Cold War against China?

[AfonsoAlves]

Your analogies are poor. You love realpolitiks, others like holding accoubtable countries BS

I don't love realpolitiks. I just separate geopolitics and morality because...it's mostly mutually exclusive. Accepting reality doesn't mean I have to like it.

My judgement on how much they are a threat won't be judged on a moral level and anyone who does this in my field will quickly be sacked and never allowed to work in industry again.

 

[maniak]

Okay, this is like trying to argue Man City is a bigger threat right now than Liverpool because of what Man City is currently doing.

It's so boring and so unrelated to geopolitics.

It's entirely relativism.

It's a boring, pointless, stupid necessitiation on a concept that has never existed, in history, when assessing threat levels.

What is worse, a slap in the face from a chinese or a shot in the head by an american?

What a boring question, it's entirely relativism. Historically many more people have been slapped in the face, so these stupid and pointless hypotheticals are just a distraction from assessing threat levels.

 

[4bars]

I don't love realpolitiks. I just separate geopolitics and morality because...it's mostly mutually exclusive. Accepting reality doesn't mean I have to like it.

My judgement on how much they are a threat won't be judged on a moral level and anyone who does this in my field will quickly be sacked and never allowed to work in industry again.

No one denies reality. We just pointing out how morally bunkrupt is the US to ask rally against China saying that they are the bad guys for the only reason that they are bad. They should say that they need to be destroyed because we want to remain in power and do whatever we want that is keep killing and stealing for our own benefit

And yes, I understand in your industry. As I am not there I am free to do so. That is why I despise any body like military and police that only exist to enforce the power of the ones that rules. I understand its existance, but not when they go beyond its duty to harm who should not be harmed

 

[maniak]

No one denies reality. We just pointing out how morally bunkrupt is the US to ask rally against China saying that they are the bad guys for the only reason that they are bad. They should say that they need to be destroyed because we want to remain in power and do whatever we want that is keep killing and stealing for our own benefit

The thing is, americans could actually have a moral high ground right now. The only thing they would have to do is not support a genocide. It's a penalty without keeper and yet, they actively refuse to take the shot.

 

[4bars]

The thing is, americans could actually have a moral high ground right now. The only thing they would have to do is not support a genocide. It's a penalty without keeper and yet, they actively refuse to take the shot.

Maybe in the present, but there are a lot of examples that still far ahead of not being morally up there

 

[AfonsoAlves]

What is worse, a slap in the face from a chinese or a shot in the head by an american?

What a boring question, it's entirely relativism. Historically many more people have been slapped in the face, so these stupid and pointless hypotheticals are just a distraction from assessing threat levels.

You miss the point, again.

I am arguing from the POV of the West. American geopolitical wankery broadly speaking does not affect the day to day of the average joe in the West. Therefore they are not a threat to me.

Again, USA is not likely to support genocide in either Ukraine or Britain, so they are not a threat to me. China wants to do things that are at my detriment, therefore in the POV of the West they are a much bigger threat.

How do you not understand this?

 

[maniak]

Maybe in the present, but there are a lot of examples that still far ahead of not being morally up there

Sure, I'm thinking of the current president, who can only be responsible for the present. It would be so easy to do the right thing...

 

[maniak]

You miss the point, again.

I am arguing from the POV of the West. American geopolitical wankery broadly speaking does not affect the day to day of the average joe in the West. Therefore they are not a threat to me.

Again, USA is not likely to support genocide in either Ukraine or Britain, so they are not a threat to me. China wants to do things that are at my detriment, therefore in the POV of the West they are a much bigger threat.

How do you not understand this?

It's you who is missing the point.

I am in the west. I am a westerner. I am much more concerned about the US supporting genocide NOW than whatever china may or may not do in the future.

Does this mean we should not prepare about a future china aggression? Of course not, but when a family is being beaten to death in the street I will deal with that before worrying about the guy who is collection riffles in his house down the street.

If the guy beating the family tells me "don't worry, I'm just beating this brown family, I won't beat your family. Now let's both worry about the guy down the street" I will think he's a sociopath and I won't give two shits about his concerns.

 

[4bars]

You miss the point, again.

I am arguing from the POV of the West. American geopolitical wankery broadly speaking does not affect the day to day of the average joe in the West. Therefore they are not a threat to me.

Again, USA is not likely to support genocide in either Ukraine or Britain, so they are not a threat to me. China wants to do things that are at my detriment, therefore in the POV of the West they are a much bigger threat.

How do you not understand this?

Why is it in your detriment? isn't it in consumers detriment that US puts 100% on Chinese EV? whouldnt be all happy having cheaper cars and that the environment would be less affected? Why is China dominating the world economically and military be worse for the average Joe? Why I care if the big corporations in US make much more money than the big corporations in China? Because it will trickle down on the economy? Who I care who hoards the money?

Isn't capitalism the best solution and the invisible hand will make it all better for all of us?

Is a power struggle nothing else, and the ones on top of the west will make us all go to war if necessary if our lives (not theirs) needs to be sacrificed.

 

[Raven]

Regarding the top comment: You're seriously arguing that Trump's campaign and election based off "fake news" or whatever, is just as bad as no democracy and a dictator for life? Or how a rich person funding election campaigns to inject preferred policy is somehow worse than....no election and policy that is entirely based off the whims of the few with unilateral power?

Did I say every single one? Stop being facetious ffs. Like I said, middle management. You run a department? You get rich very very quickly.

Like how every single one of the Politiburo are Billionaires, every single one of the provincial level department leaders have hundreds of millions.

I can't go into more detail because of classification but the Western intelligence agencies used to literally pay junior-mid level civil servants their "bribe money" to get promoted and then repeat the cycle every few years until a significant amount of the middle-upper echelons of the CCP were basically bought out by the CIA.

Hell, there's very strong evidence to suggest that Bo Xi Lai, the guy in jail for corruption and the other touted candidate to succeed Hu aside from Xi, was actually an MI6 asset. Neil Heywood, an MI6 asset, was in charge of arranging everything from Bo's kids education in the UK, to buying property in the UK and organizing the families foreign assets before he was murdered. Things started to unravel and the house of cards began to fall so Bo's wife arranged for Chongqing's head of police to murder Neil Heywood.

These kind of operations don't exist without there being insane levels of corruption in the system. This could never happen in the West, where systemic civil servants and politicians are all foreign assets - despite what the media shouts about Putin and Trump.

No democracy you say? You sure about that?

Your source appears to be "trust me bro" further down, I won't be trusting you on this one unfortunately, you're indoctrinated.

 

[Raven]

But nobody is doing that! People are saying what values they prefer to live under, nobody is forcing you to accept that.

This whole turn into moral relativism is insane.

Imagine going in football, "Who is the bigger threat to Man Utd in a game of football, Juventus or current Liverpool?"

"Well, actually you know, Juventus have historically done some pretty bad things like corruption scandals whereas Liverpool are far more above board so yeah, Juve are a far bigger threat"

Just a pointless boring nonsensical argument that keeps getting parroted.

Yes. Someone literally did that further back in the thread. Talked about how western values are good and worth defending and how China doesn't give a shit about them.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

No democracy you say? You sure about that?

Your source appears to be "trust me bro" further down, I won't be trusting you on this one unfortunately, you're indoctrinated.

You think there's democracy in China?

Come on now...

You don't have to trust me - but I spent 6 years trying to understand China, I've learnt the language, speak write and read fluently, spend way too much time on Zhihu and Weibo, even spent some time living there (Although becoming more and more problematic to go there now, half a decade ago it was a bit easier for servicemen in UK to get Chinese Visa's but the political situation has meant a letter of invitation is no longer enough. Could never get permission to use diplomatic passport either).

I treat China as the biggest geopolitical threat to the West and treat them as such - with respect. You do not beat your rivals by downplaying them or assuming they're incompetent idiots, you understand their system inside and out, find all their strengths and weaknesses. You want me to talk about their strengths, I can do that, but systemic corruption is definetely one of their key weaknesses.

 

[Raven]

I don't love realpolitiks. I just separate geopolitics and morality because...it's mostly mutually exclusive. Accepting reality doesn't mean I have to like it.

My judgement on how much they are a threat won't be judged on a moral level and anyone who does this in my field will quickly be sacked and never allowed to work in industry again.

Yup, can't be letting silly little things like genocide get in the way of national interests.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

Yes. Someone literally did that further back in the thread. Talked about how western values are good and worth defending and how China doesn't give a shit about them.

That's their opinion. You don't have to agree with it.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

Yup, can't be letting silly little things like genocide get in the way of national interests.

It might pain you to accept this, and it's not something I exactly agree with on a moral basis either - but this has been the case for multiple millennia.

 

[4bars]

No democracy you say? You sure about that?

Your source appears to be "trust me bro" further down, I won't be trusting you on this one unfortunately, you're indoctrinated.

Sorry if I misunderstood you, but Are you suggesting that China is a democracy?

 

[John XII]

Since my original post, a few pages have gone by and I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what is china doing in terms of foreign policy that is worse than a genocide. I guess I'll keep waiting.

It's classified

 

[Raven]

You think there's democracy in China?

Come on now...

You don't have to trust me - but I spent 6 years trying to understand China, I've learnt the language, speak write and read fluently, spend way too much time on Zhihu and Weibo, even spent some time living there (Although becoming more and more problematic to go there now, half a decade ago it was a bit easier for servicemen in UK to get Chinese Visa's but the political situation has meant a letter of invitation is no longer enough. Could never get permission to use diplomatic passport either).

I treat China as the biggest geopolitical threat to the West and treat them as such - with respect. You do not beat your rivals by downplaying them or assuming they're incompetent idiots, you understand their system inside and out, find all their strengths and weaknesses. You want me to talk about their strengths, I can do that, but systemic corruption is definetely one of their key weaknesses.

There is literally democracy in China, that's not up for debate, it's just a fact. It's a system of democracy that I'm not familiar with but it exists and has the record for biggest ever election turnout apparently with 900 million people taking part a few years back.

I'm aware that you're fluent in Mandarin, something I find it very impressive. What I don't find impressive is the US security state propaganda that you come on here spewing regularly.

 

[Raven]

It might pain you to accept this, and it's not something I exactly agree with on a moral basis either - but this has been the case for multiple millennia.

Obviously? I'm not a total moron, I'm aware that this isn't the first genocide that has been supported by the powers that be for political/geopolitical gain. We have evolved as a species though and I really expect more from the supposed modern global moral authority.

 

[4bars]

There is literally democracy in China, that's not up for debate, it's just a fact. It's a system of democracy that I'm not familiar with but it exists and has the record for biggest ever election turnout apparently with 900 million people taking part a few years back.

I'm aware that you're fluent in Mandarin, something I find it very impressive. What I don't find impressive is the US security state propaganda that you come on here spewing regularly.

This 900 million people voted for local elections and for preapproved and prevetted candidates from the communist party. You might dispute how healthy are western democracy with all the corruption and propaganda. But come on. Qualifying china as democratic is being ridiculous now

 

[Raven]

Sorry if I misunderstood you, but Are you suggesting that China is a democracy?

No, you understood me correctly. They have a system of democracy, I don't understand it particularly well (haven't done much research) but it exists and to claim otherwise is just ignorance or lying.

 

[4bars]

No, you understood me correctly. They have a system of democracy, I don't understand it particularly well (haven't done much research) but it exists and to claim otherwise is just ignorance or lying.

It doesn't exist and you are the one claiming ignorance in the first place when you say you don't understand it particularly well,

 

[Raven]

This 900 million people voted for local elections and for preapproved and prevetted candidates from the communist party. You might dispute how healthy are western democracy with all the corruption and propaganda. But come on. Qualifying china as democratic is being ridiculous now

From what I can see, the communist party of China appears to be the government structure but that multiple parties exist within. From what little research I've done, it seems that these sub parties run against each other based on different policy ideas, sound familiar.

 

[VorZakone]

No, you understood me correctly. They have a system of democracy, I don't understand it particularly well (haven't done much research) but it exists and to claim otherwise is just ignorance or lying.

Wow, are you saying this with a straight face?

 

[Raven]

It doesn't exist and you are the one claiming ignorance in the first place when you say you don't understand it particularly well,

It does exist. It's a fact that China has a system of democracy.

 

[Raven]

Wow, are you saying this with a straight face?

Not anymore, I'm chuckling away at the unbelievable ignorance of a number of posters in here.

 

[maniak]

From what I can see, the communist party of China appears to be the government structure but that multiple parties exist within. From what little research I've done, it seems that these sub parties run against each other based on different policy ideas, sound familiar.

Mate, come on. You know by democracy most people mean free elections with free media, freedom of speech and candidates from all political areas. Sure, people in china can vote, but it's not a free democracy.

 

[4bars]

From what I can see, the communist party of China appears to be the government structure but that multiple parties exist within. From what little research I've done, it seems that these sub parties run against each other based on different policy ideas, sound familiar.

It does exist. It's a fact that China has a system of democracy.

Is no free decmocracy when the central party forbids people to present themselves in the elections. Then, between the ones are allowed, they can elect but the preapproval makes democracy vote of any significance

 

[VorZakone]

It does exist. It's a fact that China has a system of democracy.

By most international standards, China is the opposite of a democracy. The ruling Communist Party has held onto power for more than seven decades since the founding of the People's Republic of China. There is no separation of powers, independence of the judiciary, freedom of association, expression and opinion, periodic free and fair elections by universal suffrage or independent media -- which are essential elements of democracy defined by the United Nations.

Chinese activists calling for democracy are routinely silenced, harassed and jailed, including Nobel Peace Prize laureate Liu Xiaobo, who died in prison in 2017 after spending almost a quarter of his life behind bars.

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/12/08/china/china-us-democracy-summit-mic-intl-hnk/index.html

 

[Raven]

Mate, come on. You know by democracy most people mean free elections with free media, freedom of speech and candidates from all political areas. Sure, people in china can vote, but it's not a free democracy.

Which country do you believe these standards actually apply to? I've never been to or read about a country where any of this is true.

 

[maniak]

Which country do you believe these standards actually apply to? I've never been to or read about a country where any of this is true.

I live in one.

 

[4bars]

Which country do you believe these standards actually apply to? I've never been to or read about a country where any of this is true.

Again, you can dispute the health of other so called democracies but china is well below, officially and in practicality

 

[TwoSheds]

Since my original post, a few pages have gone by and I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what is china doing in terms of foreign policy that is worse than a genocide. I guess I'll keep waiting.

They're literally doing a genocide FFS, it's not difficult. As they've been doing in Tibet for decades now. And supporting all sorts of horrific war crimes in Ukraine. And performing disruptive and aggressive military manoeuvres all around Taiwan as a prelude to invading. It's also completely fecking irrelevant to the thread - it's a thread about a Cold War not a fecking genocide.

 

[Raven]

Is no free decmocracy when the central party forbids people to present themselves in the elections. Then, between the ones are allowed, they can elect but the preapproval makes democracy vote of any significance

So a system of democracy does exist then? Like I said. I'll be researching both China and Cuba's systems this week after just briefly touching on them recently. I'm happy to have a longer discussion about it once I've learned more.

 

[4bars]

So a system of democracy does exist then? Like I said. I'll be researching both China and Cuba's systems this week after just briefly touching on them recently. I'm happy to have a longer discussion about it once I've learned more.

No, what I said in the post you quoted from me is not democracy not a form no nothing. is a charade because anyone that disagrees straight opposite with the CCP is not allowed to present candidacy. And democracy is supposed to give access to elections to any political view

 

[Raven]

I live in one.

Where? I'd love to live in a real democracy with free press and free speech and all the other lovely bits you mentioned. The US is a sham democracy, the illusion of choice is there merely to keep the peasants from revolting. Britain is a little better but still a sham. I currently live in Ireland which is comfortably the most functional of the 3 but the media is far from free and the people are still being fecked in the ass.

Again, you can dispute the health of other so called democracies but china is well below, officially and in practicality

Is that really true though? Don't they have pretty much 0% homelessness, an extremely high level of home ownership, excellent infrastructure and great education? Almost feels like they're getting more out of their system of democracy than I'm getting out of my "free democracy".

 

[AfonsoAlves]

China's "democracy" is a funny term.

It's more democracy akin to Imperial Roman democracy - certain "positions" are electable (See: Tribune of the Plebs) and Chinese local governments is exactly like that.

The roles that allow for actual elections are basically communicators between local governments and local community/business interests. These people have no say in the way of policy, direction of the region nor have any real power. The mayoral positions, or positions where one can execute real change like policing, economic, local spending, healthcare policy etc are all non-elected.

These people are all pre-vetted by the CCP and the only real benefit you get from it as an "elected" official here is "mian zi" (Face, aka you look good to some and can be proud.)

All in all, you're basically voting to select from a bunch of pre-vetted candidates who you want to be complaints manager.

 

[Raven]

No, what I said in the post you quoted from me is not democracy not a form no nothing. is a charade because anyone that disagrees straight opposite with the CCP is not allowed to present candidacy. And democracy is supposed to give access to elections to any political view

There are multiple sub parties within the CPC but they do all have to subscribe to communism. Just as anyone who wants power in the West must subscribe to neoliberalism, otherwise you get Corbyned.

 

[4bars]

Is that really true though? Don't they have pretty much 0% homelessness, an extremely high level of home ownership, excellent infrastructure and great education? Almost feels like they're getting more out of their system of democracy than I'm getting out of my "free democracy".

Again, we can dispute results. Is it better democracy? is it better current democracy? Does democracy works the same in Europe US than Russia or middle east or China? Is it better under ceertain cirsumtances to have China's system? is because of culture? economic moment? South Korea had a big economic boom during its dictatorship. So Spain at a certain point. Is economy the ultimate pursue in a economy? maybe in certain moments yes? maybe not after (or yes). We can discuss many aspects that will be highly opinionated

What it can't be disputed is that China is not a democracy by any means of description

 

[4bars]

There are multiple sub parties within the CPC but they do all have to subscribe to communism. Just as anyone who wants power in the West must subscribe to neoliberalism, otherwise you get Corbyned.

Is not true because for your own example, Corbyn was allowed to a major party. Not counting other mini parties with very contrarian approach to neoliberalism that can present themselves if they want and that would not allowed in China

Again, you can discuss benefits of systems, how corrupt the democracies are and even if you can call them democracies, but China is not a democracy by any means