What a fecking plonker.
Yeah fecking tartan the similarity ends there.
There's even a nursery rhyme named after him. Bet he had it sung to him constantly when he was young and that's why he's now a trick cyclist.
Confirmed: Moyes sacked.
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There's even a nursery rhyme named after him. Bet he had it sung to him constantly when he was young and that's why he's now a trick cyclist.
Well, that is the simplest answer. And if Occam's razor is anything to go by it's probably the right one. I'm not convinced, though.
Fergie's retirement should have been handled better. Gill went on record some years ago to say that the club had a clear plan lined out and that they were fully prepared for the day when Fergie would finally step down. I don't believe that. The appointment of Moyes looks odder the closer you look at it. There's an element of something almost haphazard about it. Fergie calls him up and basically orders him to take the job? He then instructs him to retain the backroom staff - which Moyes promptly disregards as his very first order of business? Is this pure incompetence on Moyes' part? Not on the surface of things, no - because Moyes' managerial style is clearly not compatible with retaining the backroom staff as it was organized under Fergie. Anyone could see that. And yet Fergie says what he says. It doesn't add up. And it doesn't smack of a controlled, well thought-out transition of power at all.
Not at all. Its something i regret but i honestly feel this way.
Looking forward to the autobiographies.
I believe Wenger said in an interview Cesc was not leaving Barcelona... That said it all.
As much as I wanna blame Moyes for the foolishness, his advisors within the club should have talked some sense into him..
He was just not comfortable shopping at the top end of the market..considering what he had to contend with at his previous club.
I don't get how we're supposed to feel. Should we move on as quickly as we have from the Rooney transfer request saga - I know that never gets mentioned or referenced. Or how we move on from every poor Ashley Young performance, something this forum is famed for not dwelling on. It's not as if this is the distant past, it's not even been a week yet.
Majority of these stories won't even be real.
Well you're entitled to your opinion. No one is arguing the appointment has been well thought out. It's not. Fergie made a decision to retired the Christmas prior as a result of her wife's sister passing. Some may think it's only an excuse but Fergie has no reason to make excuse. Granted he's not totally into "I am keeping my wife's company after my retiring" sort of scenario. But there must be one point in his life he wanted to call it. And he made up his mind in the middle of a hectic season (I don't believe he has time at any stage of the season he could be laying out his plan and discuss with the Glazers. I truly don't.) Some people think Fergie was not as forth coming as he should but I honestly do not think there is a different agenda on his part.
So my belief is, he thought Moyes could fit the bill, comes to the club, earns loads, learns the united way, listens to those who have been there, done that, forgets about Evertonian mediocrity, because you are the manager of the biggest club in the world, why think lower?... Etc. But Moyes failed him, totally. Fergie and the club were being honest about it. The sacking was about timing, and the method of delivering the message was not calculated. There are other consideration to concern.
That's the only version there is I am going for
What a difference a week makes! Last week this time we lost to Everton, had no clue Moyes was about to be sacked, Liverpool won! A week later we have our first win with Giggs, are hopefully close to appointing a permanent manager and Liverpool lost to Chelsea. Football, bloody hell!
Moyes appointment has hardly destroyed the club. At worst his tenure has cost the club around 50/60 Million in lost revenues by not qualifying for Europe and the Fellaini mistake.
Last year I thought Moyes' appointment on Fergie's recommendation meant a "carry on" approach of sorts: you have a successful model, you hire a pair of safe hands, a good manager, to, well, carry on in much the same way. You allow him some time to get to grips with the job - which is, after all, a huge one. And you hope he grows with the job, becomes a top manager in his own right. Sounds very reasonable and it would also fit in nicely with what might have been a long term strategy - something along the lines of what Gill has alluded to in the past. It's not a risk free strategy by any means: the man may never take the necessary step up, the job could simply be too big for him to handle. And, not least, it may not we wise to simply carry on - sometimes you need to make a clean break and move on in another direction in order to continue being successful. But all things said and done, it still sounds like a reasonable strategy - and certainly one which would appeal to the Glazers, who had thus far profited greatly from Fergie's way of doing things.
But the picture which now emerges is a very strange one. It looks like Moyes began changing quite a bit right away. He didn't simply "carry on". He brought his own staff and introduced new methods of training, new tactics, new ways of announcing the starting eleven! None of which would have been problematic, I think, if it hadn't been Moyes who introduced all this. Had it been Maureen or Ancelotti, the players wouldn't have questioned it to the same extent. Some of them may have resented the change regardless - I suspect that - but Maureen or Ancelotti would have commanded a respect Moyes lacked from the onset and a couple of disgruntled veterans wouldn't have been a big deal for 'em. But, and this is the point, the board knew bloody well that Moyes wasn't Maureen when they gave him the job.
Again, I thought the strategy was "minimal change, smooth transition": we hire Fergie's man, he carries on in a familiar way, everybody's happy. But Moyes doesn't act like Fergie's man. From the very onset he introduces changes which might be considered dramatic in this context - and some of these appear to have been implemented against Fergie's advice and/or instructions. Which begs the question: didn't they (the board? Fergie? Woodward?) sit down with Moyes and ask him precisely what he intended to do? What his plans were? Did they simply assume that he would carry on doing things - more or less - the way players and staff were accustomed to?
And were they then completely baffled when he went about doing the exact opposite? After a while Moyes began talking about the need for a rebuild. At no point was this talk contradicted by the club. Seemingly they were on board with this idea. Now, they would've been faced with a dilemma, obviously, if it turned that the man they appointed preached and practiced a philosophy they never endorsed - and perhaps they would've let him bang on, just waiting for a certain clause in his contract to kick in - but surely they never should've been faced with such an absurd dilemma to begin with? They should've known exactly what he intended to do. And if what he went about doing was something entirely different from what he had proposed - well, then they'd have every right to have a rather stern chat with him right away. Or so you'd think.
They don't appear to have done any of this, though. To me it almost seems - as insane as it sounds - as though United weren't fully aware of what Moyes' plans were.
Alright, I'll leave it at that. This is just ranting and speculation on my part. We don't have the full story. I hope we get it at some point.
But the picture which now emerges is a very strange one. It looks like Moyes began changing quite a bit right away. He didn't simply "carry on". He brought his own staff and introduced new methods of training, new tactics, new ways of announcing the starting eleven! None of which would have been problematic, I think, if it hadn't been Moyes who introduced all this. Had it been Maureen or Ancelotti, the players wouldn't have questioned it to the same extent. Some of them may have resented the change regardless - I suspect that - but Maureen or Ancelotti would have commanded a respect Moyes lacked from the onset and a couple of disgruntled veterans wouldn't have been a big deal for 'em. But, and this is the point, the board knew bloody well that Moyes wasn't Maureen when they gave him the job.
Again, I thought the strategy was "minimal change, smooth transition": we hire Fergie's man, he carries on in a familiar way, everybody's happy. But Moyes doesn't act like Fergie's man. From the very onset he introduces changes which might be considered dramatic in this context - and some of these appear to have been implemented against Fergie's advice and/or instructions. Which begs the question: didn't they (the board? Fergie? Woodward?) sit down with Moyes and ask him precisely what he intended to do? What his plans were? Did they simply assume that he would carry on doing things - more or less - the way players and staff were accustomed to?
And were they then completely baffled when he went about doing the exact opposite? After a while Moyes began talking about the need for a rebuild. At no point was this talk contradicted by the club. Seemingly they were on board with this idea. Now, they would've been faced with a dilemma, obviously, if it turned that the man they appointed preached and practiced a philosophy they never endorsed - and perhaps they would've let him bang on, just waiting for a certain clause in his contract to kick in - but surely they never should've been faced with such an absurd dilemma to begin with? They should've known exactly what he intended to do. And if what he went about doing was something entirely different from what he had proposed - well, then they'd have every right to have a rather stern chat with him right away. Or so you'd think.
They don't appear to have done any of this, though. To me it almost seems - as insane as it sounds - as though United weren't fully aware of what Moyes' plans were.
Alright, I'll leave it at that. This is just ranting and speculation on my part. We don't have the full story. I hope we get it at some point.
Well you're entitled to your opinion. No one is arguing the appointment has been well thought out. It's not. Fergie made a decision to retired the Christmas prior as a result of her wife's sister passing. Some may think it's only an excuse but Fergie has no reason to make excuse. Granted he's not totally into "I am keeping my wife's company after my retiring" sort of scenario. But there must be one point in his life he wanted to call it. And he made up his mind in the middle of a hectic season (I don't believe he has time at any stage of the season he could be laying out his plan and discuss with the Glazers. I truly don't.) Some people think Fergie was not as forth coming as he should but I honestly do not think there is a different agenda on his part.
So my belief is, he thought Moyes could fit the bill, comes to the club, earns loads, learns the united way, listens to those who have been there, done that, forgets about Evertonian mediocrity, because you are the manager of the biggest club in the world, why think lower?... Etc. But Moyes failed him, totally. Fergie and the club were being honest about it. The sacking was about timing, and the method of delivering the message was not calculated. There are other consideration to concern.
That's the only version there is I am going for
Looking at it in simple terms yes Moyes failed Ferguson, but when you think through the initial logic of Moyes appointment or lack there of and with the benefit of having seen what transpired this season. There really wasn't anything else Moyes could have done so unsuited was he to the job.
So you could maybe say Ferguson actually failed Moyes also by instigating a series of events which lead to Moyes being offered a job he had no business being appointed to. Ferguson badly misjudged Moyes character & capabilities, most united and football fans at least the ones i spoke to over the years never considered Moyes a genuine candidate to replace SAF when he eventually retired he just didn't have the experience for such a massive job.
Yet Ferguson thought he was perfect to succeed him and if reports are to be believed convinced the glazers and United board of directors, i think whether they will admit it or not most people were surprised by Moyes appointment, many were swept up in the romanticism of it and even convinced themselves he was the logical choice.
Others who were not so sure Moyes had the credentials to take over where SAF left off and rationalized it with the line of thinking that Ferguson knows so much more about football than us so he must see something in Moyes that we can't, with SAF being the genius that he is we just need to give it time and Moyes will win us over and prove SAF to be an astute judge of talent once again. This is pretty much the camp i was in at the beginning as he would have not been in my top 10.
Somewhere Ferguson missed a step in his thinking with Moyes, whether their friendship or shared nationality and background clouded his judgement we may never know. But in taking such a big risk on Moyes and offering him an opportunity he would have been mad to refuse he has created a situation which resulted in David Moyes being publicly humiliated and put under enormous pressure he was probably not capable of handling.
Moyes left a virtual job for life at everton to come to United, now hes out of work with his reputation in tatters and the cause of british managers taking a battering into the bargain.
So we should maybe bear some of this in mind before trying to lay all the blame for this whole ill thought out fiasco at the feet of Moyes, i don't think Ferguson should be given a free pass here. He should shoulder a large proportion of the blame for this whole saga and how it played out in my opinion.
Spin. He's worked in football all his life - he had to know his job wasn't safe. Regardless of 6 year contracts, a manager can't perform as badly as Moyes and not be in danger of the axe.
DM had to play a post-sacking game of 'it wasn't me, guv' with very few cards in his hand. So he thumps a deuce on the table and pretends it's an ace - poor Dave had to hear about the loss of his job in the media - those monsters! Let's forget about ten months of appalling mismanagement and concentrate on that!
I remembered that yesterday man - rippin i'd forgot about that. Its just not the done thing by most managers anymore. Some may think its a sign of weakness, but its quite the opposite amongst football people.. Total respect!
Bingo
Whats happened to you Ram? You seem to have lost the stomach for a good aul verbal - thats not like you mucker. You in love again?
Oh Not again!!!
I am not going to repeat what I said earlier. Fergie is a magician but he aint no God. If from the outset you and some thought that he's not suitable why would you not think it is the right thing to have sacked him before the season is out? Why not? Why still give him time when its proven (or in your opinion before even proven) he's not a good fit for United.
You blame Fergie because he made a wrong judgment (out of his belief that Moyes can take over a Champion team to at least 4th place and then rebuild from there). Fergie did not want Untied to be City and Chelsea hence he suggested someone who is steady, and has some constant performance at Everton. Little did he know that he would let go the experienced coaching staff, ignore senior players, build his own fort, import his Everton player, instil mediocrity into the team, training not to win, but to not lose, lacking in confidence in front of the media, blaming Fergie for leaving him a team who needs to be overhauled.. breaking all the records etc.
Fergie is human, and he can make mistake. But if Moyes just listened to his advisers around the club, retained staff who can help him, spent time considering new signings, encouraged his players more positively, got rid of his Evertonian mindset, be confident and achieved 4th, not 7th, we wouldn't be here analysing. I feel sorry Fergie had to suffer these accusations from his fans. He set the high bar over the years but realised it would take sometime for the new manager to achieve some success. His judgement of Moyes was wrong eventually. But hindsight is 20/20. What he has done wrong is Moyes couldn't see himself as capable hence looked so clueless most of the time. He should have told Fergie if he was being honest. But he's not. And now he's blaming everyone but himself.
Bingo
Whats happened to you Ram? You seem to have lost the stomach for a good aul verbal - thats not like you mucker. You in love again?
Neviller is gone, nobody to wind up
You 2 break up?
Er on the bolded part i think you should maybe read over some of my recent posts to get an idea of where i stand on Moyes sacking, lets just say i reckon it happened about 2-3 months too late.
Moyes was a disaster from almost day one, that cannot be denied. But he was a disaster because in my opinion he was totally unsuited for the job and lacked the necessary experience. You can blame Moyes for everything that went wrong after july 1st if you want, i happen to think he is culpable for the majority of it myself.
But you cannot blame the man for other people offering him the job or for accepting it, in this clusterfeck of a season that is thankfully almost over of all the baffling mistakes made the biggest one was undoubtedly Moyes being appointed in the first place.
So those people responsible for placing Moyes in the job of which Ferguson was one deserve their share of criticism for the abysmal season we have all just had to endure in my opinion.
Was Moyes the best candidate ? NO
Was Fergie wrong to appoint him mostly on Romantism ? Yes
Did Moyes deserves the job? NO
Did Moyes did badly beyond expectations? YES
I blame fergie for not doing a thorough, proper filtering, he simply pick the one he liked without giving any thoughts on the actual candidacy selection process at all, he could have given moyes a few credit / extra points for his likeness, but at least he could have properly interview several competitions as well.
Was Fergie wrong to appoint him mostly on Romantism ? Yes
Did Moyes deserves the job? NO
Did Moyes did badly beyond expectations? YES
I blame fergie for not doing a thorough, proper filtering, he simply pick the one he liked without giving any thoughts on the actual candidacy selection process at all, he could have given moyes a few credit / extra points for his likeness, but at least he could have properly interview several competitions as well.
Sorry to hear that bro - atleast you'll be able to walk properly now
The Kerry match was a kick in the teeth to be honest man & then losing 2 goals in the 1st 70 seconds against Dublin showed we have alot to work on in terms of mental ability & nerves. We showed great grit comin back from that shit start against the Dubs, so thats a positive. Losing by a point at the end was a massive kick in the teeth - miserable journey home.
We should have had the semi's sewn up before that match though & ended up with no trip to Crokers - which would have been great for the young lads playin senior football under those intense atmospheres.
Its a new young fresh team though - which is brilliant. We havent seen that conveyor-belt (which we've had smoke blown up our arses about) prospering onto the senior team & thats been so disappointing. The talent is there man, but you have to get it right in your head or it counts for feck all.
Whatya reckon about Down man? I'd always fancy them to up a gear once the Championship gets started. Lovely football team to watch & probably everyone's favourite 2nd team in the North.. Probably sick of hearing that, but you cant blame us for admiring the footballing mantra you's have - especially in Ulster - the home of "Puke Football.."
Yeah, i'm still rattled by that Southern Irish county crusade against a "foreign county" coming down takin their trophy
Am I the only one who thinks Fergie was placed between a rock and a hard place?
1. lsat time he announced retirement, he had to change his mind, and then went on to give us more success
2. then when its really high time he called it for the sack of himself and the club (his health would suffer etc) but he had to leave a team capable of winning to his successor
3. he did that and announced retirement
4. he was not supposed to be involved to name his successor but who at the club is more suitable than him, so he took it upon himself to name someone (or was asked to). He did not need to but he did, the board and owners had freedom to interview someone but they rely on him
4. he knew if he suggested Mourinho and the like, the club he had singlehanded taken to where it is today will become the like of Chelsea and City. He did not like the idea
5. He named Moyes falsely believing that since he's not experienced but hard working, he would treasure the experience of staff and would pick up the phone to ask him for advice
(although we don't know if these consultation had happened, we can safely assume that it must be far and few between... But it doesn't mean Fergie refused to make himself available as Giggsy can testify Fergie said he's always at the other end of the phone at his disposal. Can't see why Moyes couldn't have done the same. But I doubt he had otherwise he would not be so clueless)
Note that although all of you do not rate Moyes, recently many managers disapproved of the sacking. For example Klinsmann said he's very disappointed because Moyes is a great great manager (they probably form a support group to share experience of being sacked haha)
So, Fergie was in a damn if you do damn if you don't situation. He can't please everyone. The owners, the board, the fans.. Moyes himself. I feel sorry the legend had to endure all these complaints and was asked to take full blame and responsibility. I suppose it is his fault to have set the bar so high and have fans so spoilt.
Fergie tried to clone himself.
...should never have tried.
...should never have tried.
Stop putting it like that, You'd be so naive to think that Fergie was forced to pick his candidate and doing so unwillingly.
Fergie picked / chose / handpicked Moyes, based on an imaginary value that he "thinks" Dave possess. I don't blame him in a retrospec, but to say he has no part in our demise this season is bollock.
Is it a big sin? Meh, Moyes is sacked in less than a season, we acted fast. Everyone makes mistakes.
But is it his mistakes? Yes. Big part of moyes appointment is due to him.
It is like blaming your parents of sending you to the wrong school when you misbehaved and became rotten. Shit happened. He's only human and made mistake but hardly deserved all these judgement and blame
I don't blame him that much, probably 20% only...
And I agree wholeheartedly with you. Moyes is his own man, he shouldn't let his destiny lies on SAF's judgment.
He really wasn't in an impossible situation, the scenario was straightforward he was asked to recommend a manager to succeed him. Logic dictated he choose someone with the obvious credentials needed to manage a club the size of United, the same criteria we will be applying to our manager search this summer.
Namely experience managing big clubs/players/squad, a record of winning or challenging for league titles regularly, experience of champions league campaigns, sets teams up to play attacking football.
And in a summer where Guardiola, Mourinho, Ancelotti all changed clubs Ferguson chose a man who had none of those credentials, and shock horror the totally unsuitable manager he chose made an absolute hash of the job and got himself sacked in less than a year.
You can go all day that Moyes didn't take Fergies advice etc. but if SAF presumably knew Moyes so well he should have had an idea he would want to do things his own way, be stubborn and not take advice.
So sorry for me SAF & the board appointed Moyes thats on them, had they employed some common sense last summer and hired a manager with suitable experience i doubt we would be where we are now. We would still be in the Top 4 for sure, and who knows if the other manager had spent the money on offer last summer instead of fecking about for 3 months only to sign Fellaini, we could still be in contention for the league and/or champions league with a chance of winning one.
Not sure if there is a better place to post this, but some of this Moyes spin is absolute bull.
Moyes reckoned that he was safe because he had a 6 year contract, yet that contract clearly had a break clause in relate do top 4 finish.... If it was me, and I had the team in 7th, knowing the club were clearly sufficiently concerned about dropping out of top four that they inserted a clause in my contract, I'd be pretty worried about my position.
Either Moyes must have known he was on rocky ground, nor he was a bigger idiot than we truly believe.
Moyes reckoned that he was safe because he had a 6 year contract, yet that contract clearly had a break clause in relate do top 4 finish.... If it was me, and I had the team in 7th, knowing the club were clearly sufficiently concerned about dropping out of top four that they inserted a clause in my contract, I'd be pretty worried about my position.
Either Moyes must have known he was on rocky ground, nor he was a bigger idiot than we truly believe.
Thats a great assessment mate... Most football people would understand that without being told - some not so understanding unfortunately!
Since Moyes has been portrayed as Gollum from LOTR by Everton fans, its quite appropriate to compare the ring ("my precious") to United & the way it made Gollum feel powerful to do what he wanted - once he had the ring on...
There is no way that Moyes didn't know about that Clause. NO WAY!
You're saying a manager didn't realise he has a 4th or sacked clause in a contract he signed?
So... I guess he knows he's leaving way before he actually got the sacked, and leak or no leak, he kinda knows his end is coming.
Let's see..... people like you deserve nothing from Fergie to be honest. No matter what he did and whoever was in the hot seat and we ended up the current position, people like you would blame Fergie anyway (for retiring, for not helping naming a suitable successor, for leaving a team too old, no midfield... ) He's really in an impossible position. End of discussion. I will not change my opinion about him and Moyes.
For the record Pep had agreed to move to Bayern before Fergie decided to retiree, and there are numerous reports that Ancelotti was first choice but wanted to go to Madrid. So to say those two were ignored isn't likely true.
I've posted this before, but rewatch his last post match interview on sky where he asked about his job in the tunnel all he does is shrug and give a sad little smile.
He knew 100% he was getting the bullet at that point.
This was a superb post. Thanks
Logic dictaded Manchester United (not SAF) chose someone who would suit the club. While certain managers would be a safer bet for instant success other managers would be a safer bet for stability and success over a long term.
SAF was most likely aware that Moyes was quite stubborn. He probably saw that as a good characteristic. Name one manager who is not stubborn and strongminded btw. United probably appointed Moyes because they thought what he had done with the means he had at Everton would make him a good succeeder at United. He could just take on where SAF left him.
I cannot see how SAF or anyone at the board at United could forsee that being stubborn would mean that he would foresake everything that was served for him at United AND destroy the player morale though his constant rambling about a squad that was too old.
The transfer window last summer was not only Moyes' fault. It was Ed Woodward's as well.
What I think should have been assessed more before the appointment of Moyes was his man management style and how adapting he was as a manager. His (with hindsight) apparent inability to adapt could be explained by the fact that he didn't have the means to play any other football then he did. I don't know.
It is however a completely different man managing style required at a club like United compared to Everton. This was what worried me the most when he was appointed.
These points and that he had not won much prior to his appointment were the biggest risks IMO.
Or - just for the sake of argument - there was no clause. I doubt this, though, given the timing of the announcement (they appear to have waited until it was mathematically impossible to get 4th). If there was no clause that would be the only plausible explanation for him - possibly - believing that he had the board's backing.
But, again, I find that highly unlikely. I think he knew well in advance that he was under threat. And it's possible to interpret what he has - allegedly - said about this in various ways. He may be furious they leaked the story to the press before briefing him more than anything. And he may resent them for not being more explicit with him. Let's say they decided to stay silent toward the end - just waiting for the clause to kick in. I can see that as a possibility, actually. And I can see how that might be perceived as unnecessarily evasive from Moyes' point of view.
What it looks like is that the board decided he should go - barring a miracle in the CL, perhaps - as early as Olympiakos. They then waited for the clause to kick in - in order to save money, not for any other reason. It was business, nothing personal, as the phrase goes - but I can easily see how this could appear to Moyes, who was out there, just walking towards the gallows, so to speak.
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