Club Sale | It’s done!

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Kaos said:
See it's interesting when you see it through that lens. How would you say the US or certain parts of Europe fare in comparison to Qatar or the Emirates with the 'basic needs' core of the pyramid?
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Not good. When you are hesitant to walk down the streets at night say after 9pm/dark or you don't see women jogging at night....
Or even sending your kids to school, worried about mass shooters.

Political discussions or proclamations of freedom/liberty etc are just that ... political when the reality is that there are millions of homeless, opioid addicts struggling etc that are addressed. The approach is always to deflect onto others -- wars.

Or even the war on drugs. Attack the suppliers when you aren't solving the demand issue at home. So there is a tendency to blame others especially foreign countries first than to look within yourself and actually solve the issues domestically ie deflection.
 
sglowrider said:
I always judge a gov't ability to govern according to Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.

maslow-pyramid.jpg


If you cant offer the most basic needs, then its failing.
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It's shaped as a pyramid but you don't necessarily need to have them in order. For example if your Self Actualization is to become a monk (it's your calling), you only need purple, green and orange. If your Self Actualization is to become Pep Guardiola you only need orange and money (it's not even in the Pyramid).
 
YouOnlyLiveTwice said:
Why is the US always brought up as a counter point to criticism of non-western countries? Like everyone in the so called "west" sees them as their gods or whatever.
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How does it matter anyway when its not the US government or the UK government bidding on the team? If this was some random rich Qatari dinneware company, no one would really care about the rep of the country they're from. Its because its the Qatari government (basically) bidding, obviously their recent history will be brought up. You can't compare a oil country that is anti LGTBQ/Womens rights to a company based out of any western nation. If it were the US government buying United, then yes, their recent history would also cast a shadow on things.
 
Wibble said:
Housemaids emprisoned for the term of their contract and not allowed out of the house unless travelling with their host family - there were 2 on our compound where they weren't even allowed to write home and we secretly mailed letters for them occasionally so at least their kids/family knew theye were alive. Many sexually abused as well. Terrible treatment of workers from places like India, Pakistan. Worker deaths convered up or miss reported. Abominable and systematic mistreatment of women, generally treated like property. Zero worker protection, even for western expats e.g. a collegue of my wife's was a councillor and she was deported for refusing to tell her boss which girl she was helping was raped by a family member so he could tell her family who had royal connections. Debt treated as a crime with virtually no legal recourse especially for expats. The law in general is more about who you know than what you did/didn't do. I know a member of the Caf who was imprisoned for someone else's debt until they paid it off on the basis that he was working on the same project. No legal connection or financial guarantees involved - just someone with royal connections didn't want to lose money and didn't care who paid for it.
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Your only valid point is about housemaid treatment and that's not limited to the middle east but because of income disparity, it is a larger issue and there is a lopsided power dynamic. Similar cases have happened here in the US and it's not the norm in the middle east. Just so you know, mistreating servants or maids is an issue anywhere there is a massive income disparity: Africa, Pakistan, India etc are all included in this list.

As for the rest, I know you that you know

Sexual abuse -- is a much, much bigger problem in the west. There is every statistic out there to prove that
Terrible treatment of migrant workers -- yeah as if migrant workers are being treated like regular citizens in Europe and America. Specifically labor and lower class migrants. Please don't make me pull up some links on how they are treated.
Mistreatment of women, treated like property -- No idea where you got this from but probably some lazy form of "arab=opressed women" analysis you got in your head. Qatar and UAE in particular are some of the safest places for women. Women are independent and even dress western ffs. Do you realize how many British women work there? As I said earlier statistics for women getting raped or sexually harassed is far lower in the middle east as well.

I agree the law can be more about who you know but again that is not unique to the middle east. This sort of thing is common in a lot of countries that don't have a strong legal system like the west which takes years to develop.

The most important part is all of these things are crimes and not some legal mandate for the middle east or the Qatari government. The fact you just casually said women are mistreated in Dubai (where you stayed) really makes me question if you haven't already made up your mind on this.
 
sglowrider said:
Not good. When you are hesitant to walk down the streets at night say after 9pm/dark or you don't see women jogging at night....
Or even sending your kids to school, worried about mass shooters.
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Precisely. Often many are quick to virtue signal about the human rights of other nations, yet would feel hesitant allowing their daughters to be alone outside at night, their black sons to be driving or even taking their feckin kids to school. Some would do well to look closer to home before resorting to lazy generalisations and reductionism.
 
shamans said:
For Alonzo had not left his high street let alone England to actually know about these countries.
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I’m not from England. But anyway. Using “where women are pretty much active parts of society” aa proof of a progressive society is objectively hilarious.
 
JPB said:
This whole buying and selling of clubs in England should be stopped anyway. Imagine some rich cnut coming to Germany and turning Bayern Munich or Dortmund into their play thing. People would riot. United fans just lying down and taking it up the a***
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You have 6billion spare change laying around? Otherwise, how do you propose getting rid of the Glazers?

Unless you think they should stay?
 
shamans said:
Your only valid point is about housemaid treatment and that's not limited to the middle east but because of income disparity, it is a larger issue and there is a lopsided power dynamic. Similar cases have happened here in the US and it's not the norm in the middle east. Just so you know, mistreating servants or maids is an issue anywhere there is a massive income disparity: Africa, Pakistan, India etc are all included in this list.

As for the rest, I know you that you know

Sexual abuse -- is a much, much bigger problem in the west. There is every statistic out there to prove that
Terrible treatment of migrant workers -- yeah as if migrant workers are being treated like regular citizens in Europe and America. Specifically labor and lower class migrants. Please don't make me pull up some links on how they are treated.
Mistreatment of women, treated like property -- No idea where you got this from but probably some lazy form of "arab=opressed women" analysis you got in your head. Qatar and UAE in particular are some of the safest places for women. Women are independent and even dress western ffs. Do you realize how many British women work there? As I said earlier statistics for women getting raped or sexually harassed is far lower in the middle east as well.

I agree the law can be more about who you know but again that is not unique to the middle east. This sort of thing is common in a lot of countries that don't have a strong legal system like the west which takes years to develop.

The most important part is all of these things are crimes and not some legal mandate for the middle east or the Qatari government. The fact you just casually said women are mistreated in Dubai (where you stayed) really makes me question if you haven't already made up your mind on this.
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Oh the developed western nations aren't immune to it either. Canadians here would recognise the name Marco Muzzo - a typical and sadly not uncommon example of how economic privilege absolves those of tragic crimes.
 
atkar83 said:
How does it matter anyway when its not the US government or the UK government bidding on the team? If this was some random rich Qatari dinneware company, no one would really care about the rep of the country they're from. Its because its the Qatari government (basically) bidding, obviously their recent history will be brought up. You can't compare a oil country that is anti LGTBQ/Womens rights to a company based out of any western nation. If it were the US government buying United, then yes, their recent history would also cast a shadow on things.
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First of all Qatar is a gas country not oil and second because people are listing out "bad things that happens in Qatar" as if it is unique to them. If there is a problem in Qatar it's not like their government is actively endorsing it which is what matters.

and as I said earlier, I am against state owned clubs in general but very few people have said that. It's more "Qatar bad" which is being countered.
 
atkar83 said:
How does it matter anyway when its not the US government or the UK government bidding on the team? If this was some random rich Qatari dinneware company, no one would really care about the rep of the country they're from. Its because its the Qatari government (basically) bidding, obviously their recent history will be brought up. You can't compare a oil country that is anti LGTBQ/Womens rights to a company based out of any western nation. If it were the US government buying United, then yes, their recent history would also cast a shadow on things.
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Well, that's another point. But this discussion is just crazy now. I hear people defending or at least making the excuse that other nations does it so it is whatever. All the articles i've read about migrant workers in Qatar are most likely propaganda in these peoples eyes, so i'm not even sure the different sides are discussing on the same terms/reality.
 
Kaos said:
It would actually be refreshing and dare I say it - welcoming if one of the lesser German sides were owned by an ambitious billionaire. Might instill some life into the predictable one-horse dozefest that's the Bundesliga :lol:
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Yeah you're just a bit weird I think sorry.
It just sounds like you want riches and wealth by any means necessary. Which I don't understand, because even if someone like Qatar does come in and buy us, they won't simply be able to deliver us endless trucks full of gold, diamonds and cash to the doorstep.
We'll still only be able to spend what the club brings in or am I wrong? So what's the point? If we do spend their money, it will have to be illegally? Just like City did and then we'll be fecked too.
 
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Kaos said:
Precisely. Often many are quick to virtue signal about the human rights of other nations, yet would feel hesitant allowing their daughters to be alone outside at night, their black sons to be driving or even taking their feckin kids to school. Some would do well to look closer to home before resorting to lazy generalisations and reductionism.
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There was just a mass shooting at a rival university of mine a day ago. The usual excuse for fixing the gun problem is ''its complicated''. The reality is its corruption and between the gun lobby owning Congress and the dumbass culture of thinking you are entitled to own a gun regardless, is just dumb.

There are so many problems everywhere including in the US. Rather than pontificate/lecture to those abroad, why not fix its own problem first? Own up to it, fix it rather than give excuses and deflect?
 
If you want a good laugh, listen to Goldbridge tying himself in knots over the question of why Jim Radcliffe potential owning Nice and Utd would be different than Qatar owning PSG and United. Clearly, the superchat was stating that it should be no different (whether or not that is true, I have no idea), and Goldbridge started getting defensive, saying he had a right to his own opinion. I quite enjoy the United Stand, but it is amusing seeing him drive himself into argumentative cul-de-sacs.
 
JPB said:
Yeah you're just a bit weird I think sorry.
It just sounds like you want riches and wealth by any means necessary. Which I don't understand, because even if someone like Qatar does come in and buy us, they won't simply be able to deliver us endless trucks full of gold, diamonds and cash to the doorstep.
We'll still only be able to spend what the club brings in or am I wrong? So what's the point? If we do spend they're money, it will have to be illegally? Just like City did and then we'll be fecked too.
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We have a stadium that's falling apart. At least we'd fix that.
 
tenpoless said:
It's shaped as a pyramid but you don't necessarily need to have them in order. For example if your Self Actualization is to become a monk (it's your calling), you only need purple, green and orange. If your Self Actualization is to become Pep Guardiola you only need orange and money (it's not even in the Pyramid).
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:lol: :lol:
 
JPB said:
Yeah you're just a bit weird I think sorry.
It just sounds like you want riches and wealth by any means necessary. Which I don't understand, because even if someone like Qatar does come in and buy us, they won't simply be able to deliver us endless trucks full of gold, diamonds and cash to the doorstep.
We'll still only be able to spend what the club brings in or am I wrong? So what's the point? If we do spend they're money, it will have to be illegally? Just like City did and then we'll be fecked too.
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I don't think you have a strong grasp of finance. Or why City did what it did.

An almost cartoonish idea of how the world works.
 
JPB said:
Yeah you're just a bit weird I think sorry.
It just sounds like you want riches and wealth by any means necessary. Which I don't understand, because even if someone like Qatar does come in and buy us, they won't simply be able to deliver us endless trucks full of gold, diamonds and cash to the doorstep.
We'll still only be able to spend what the club brings in or am I wrong? So what's the point? If we do spend they're money, it will have to be illegally? Just like City did and we'll be fecked too.
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The Bundesliga comment was tongue in cheek in case you hadn't noticed.

And no I don't want us to have filthy rich owners for the sake of it. I don't like the idea of state-owned clubs but this looks to be the competitive reality going forward.

And the point isn't to have us make an Mbappe like signing every window. Its to ensure we have the capital to invest in refreshing the ailing infrastructure - building a new stadium, world leading training facilities and hiring the best possible staff. And this is all while ensuring they don't riddle the club with huge amounts of debt nor take money out of the club. To me the Qataris seem like they'd honour those obligations as they'd be cash rich and not have to resort to teaming up with heinous investment banks. The club would continue to fund its business via its already lucrative revenue which wouldn't be siphoned into making loan interest payments (as with the Glazers), or paying off a huge debt for a new stadium like Arsenal and Spurs are doing. For transfers we'd still comfortably operate within FFP and wouldn't need to resort to City-esque financial dark arts since we already are so lucrative.
 
Kaos said:
See it's interesting when you see it through that lens. How would you say the US or certain parts of Europe fare in comparison to Qatar or the Emirates with the 'basic needs' core of the pyramid?
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Well depends who you ask. If you're a conservative Muslim man or an expat then the Gulf is fantastic for you.

Are people seriously trying to argue that the Arab world is a better place for women or migrant workers than the West?
 
shamans said:
First of all Qatar is a gas country not oil and second because people are listing out "bad things that happens in Qatar" as if it is unique to them. If there is a problem in Qatar it's not like their government is actively endorsing it which is what matters.

and as I said earlier, I am against state owned clubs in general but very few people have said that. It's more "Qatar bad" which is being countered.
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Sure, you can defend Qatar if you like, but others using the US or any other western nation as a 'whataboutism' doesn't work because its not a western nation buying the team.
 
VP said:
Are people seriously trying to argue that the Arab world is a better place for women or migrant workers than the West?
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The problem with these discussions and this dumpster thread are that people make binary choices or accusations -- when the world really is 80% variance of grey.

It's not a yes or no answer but a ''it depends...'' discussion.
 
VP said:
Well depends who you ask. If you're a conservative Muslim man or an expat then the Gulf is fantastic for you.

Are people seriously trying to argue that the Arab world is a better place for women or migrant workers than the West?
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They sure are. The amount of hyperbole and generalizations coming them are just what they seem to be fighting against. It's the world of the internet.
 
VP said:
Well depends who you ask. If you're a conservative Muslim man or an expat then the Gulf is fantastic for you.

Are people seriously trying to argue that the Arab world is a better place for women or migrant workers than the West?
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Why have you narrowed it down to those two niche groups? Why not ask Western women working and living in those countries how safe and comfortable they feel there? And better yet - ask them to compare it to their cities back home.
 
atkar83 said:
Sure, you can defend Qatar if you like, but others using the US or any other western nation as a 'whataboutism' doesn't work because its not a western nation buying the team.
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But you can bet your bottom dollar that if an investment firm linked to the US government we're frontrunners in buying our club you wouldn't hear the same concern or manufactured outrage over human rights, women's rights and racism.
 
shamans said:
Meanwhile in England, France and Italy migrant workers and laborers are fully functioning members of society living in pretty much the same neighborhoods as the local white folk. In fact, some would have you believe there's a country called America where even the locals (blacks) are living in underrepresented neighborhoods with poorer schools and poorer access to healthcare!
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by all means make a reasoned point if you disagree with what I wrote

but there is nothing of any substance to respond to here
 
Kaos said:
But you can bet your bottom dollar that if an investment firm linked to the US government we're frontrunners in buying our club you wouldn't hear the same concern or manufactured outrage over human rights, women's rights and racism.
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I guess we'll just have to wait for the day when the The Export–Import Bank of the United States is bidding to buy a football club in order to find out.
 
VP said:
Well depends who you ask. If you're a conservative Muslim man or an expat then the Gulf is fantastic for you.

Are people seriously trying to argue that the Arab world is a better place for women or migrant workers than the West?
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The Arab world is pretty big but most of the gulf states for some women are better places to live at. I know more women who moved to middle east and felt much safer and freer. Of course that is because of who I surround myself but the stats are out there as well. It's not a one fits all but anyone who says Arab world is worse for women as a final statement ain't being genuine.
 
shamans said:
Did I miss something? You said migrant workers are not an equal part of society in the middle east and this is in response to that
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It's just whataboutism and contributes nothing to the discussion

Everyone in the world is aware that migrants are treated poorly in lots of countries. Some worse than others, and some a lot lot worse.

What are you contributing by pointing that out? The square root of feckall.
 
Kaos said:
The Bundesliga comment was tongue in cheek in case you hadn't noticed.

And no I don't want us to have filthy rich owners for the sake of it. I don't like the idea of state-owned clubs but this looks to be the competitive reality going forward.

And the point isn't to have us make an Mbappe like signing every window. Its to ensure we have the capital to invest in refreshing the ailing infrastructure - building a new stadium, world leading training facilities and hiring the best possible staff. And this is all while ensuring they don't riddle the club with huge amounts of debt nor take money out of the club. To me the Qataris seem like they'd honour those obligations as they'd be cash rich and not have to resort to teaming up with heinous investment banks. The club would continue to fund its business via its already lucrative revenue which wouldn't be siphoned into making loan interest payments (as with the Glazers), or paying off a huge debt for a new stadium like Arsenal and Spurs are doing. For transfers we'd still comfortably operate within FFP and wouldn't need to resort to City-esque financial dark arts since we already are so lucrative.
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I'll take anyone who has potential to be a fair owner and won't keep taking money out of the clubs pocket. I just don't want them to be unnecessarily stupid rich. Because I don't think we need that. Like I've said before we're rich enough as it is. We generate more money than anyone else. Our own money should be enough easily. Bayern are competing easily with the likes of PSG, but Bayern aren't owned by some wealthy state or billionaire. So Bayern can do it but we can't? I'm pretty sure we generate more money than Bayern. If not we're pretty close. Again we don't need oil money just a fair owner.

One more thing you and some other people in here are making it sound like we are playing in an old abondoned shack and our training facilities are falling apart and crumbling away.:lol:

That's my last post for today, I've only got 5. :(
 
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Kaos said:
But you can bet your bottom dollar that if an investment firm linked to the US government we're frontrunners in buying our club you wouldn't hear the same concern or manufactured outrage over human rights, women's rights and racism.
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You don't know that. If a firm linked to the US government was rumored to buy United, absolutely their track record with wars and destabilizing regions for profit around the world would come up, or the greed and corruption and minority rights, etc.
 
Tarrou said:
It's just whataboutism and contributes nothing to the discussion

Everyone in the world is aware that migrants are treated poorly in lots of countries. Some worse than others, and some a lot lot worse.

What are you contributing by pointing that out? The square root of feckall.
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So you accept migrant problem is not something unique to Qatar?
 
atkar83 said:
You don't know that. If a firm linked to the US government was rumored to buy United, absolutely their track record with wars and destabilizing regions for profit around the world would come up, or the greed and corruption and minority rights, etc.
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Nah nah, it would be like all things American. There wouldn't be threads about it like there aren't threads about Guns, Police, Politics, Crazy Politics, NFL, etc. It would be hushed and not discussed like Jan.6. If it were Boris Johnson there wouldn't be a word of criticism either like there wasn't of his government. The Caf only goes for Qataris, don't you know?

I haven't seen the former Clippers owner mentioned once by this whataboutism brigade. He actually had to sell cause he was a d1ck.
 
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