 

[afrocentricity]

2 posts above yours.

Correct me if I'm wrong (the poster can speak for himself anyway) but to me that's not a suggestion to let him off, that's a suggestion to avoid killing him knowing that you can follow up and arrest him later (you have his car and you know who he is).

 

[Ødegaard]

Correct me if I'm wrong (the poster can speak for himself anyway) but to me that's not a suggestion to let him off, that's a suggestion to avoid killing him knowing that you can follow up and arrest him later (you have his car and you know who he is).

I might not be awake enough right now. Just reading up and thought "hey, didn't I just read someone who said that?"

 

[villain]

The bit you quote at the end is the bad part for me, the years of built up fear of what might happen at the hands of the police and justice system. I don't think the police did anything particularly out of the ordinary here? They must have had a rough description and he matched it, just bad luck he was walking in an area close to where a crime took place. Of course...I'm presuming the officers here actually had his description, and didn't just make it up so they could stop a black man walking innocently to get lunch!

This is precisely what I talk about when I say "if you try and talk about it you'll probably sound paranoid or irrational" - this perspective can't be explained by those who don't have to live with it. It's trauma, black people are living with trauma when it comes to the police.

The police didn't do anything out of the ordinary - I didn't suggest that they did - it's the fact he knew, in that moment - his innocence was hanging on the word of someone else. There's a long history of people who are jailed for crimes they don't commit, falsely arrested, put in jail awaiting a trial date that doesn't come for months etc. If he went down the police station, he wasn't sure when he would leave.
Beyond that, peoples memories are bad - the victim of the robbery could've misremembered and said it was him - now his life is ruined, that easily.
-edit: the 'description' is often when you are black and of a similar build - which is why we saw that woman in Central Park a few weeks ago screaming into the phone that a 'BLACK man was threatening her life' she knew that was the only description that mattered.

Luckily for him, none of that occurred, but now he has to live with that experience, his relationship with the police wouldn't have improved, his day was ruined and it's a memory that will last with him. He could've easily been seen by someone he knows or works with, passerby's will see a black man surrounded by white cops and will assume he's a criminal - further stereotypes are now being reinforced. It's a cycle that doesn't end well.

There has to be a better way.

 

[Sweet Square]

I won't lie listening to you guys (police) is depressing as feck. It's like you just don't get it and never will...

The officers on the caf are a perfect example of the many institutional problems at the heart of western police forces. Nice enough guys but they'll defend the most awful shit in order to protect the institution of the policing overall.

They are basically like the average millwall supporter.

 

[balaks]

The officers on the caf are a perfect example of the many institutional problems at the heart of western police forces. Nice enough guys but they'll defend the most awful shit in order to protect the institution of the policing overall.

They are basically like the average millwall supporter.

What awful shit has anybody defended in this thread?