Cold War against China?

Raven said:
Where? I'd love to live in a real democracy with free press and free speech and all the other lovely bits you mentioned. The US is a sham democracy, the illusion of choice is there merely to keep the peasants from revolting. Britain is a little better but still a sham. I currently live in Ireland which is comfortably the most functional of the 3 but the media is far from free and the people are still being fecked in the ass.

Is that really true though? Don't they have pretty much 0% homelessness, an extremely high level of home ownership, excellent infrastructure and great education? Almost feels like they're getting more out of their system of democracy than I'm getting out of my "free democracy".
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Yikes dude.

Li Keqiang admitted that 600 million people live in absolute poverty.

High level of home ownership is a cultural thing as opppossed to a real tangible source of wealth. What ends up happening is 4 grandparents, two parents all chip in for their 1 kid to be able to buy a home. Also, in big cities its becoming more and more unaffordable. You think Dublin/London/Toronto/NYC is expensive? Shanghai makes San Francisco real estate seem like buying a council house from Middlesborough.

also, because of this, the bubble of Chinese real estate market is a shit storm that's causing a debt bubble bigger than 2007 US mortgage securities failure. How they navigate that remains to be seen.

Education system in China is corrupt. Teachers don't teach the full curriculum in class and have a concept of "Bu ke" which directly translated means, "covering classes." They charge 100RMB in urban areas per hour for bu ke sessions where the rest of the curriculum is taught, and kids who cannot afford this are screwed.
 
Raven said:
Where? I'd love to live in a real democracy with free press and free speech and all the other lovely bits you mentioned. The US is a sham democracy, the illusion of choice is there merely to keep the peasants from revolting. Britain is a little better but still a sham. I currently live in Ireland which is comfortably the most functional of the 3 but the media is far from free and the people are still being fecked in the ass.

Is that really true though? Don't they have pretty much 0% homelessness, an extremely high level of home ownership, excellent infrastructure and great education? Almost feels like they're getting more out of their system of democracy than I'm getting out of my "free democracy".
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So much of what you criticize of Western countries exists in China too if not worse. Is the implication here that China has more free media than Ireland or the UK? Are you saying all this with a straight face?
 
4bars said:
Again, we can dispute results. Is it better democracy? is it better current democracy? Does democracy works the same in Europe US than Russia or middle east or China? Is it better under ceertain cirsumtances to have China's system? is because of culture? economic moment? South Korea had a big economic boom during its dictatorship. So Spain at a certain point. Is economy the ultimate pursue in a economy? maybe in certain moments yes? maybe not after (or yes). We can discuss many aspects that will be highly opinionated

What it can't be disputed is that China is not a democracy by any means of description
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Except it's literally a system of democracy so that can't be disputed. Which is a better democracy is a question that is definitely up for debate and once I've done more research into the topic I'll be back. Right now, I see one system of democracy working well for it's citizens and one that is systematically robbing it's citizens whilst setting fire to the rest of the world. I don't know anyone that asked for houses to become unaffordable, I don't know anyone that asked for healthcare to become inaccessible and I don't know anyone that asked for the education system to crumble... Yet here we are... In a free democracy.
 
Raven said:
Except it's literally a system of democracy so that can't be disputed. Which is a better democracy is a question that is definitely up for debate and once I've done more research into the topic I'll be back. Right now, I see one system of democracy working well for it's citizens and one that is systematically robbing it's citizens whilst setting fire to the rest of the world. I don't know anyone that asked for houses to become unaffordable, I don't know anyone that asked for healthcare to become inaccessible and I don't know anyone that asked for the education system to crumble... Yet here we are... In a free democracy.
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Maybe you could also do some research on such disappearances for us:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappearance_of_Peng_Shuai
 
Raven said:
Except it's literally a system of democracy so that can't be disputed. Which is a better democracy is a question that is definitely up for debate and once I've done more research into the topic I'll be back. Right now, I see one system of democracy working well for it's citizens and one that is systematically robbing it's citizens whilst setting fire to the rest of the world. I don't know anyone that asked for houses to become unaffordable, I don't know anyone that asked for healthcare to become inaccessible and I don't know anyone that asked for the education system to crumble... Yet here we are... In a free democracy.
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You're speaking from a position of ignorance.

Life in China is...not good at the moment. The economy is in the gutter, theres deflation, a huge real estate bubble and that's just for the middle class.

Rural Hukou citizens have feck all, no healthcare, no education.

China is basically the American system on steroids, especially when it comes to its private sector.

Do you generally believe China does well for its citizens? Theres fecking 30% youth un-employment right now.
 
4bars said:
Is not true because for your own example, Corbyn was allowed to a major party. Not counting other mini parties with very contrarian approach to neoliberalism that can present themselves if they want and that would not allowed in China

Again, you can discuss benefits of systems, how corrupt the democracies are and even if you can call them democracies, but China is not a democracy by any means
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Where was the free press? How about the British general who said he would stage a military coup if Corbyn ever became prime minister? What about the foreign election interference? What about the bad faith actors within his own party? He was allowed to run as a show. He was never going to be allowed to run the country.
 
@Raven

Watch the series by South China Morning Post (SCMP, also a CCP state media org so you can't accuse of Western Bias), on Chinese rural poverty.



 
Raven said:
Where was the free press? How about the British general who said he would stage a military coup if Corbyn ever became prime minister? What about the foreign election interference? What about the bad faith actors within his own party? He was allowed to run as a show. He was never going to be allowed to run the country.
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He didn't say this. He said they would resign - because Corbyn's policy at that point was practically self sabotage.
 
Raven said:
Except it's literally a system of democracy so that can't be disputed. Which is a better democracy is a question that is definitely up for debate and once I've done more research into the topic I'll be back. Right now, I see one system of democracy working well for it's citizens and one that is systematically robbing it's citizens whilst setting fire to the rest of the world. I don't know anyone that asked for houses to become unaffordable, I don't know anyone that asked for healthcare to become inaccessible and I don't know anyone that asked for the education system to crumble... Yet here we are... In a free democracy.
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"System of democracy" sounds like "concepts of a plan". A deeply unserious argument.
 
VorZakone said:
Maybe you could also do some research on such disappearances for us:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappearance_of_Peng_Shuai
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I will do. Not entirely sure what it has to do with China's system of democracy, but sure.
AfonsoAlves said:
You're speaking from a position of ignorance.

Life in China is...not good at the moment. The economy is in the gutter, theres deflation, a huge real estate bubble and that's just for the middle class.

Rural Hukou citizens have feck all, no healthcare, no education.

China is basically the American system on steroids, especially when it comes to its private sector.

Do you generally believe China does well for its citizens? Theres fecking 30% youth un-employment right now.
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I've said as much myself, like I said, I will looking to educate myself on it this week. I naturally won't be taking the word of security state asset on the matter though. As I told @4bars, I'm happy to revisit this once I've read more on the topic.
 
State security asset

Not a bad job title, would love it if people called me that in real life :lol:
 
Raven said:
Where? I'd love to live in a real democracy with free press and free speech and all the other lovely bits you mentioned. The US is a sham democracy, the illusion of choice is there merely to keep the peasants from revolting. Britain is a little better but still a sham. I currently live in Ireland which is comfortably the most functional of the 3 but the media is far from free and the people are still being fecked in the ass.
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Portugal.
 
Raven said:
Except it's literally a system of democracy so that can't be disputed. Which is a better democracy is a question that is definitely up for debate and once I've done more research into the topic I'll be back. Right now, I see one system of democracy working well for it's citizens and one that is systematically robbing it's citizens whilst setting fire to the rest of the world. I don't know anyone that asked for houses to become unaffordable, I don't know anyone that asked for healthcare to become inaccessible and I don't know anyone that asked for the education system to crumble... Yet here we are... In a free democracy.
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Except is literally the opposite of a system of democracy. Voting doesn't make something a democracy

Raven said:
Where was the free press? How about the British general who said he would stage a military coup if Corbyn ever became prime minister? What about the foreign election interference? What about the bad faith actors within his own party? He was allowed to run as a show. He was never going to be allowed to run the country.
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Again for I don't know how many times, I am not entering to dispute the health of so called democracies. We can discuss at length and agree in some (maybe many) points. But regarding China, is not a democracy
 
maniak said:
Portugal.
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I do have quite a lot of respect for Portugal (especially the manner in which they ejected the fascists that came before them) and have considered moving there previously actually as it happens. I'd be very skeptical that Portugal actually upholds the standards you set out but am happy to be proven wrong.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
Your own article says “there would be mass resignations” as the only thing of substance.
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Nope.

“The Army just wouldn’t stand for it. The general staff would not allow a prime minister to jeopardise the security of this country and I think people would use whatever means possible, fair or foul to prevent that. You can’t put a maverick in charge of a country’s security."
 
TwoSheds said:
They're literally doing a genocide FFS, it's not difficult. As they've been doing in Tibet for decades now. And supporting all sorts of horrific war crimes in Ukraine. And performing disruptive and aggressive military manoeuvres all around Taiwan as a prelude to invading. It's also completely fecking irrelevant to the thread - it's a thread about a Cold War not a fecking genocide.
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I simply commented I would be much more sympathetic to american concerns about the dangers china poses to the world if they themselves weren't engaged in a brutal genocide.
 
Raven said:
I do have quite a lot of respect for Portugal (especially the manner in which they ejected the fascists that came before them) and have considered moving there previously actually as it happens. I'd be very skeptical that Portugal actually upholds the standards you set out but am happy to be proven wrong.
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Why are you skeptical?
 
maniak said:
I simply commented I would be much more sympathetic to american concerns about the dangers china poses to the world if they themselves weren't engaged in a brutal genocide.
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That's great, perhaps you can stop posting now if you've nothing else to say.
 
TwoSheds said:
That's great, perhaps you can stop posting now if you've nothing else to say.
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neil-degrass-tyson-science.gif
 
Raven said:
Because, as far as I've seen, it doesn't exist anywhere else. Like I say, I'm happy to be proven wrong.
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What exactly are you skeptical of? Plurality in media? Limitations of free speech?
 
maniak said:
What exactly are you skeptical of? Plurality in media? Limitations of free speech?
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That there's a truly free press would be my main concern.

Edit: I would also be concerned about the influence of X and the potential for being allowed to print lies (like everywhere else I've been).
 
Raven said:
That there's a truly free press would be my main concern.
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We have daily tv programs and newspaper opinion articles from members and ex-members of all parties, from communists to christian conservatives.
 
maniak said:
We have daily tv programs and newspaper opinion articles from members and ex-members of all parties, from communists to christian conservatives.
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It seems I got my edit in after you started your post.
 
Raven said:
So a system of democracy does exist then? Like I said. I'll be researching both China and Cuba's systems this week after just briefly touching on them recently. I'm happy to have a longer discussion about it once I've learned more.
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Have you any idea how this reads to others?! You're basically arguing with people about a subject you openly admit to not knowing much about and then telling them you will come back after you have read up more about it. .

There is so much wrong with that I don't know where to start.

Firstly, the arrogance and shamelessness to admit you don't really know what the feck you're talking about to people who live or have lived and experienced the issues, yet you still continue to argue with them.

Then you have the audacity to say you will come back later after researching things more.

fecking pathetic. Why don't you do what any normal person would do and read a thread and learn and only interject when you have something relevant to say? Or do the better thing, and if it's something you don't know anything about, like you have clearly admitted multiple times, instead of saying you will go off and research things just to fecking argue, again with people who have actual experience not just some web pages they have googled, better to just not post at all.

I know little about this which is why I read it and want to learn from posters and links provided. I just honestly found it the fecking most pathetic and saddest thing I've ever seen on the internet where you stop a reply to you while you say you are going off to research it more to give a response. Honestly :lol:

It's almost as bad as Grinner lecturing everyone about his fecking make believe endeavours to aid the Labour party. (We need a wanker emoji)
 
langster said:
Have you any idea how this reads to others?! You're basically arguing with people about a subject you openly admit to not knowing much about and then telling them you will come back after you have read up more about it. .

There is so much wrong with that I don't know where to start.

Firstly, the arrogance and shamelessness to admit you don't really know what the feck you're talking about to people who live or have lived and experienced the issues, yet you still continue to argue with them.

Then you have the audacity to say you will come back later after researching things more.

fecking pathetic. Why don't you do what any normal person would do and read a thread and learn and only interject when you have something relevant to say? Or do the better thing, and if it's something you don't know anything about, like you have clearly admitted multiple times, instead of saying you will go off and research things just to fecking argue, again with people who have actual experience not just some web pages they have googled, better to just not post at all.

I know little about this which is why I read it and want to learn from posters and links provided. I just honestly found it the fecking most pathetic and saddest thing I've ever seen on the internet where you stop a reply to you while you say you are going off to research it more to give a response. Honestly :lol:

It's almost as bad as Grinner lecturing everyone about his fecking make believe endeavours to aid the Labour party. (We need a wanker emoji)
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For me this take the cake

Raven said:
No, you understood me correctly. They have a system of democracy, I don't understand it particularly well (haven't done much research) but it exists and to claim otherwise is just ignorance or lying.
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langster said:
Have you any idea how this reads to others?! You're basically arguing with people about a subject you openly admit to not knowing much about and then telling them you will come back after you have read up more about it. .

There is so much wrong with that I don't know where to start.

Firstly, the arrogance and shamelessness to admit you don't really know what the feck you're talking about to people who live or have lived and experienced the issues, yet you still continue to argue with them.

Then you have the audacity to say you will come back later after researching things more.

fecking pathetic. Why don't you do what any normal person would do and read a thread and learn and only interject when you have something relevant to say? Or do the better thing, and if it's something you don't know anything about, like you have clearly admitted multiple times, instead of saying you will go off and research things just to fecking argue, again with people who have actual experience not just some web pages they have googled, better to just not post at all.

I know little about this which is why I read it and want to learn from posters and links provided. I just honestly found it the fecking most pathetic and saddest thing I've ever seen on the internet where you stop a reply to you while you say you are going off to research it more to give a response. Honestly :lol:

It's almost as bad as Grinner lecturing everyone about his fecking make believe endeavours to aid the Labour party. (We need a wanker emoji)
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So they don't have any system of democracy? That's what you're saying?
 
Raven said:
So they don't have any system of democracy? That's what you're saying?
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You've had a mare here. Clearly you have never lived in the US or China and don't know much about either country so maybe just take the L and stop derailing the thread.
 
Taking a thread off topic
oneniltothearsenal said:
You've had a mare here. Clearly you have never lived in the US or China and don't know much about either country so maybe just take the L and stop derailing the thread.
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It's a thread about the US and China, I'm speaking about the US and China. I'll continue to comment as I please. Have a nice day
 
Raven said:
You may take your own advice. I was contesting someone stating that there is NO democracy in China.
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Do you think mugabes Zimbabwe, al Assad’s Syria and putins russia are democracies?

Or if we go back further, imperial Rome?
 
I guess it's sort of like if ancient Athenian citizen democracy were accompanied by terrifying levels of surveillance and coercion of the citizens by the leadership (who have the same powers as all the magistracies, councils, assemblies etc. of ancient Athens combined in one or a handful of people), if the citizens had to pretend to be communist and likely in on all kinds of state sponsored corruption, and if the study of philosophy had been essentially banned throughout Athens. Close.
 
TwoSheds said:
I guess it's sort of like if ancient Athenian citizen democracy were accompanied by terrifying levels of surveillance and coercion of the citizens by the leadership (who have the same powers as all the magistracies, councils, assemblies etc. of ancient Athens combined in one or a handful of people), if the citizens had to pretend to be communist and likely in on all kinds of state sponsored corruption, and if the study of philosophy had been essentially banned throughout Athens. Close.
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This is the exact hyper exaggeration that doesn't actually exist in day to day China though (for the vast majority). Most don't consider themselves communist never mind pretend and CCP membership is quite low.

As for the discussion on 'democracy' it's important to separate it out between local and state level. Obviously China at the state level is authorative but there's some democracy at local level. Given the state can control the scope and occurrence of those discussions can it truly be considered democratic? Yes and no.

It's funny but as someone who used to go to local labour (UK) party meetings there's a surprising similarity to China in the control from a central party function. It's ruled like an authorative party.

The question here shouldn't be democracy because really none of us have that to a significant extent. The question is just how authoritative the state is and China is leaps and bounds ahead even if the west is slowly creeping in the wrong direction.
 
sglowrider said:
Ultimately, there are no good guys v bad guys. All sides think they are right when it comes to conflict—even Al Qaeda or ISIS think they are morally correct or they wouldnt have gone to fight for their cause.

The key is trying to understand the other side and what motivates them if you are trying to descalate or avoid any conflicts. Know their history, their fears and end goals. Life isnt some zero-sum game like a Risk.
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I don't find this kind of moral relativism very progressive, and it also assumes irrational players respond in the same way as rational ones.

Al Qaeda and ISIS thinks the average Westerner is a godless robot who is better off dead. Good luck agreeing to split the difference with those guys. Sometimes the reason to understand something, is to defeat it, not appease it.

I would argue that there are some political or cultural diseases, like Nazism or Putinism, that just have to be defeated for the sake of everyone else.
 
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nickm said:
I don't find this kind of moral relativism very progressive.

Al Qaeda and ISIS thinks the average Westerner is a godless robot who is better off dead. Good luck agreeing to split the difference with those guys. Sometimes the reason to understand something, is to defeat it.

I would argue that there are some political or cultural diseases, like Nazism, that just have to be defeated for the sake of everyone else.
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That might well be true, but why then does the West support them? The "enemy of my enemy is my friend" at play in Syria again. The Turks arranged it with DC backing and obvious Israeli willingness, and then it just happened: that an ISIS/AQ sect ran the boards and were PR brushed by the Western media. To the triumphant "Assad, the tyrant, is gone" to the farcical "and we'll stay in Syria until the tyrants - ISIS/AQ - we just backed to oust him are also gone". This is a genuine sequence of historical events. It is not made up. Despite how mental it sounds.

It goes back a long way. You back these people constantly and then they bomb your nations and then we are at war with whomever again. USSR/Afghanistan (Mujaheddin, backed by the West) and then 9/11 from which the terrorists were trained in Afghanistan by precisely the same forces. Then the Arab Spring. Cells inculcated in the West, of these fighters, then sent abroad which came back and bombed the shit out of Europe.

Keep repeating the same old mistakes and expecting different outcomes. I would argue that this is a disease that needs to be defeated for the sake of everyone.
 
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