Club Sale | It’s done!

[CatsOfUlthar]

I've been trying to avoid controversial debate, especially as I'm such a newer member of the Cafe.

I cannot really ignore the fact however it's fairly clear Man Utd are likely getting a Qatar based ownership, and I am aware of the now various threads discussing what people either think of or would do about such things.

I'm fairly disappointed, though not really surprised, about the amount of "oh but look at this thing someone else did, or "I don't care as long as we win things cause everyone else is doing it" comments.

I don't feel this is a direction we should be okay with. Do I have a perfect solution where St Inoffensive of Jerusanowherespecificwefightabout makes a bid? Nope.

So maybe I should just shut up about it. Or maybe I am allowed to be a little maudlin, this is going to divide us hard, and it sucks, but we should probably try a bit harder to make sure whoever buys us isn't as terrible as poo sprinkles on a turd sandwich. If we are all so down on the Glazers, how the hell could we be happy about state ownership?

 

[Wibble]

Your only valid point is about housemaid treatment and that's not limited to the middle east but because of income disparity, it is a larger issue and there is a lopsided power dynamic. Similar cases have happened here in the US and it's not the norm in the middle east. Just so you know, mistreating servants or maids is an issue anywhere there is a massive income disparity: Africa, Pakistan, India etc are all included in this list.

And they aren't trying to buy United.

As for the rest, I know you that you know

Sexual abuse -- is a much, much bigger problem in the west. There is every statistic out there to prove that

Only because women are generally treated like property and hugely supervised by male relatives. And of course sexual abuse, particualrly within families is hugely under-reported (or not reported).

Terrible treatment of migrant workers -- yeah as if migrant workers are being treated like regular citizens in Europe and America. Specifically labor and lower class migrants. Please don't make me pull up some links on how they are treated.

But it is nowhere near as bad, not covered up as much and usually a crime when discovered. Crimes that do get prosecuted when revealed and rarely covered up.

And wrongdoing elsewhere doesn't excuse anything.

Mistreatment of women, treated like property -- No idea where you got this from but probably some lazy form of "arab=opressed women" analysis you got in your head. Qatar and UAE in particular are some of the safest places for women. Women are independent and even dress western ffs. Do you realize how many British women work there? As I said earlier statistics for women getting raped or sexually harassed is far lower in the middle east as well.

I get it from living and working in the region. Expats have more freedom but only as long as it is on male/expat terms. For example, my wife, as a Departmental Head of a Women's College, was told she wasn't allowed to speak in meetings unless invited to do so by a man, no matter how junior to her they were. She wasn't allowed to shake any male's hand as it would offend most non-expats. Neighbours frequently report you to the police for silly things like my wife waving to her male collegue as they left their adjacent houses to drive to work. And again when they car shared to work. A friend of mine has a company there and his wife, who is just as senior and skilled as him, never goes to significant business meetings for the obvious reasons. And of course lots of expats of all sexes work there. The money is good.

I agree the law can be more about who you know but again that is not unique to the middle east. This sort of thing is common in a lot of countries that don't have a strong legal system like the west which takes years to develop.

But it isn't vaguely the same. In the west priveledge helps but in most of the Middle East the law is often both ridiculous and merely advisory if you are inportant or are related to someone important.

The most important part is all of these things are crimes and not some legal mandate for the middle east or the Qatari government. The fact you just casually said women are mistreated in Dubai (where you stayed) really makes me question if you haven't already made up your mind on this.

Given personal experience and the current experience of a number of frends who are still there I see no reason to change my mind. Mistreatment of women is engrained in the whole of society in just about all ME/Gulf countries.

 

[Tarrou]

So you accept migrant problem is not something unique to Qatar?

of course I do!

I'm very inquisitive and want to learn about all cultures, happy to be educated or proven wrong about anything.

I've lived in seven countries, and what I would describe is the best in terms of how migrants are treated would be Canada (where I was born). But even Canada has issues with human rights and a horrible past it should be ashamed of. Similar to Australia, where I live now, young indigenous kids were taken from their families and adopted out against the parents will, and many of those kids ended up being abused and/or killed, then basically forgotten by society. It's utterly shameful.

it's much harder to have an informed opinion of countries you've only visited, as you're relying on limited experiences, views of your friends who live there, locals you speak to, or the media (which is obviously often horseshit). But in Dubai it was very jarring to me how excluded some of the migrants are from society, and I spoke to lots of migrants there. There was one Nigerian lad who worked in my hotel, who told me a British guy who worked there doing the same job (basically they were in charge of all the watersports in a resort, so it's quite high-skilled work) was getting paid double what he did. And apparently that is still fairly common practise.

I do believe things are slowly getting better though and i'm an optimist. Just as I (want to) believe it's getting better in the UK, although that optimism has been tested in recent years and it feels like there's been a regression.

I mean sure it's shitty in the UK and Italy too (I've lived in both, and for me Italy is a fair bit worse), but I would absolutely prefer to be a migrant in one of those countries than the UAE. Wouldn't you?

 

[Cantonagotmehere]

Nah nah, it would be like all things American. There wouldn't be threads about it like there aren't threads about Guns, Police, Politics, Crazy Politics, NFL, etc. It would be hushed and not discussed like Jan.6. If it were Boris Johnson there wouldn't be a word of criticism either like there wasn't of his government. The Caf only goes for Qataris, don't you know?

I haven't seen the former Clippers owner mentioned once by this whataboutism brigade. He actually had to sell cause he was a d1ck.

Hahahahahaha

 

[NK86]

Meanwhile in England, France and Italy migrant workers and laborers are fully functioning members of society living in pretty much the same neighborhoods as the local white folk. In fact, some would have you believe there's a country called America where even the locals (blacks) are living in underrepresented neighborhoods with poorer schools and poorer access to healthcare!

Which part of my post said that there aren't issues in other countries? But if you equate the general condition of migrant workers, you could never objectively come to the conclusion that it's not worse in ME than places like Europe/US.

 

[Cloud7]

I get it from living and working in the region. Expats have more freedom but only as long as it is on male/expat terms. For example, my wife, as a Departmental Head of a Women's College, was told she wasn't allowed to speak in meetings unless invited to do so by a man, no matter how junior to her they were. She wasn't allowed to shake any male's hand as it would offend most non-expats. Neighbours frequently report you to the police for silly things like my wife waving to her male collegue as they left their adjacent houses to drive to work. And again when they car shared to work. A friend of mine has a company there and his wife, who is just as senior and skilled as him, never goes to significant business meetings for the obvious reasons. And of course lots of expats of all sexes work there. The money is good.

This is insane

 

[shamans]

I get it from living and working in the region. Expats have more freedom but only as long as it is on male/expat terms. For example, my wife, as a Departmental Head of a Women's College, was told she wasn't allowed to speak in meetings unless invited to do so by a man, no matter how junior to her they were. She wasn't allowed to shake any male's hand as it would offend most non-expats. Neighbours frequently report you to the police for silly things like my wife waving to her male collegue as they left their adjacent houses to drive to work. And again when they car shared to work. A friend of mine has a company there and his wife, who is just as senior and skilled as him, never goes to significant business meetings for the obvious reasons. And of course lots of expats of all sexes work there. The money is good.

In my decade of living there and currently having female family members and friends working there I have never heard of almost any of this. Even remotely.

Told you're not allowed to speak? In a company? Even a woman working in a grocery store can speak freely. Our office has a branch in Dubai and I've never experienced this it's basically indistinguishable from my office here in the U.S.

Neighbors reporting you to the police for having at a male colleague also just doesn't fit. People are out in coffee shops on dates there so that's very hard to believe for me.

What you said about handshakes is true. It's the culture/religion and men don't find it appropriate to touch a female like that over there.

I really cannot believe the rest of it but I know you wouldn't lie so honestly, I'm going to take this as you being really unfortunate. I would be just as surprised if I heard of all of this happening in the U.S

 

[shamans]

of course I do!

I'm very inquisitive and want to learn about all cultures, happy to be educated or proven wrong about anything.

I've lived in seven countries, and what I would describe is the best in terms of how migrants are treated would be Canada (where I was born). But even Canada has issues with human rights and a horrible past it should be ashamed of. Similar to Australia, where I live now, young indigenous kids were taken from their families and adopted out against the parents will, and many of those kids ended up being abused and/or killed, then basically forgotten by society. It's utterly shameful.

it's much harder to have an informed opinion of countries you've only visited, as you're relying on limited experiences, views of your friends who live there, locals you speak to, or the media (which is obviously often horseshit). But in Dubai it was very jarring to me how excluded some of the migrants are from society, and I spoke to lots of migrants there. There was one Nigerian lad who worked in my hotel, who told me a British guy who worked there doing the same job (basically they were in charge of all the watersports in a resort, so it's quite high-skilled work) was getting paid double what he did. And apparently that is still fairly common practise.

I do believe things are slowly getting better though and i'm an optimist. Just as I (want to) believe it's getting better in the UK, although that optimism has been tested in recent years and it feels like there's been a regression.

I mean sure it's shitty in the UK and Italy too (I've lived in both, and for me Italy is a fair bit worse), but I would absolutely prefer to be a migrant in one of those countries than the UAE. Wouldn't you?

All fair points so apologize if I came across harsh it's just frustrating to see the sort of elitist western mentality at times. Gasping at wage disparity and difficulty of migrant workers in Qatar when it's common in the west as well. (Not to mention, when the western countries were building their cities up to get to this oh so enlightened stage they are at now they had legit slaves). Emotions get the best of me sometimes being an immigrant myself (in multiple countries)

To answer the bold, it's something I think of myself in my current job. I think you meant what I would chose as a "poor" immigrant (maybe a laborer) and of course I would pick UK. I mean there is no question labor and worker laws are more developed in a country like UK but also, I would probably get paid more.

But in my current role, not being a poorer immigrant, I have seriously considered moving to the middle east. I would take a significant pay cut as well but I miss a lot about it.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

Ah, so this makes total sense.

The Emir was in England studying while Fergie dominated the league and won the treble.

No wonder he wants to help personally recreate it.

Emir had Cantona posters on his wall. You just know it.

 

[Ahmer Baig]

We'll just be swapping players with PSG.
Mbappe, Hakimi, Nunes. They can have McT, Martial and VdB

Don't forget Phil Jones.

 

[DevilRed]

SUIIII

Spoiler

 

[Member 58925]

I don't know. I think with competent non glazer ownership we would certainly be better and probably consistently finish top 3/4 but we can't compete with City in the market.

That and our infrastructure is just breaking apart.

With competent owners that don’t drain the club, we’d have plenty of money for the infrastructure and improve the squad. We competed with City and Chelsea without having their spending money pound for pound. Fergie did it, Klopp did it, and Ten Hag can do it with some backing.

 

[Mr Smith]

I don't want a Quatari investment fund to buy us for moral reasons, but for purely footballing reasons, these recent links to Elon Musk is worse. The guy treats business assets with reckless abandon; he'll destroy the club and move onto the next thing without a care in the world.

 

[jacqueshardie]

Scousers wanted them

 

[shamans]

With competent owners that don’t drain the club, we’d have plenty of money for the infrastructure and improve the squad. We competed with City and Chelsea without having their spending money pound for pound. Fergie did it, Klopp did it, and Ten Hag can do it with some backing.

I'm just not too sure. Yeah Klopp did do it but it's rare you get a manager like that all of a sudden. I'm not saying we'd be trash but to truly compete with City, Madrid and co it would be a little tough. Could do much better than now (past decade) for sure

 

[al tuna]

Going to sound really spoiled here but I cannot wait until we don't have to rely on Martial and Wout (even though he's been very professional about everything) up front. I genuinely think we will look back at this past January and think how dire it was that we could only muster two loans. I mean it feels dire now, yes. But in a decade it'll look astounding, bit like City's horrid result against Middlesbrough in 2008. I'm sure they as fans think about that and can't believe that 8-1 scoreline.

 

[FrankFoot]

Meanwhile in England, France and Italy migrant workers and laborers are fully functioning members of society living in pretty much the same neighborhoods as the local white folk. In fact, some would have you believe there's a country called America where even the locals (blacks) are living in underrepresented neighborhoods with poorer schools and poorer access to healthcare!

England, France and Italy aren't buying United, neither they will.

I've been reading the thread for a while, and you just repeat "xyz" misconduct from UK or other country whenever legal criticism to Qatar (potential buyers for United) appears.

Seems repetitive to me, and I'm trying to be neutral here cause i don't believe there is a clean billionaire out there, so it doesn't matter who buys United, it will be cnut no matter what.

 

[FrankFoot]

But you can bet your bottom dollar that if an investment firm linked to the US government we're frontrunners in buying our club you wouldn't hear the same concern or manufactured outrage over human rights, women's rights and racism.

Seeing how many people shit on US government in the political threads, what you assumed it's very unlikely.

 

[Abdullah7]

Housemaids emprisoned for the term of their contract and not allowed out of the house unless travelling with their host family - there were 2 on our compound where they weren't even allowed to write home and we secretly mailed letters for them occasionally so at least their kids/family knew theye were alive. Many sexually abused as well. Terrible treatment of workers from places like India, Pakistan. Worker deaths convered up or miss reported. Abominable and systematic mistreatment of women, generally treated like property. Zero worker protection, even for western expats e.g. a collegue of my wife's was a councillor and she was deported for refusing to tell her boss which girl she was helping was raped by a family member so he could tell her family who had royal connections. Debt treated as a crime with virtually no legal recourse especially for expats. The law in general is more about who you know than what you did/didn't do. I know a member of the Caf who was imprisoned for someone else's debt until they paid it off on the basis that he was working on the same project. No legal connection or financial guarantees involved - just someone with royal connections didn't want to lose money and didn't care who paid for it.

let's be clear. I noticed in what you have written a certain tone. Exaggeration is the word where you planted terms like imprisoning house maids as a matter fact. You must understand one thing first. The culture as it diverse from one region to another. We have a protective house holders who have rules accepted by the worker before they come to the country. for instance in Kuwait, the maid culturally is free to come and go as she likes. In Saudi Arabia it's a little bet different. Most of the house mades are treated like daughters of the house itself.The house holder in Saudi tend to be protective for the females. The maids usually come and go like any female in the family. She can go to restaurants, malls and live exactly like the mother or daughters of the house. If being abused she can refuse to work and be deported back to their countries like the U.S. and any other country.

your argument about the house maids was where you diverted to accusations with no proof. We treat Pakstanis or Indians with respect and they are equal to us in society as we don't discriminate in Islam. Of course you get your rare occasional hackling like any society, for instance, what happened to me when I was standing by the side walk in the U.S. and some tom florries decided to call me every racist word they could while driving by. We're not perfect.

Covering up deaths has a big penalty in the Arabian gulf countries and we don't tolerate covering up because we fear from Allah more than any human and that is the average status mind of every Saudi. Kuwaiti or Qatari. We encourage morality and sympathy to the week as a religious duty first carried by our society.

Now to your latest drivel. A random story where you put something not common and hated in our society, like women's rape. I was shocked when I heard that a girl have been raped in my country. It dose not happen frequently like your westren socity where I could find a dozen incidents of rape stories by one click. The crime rate here is way lower than your sophisticated societies in every aspect.

Your wife collage story is a random incident. She should have made sure to put such clauses in here contract. it's a matter of negligence.

Corruption and favoritism. First, In our court system we follow Sharia's laws from al quaraan. The debt story is a legal matter and I trust our law system because it's based on religion. If he was mistreated he should submit a complaint and he shall be heard. Just open Netflix and look up the innocent files show to see people being imprisoned for the wrong reasons also in the west. It's Isolated incidents and shall not be taken as the norm in our society. We detest it from a religious point of view.

 

[croadyman]

I don't want a Quatari investment fund to buy us for moral reasons, but for purely footballing reasons, these recent links to Elon Musk is worse. The guy treats business assets with reckless abandon; he'll destroy the club and move onto the next thing without a care in the world.

There are understandable concerns about Qatar ownership due to human rights issues,however willing to see whether they can improve infrastructure,facilities and stadium and change views on how their country is perceived.

 

[Wibble]

In my decade of living there and currently having female family members and friends working there I have never heard of almost any of this. Even remotely.

It is incredibly common. Everyone I know in the region knows about this stuff happened.

Told you're not allowed to speak? In a company? Even a woman working in a grocery store can speak freely. Our office has a branch in Dubai and I've never experienced this it's basically indistinguishable from my office here in the U.S.

I'd guess that your management isn't made up of Emeiratis?

Neighbors reporting you to the police for having at a male colleague also just doesn't fit. People are out in coffee shops on dates there so that's very hard to believe for me.

We were reported about 3 times per year. Police told them to bugger off thankfully but it was rather stressful.

The not speak until spoken to was in Sharjah at an educational institution. That was also where my wife's collegue was deported for refusing to tell her boss which girl had been raped by a family member.

 

[devilish]

In my decade of living there and currently having female family members and friends working there I have never heard of almost any of this. Even remotely.

Told you're not allowed to speak? In a company? Even a woman working in a grocery store can speak freely. Our office has a branch in Dubai and I've never experienced this it's basically indistinguishable from my office here in the U.S.

Neighbors reporting you to the police for having at a male colleague also just doesn't fit. People are out in coffee shops on dates there so that's very hard to believe for me.

What you said about handshakes is true. It's the culture/religion and men don't find it appropriate to touch a female like that over there.

I really cannot believe the rest of it but I know you wouldn't lie so honestly, I'm going to take this as you being really unfortunate. I would be just as surprised if I heard of all of this happening in the U.S

The handshake thing happens with orthodox Jews in London as well

 

[Abizzz]

let's be clear. I noticed in what you have written a certain tone. Exaggeration is the word where you planted terms like imprisoning house maids as a matter fact. You must understand one thing first. The culture as it diverse from one region to another. We have a protective house holders who have rules accepted by the worker before they come to the country. for instance in Kuwait, the maid culturally is free to come and go as she likes. In Saudi Arabia it's a little bet different. Most of the house mades are treated like daughters of the house itself.The house holder in Saudi tend to be protective for the females. The maids usually come and go like any female in the family. She can go to restaurants, malls and live exactly like the mother or daughters of the house. If being abused she can refuse to work and be deported back to their countries like the U.S. and any other country.

your argument about the house maids was where you diverted to accusations with no proof. We treat Pakstanis or Indians with respect and they are equal to us in society as we don't discriminate in Islam. Of course you get your rare occasional hackling like any society, for instance, what happened to me when I was standing by the side walk in the U.S. and some tom florries decided to call me every racist word they could while driving by. We're not perfect.

Covering up deaths has a big penalty in the Arabian gulf countries and we don't tolerate covering up because we fear from Allah more than any human and that is the average status mind of every Saudi. Kuwaiti or Qatari. We encourage morality and sympathy to the week as a religious duty first carried by our society.

Now to your latest drivel. A random story where you put something not common and hated in our society, like women's rape. I was shocked when I heard that a girl have been raped in my country. It dose not happen frequently like your westren socity where I could find a dozen incidents of rape stories by one click. The crime rate here is way lower than your sophisticated societies in every aspect.

Your wife collage story is a random incident. She should have made sure to put such clauses in here contract. it's a matter of negligence.

Corruption and favoritism. First, In our court system we follow Sharia's laws from al quaraan. The debt story is a legal matter and I trust our law system because it's based on religion. If he was mistreated he should submit a complaint and he shall be heard. Just open Netflix and look up the innocent files show to see people being imprisoned for the wrong reasons also in the west. It's Isolated incidents and shall not be taken as the norm in our society. We detest it from a religious point of view.

Are you a really elaborate wum or are you really thinking this?

 

[Nero]

I scroll very fast through this thread now.

 

[shamans]

England, France and Italy aren't buying United, neither they will.

I've been reading the thread for a while, and you just repeat "xyz" misconduct from UK or other country whenever legal criticism to Qatar (potential buyers for United) appears.

Seems repetitive to me, and I'm trying to be neutral here cause i don't believe there is a clean billionaire out there, so it doesn't matter who buys United, it will be cnut no matter what.

Yeah it will be a cnut but it's clear I'm responding to people who thing it is specifically problematic if Qatar is buying United and it would be fine if it was any other (western) country. Otherwise, I think there should be no state ownership.

 

[VP]

The Arab world is pretty big but most of the gulf states for some women are better places to live at. I know more women who moved to middle east and felt much safer and freer. Of course that is because of who I surround myself but the stats are out there as well. It's not a one fits all but anyone who says Arab world is worse for women as a final statement ain't being genuine.

Why have you narrowed it down to those two niche groups? Why not ask Western women working and living in those countries how safe and comfortable they feel there? And better yet - ask them to compare it to their cities back home.

How Western female expats feel about their (luxurious) lives in a country is an absurd measure of women's rights, though. It's like arguing India is a rich country because expats enjoy living here.

Have I missed something here? Don't Qatari women need permission from a male "guardian" to work, study or marry? And that's just the most progressive Arab state.

 

[Water Melon]

I scroll very fast through this thread now.

Likewise. It has been derailed and does not give real updates on potential bidders.

 

[shamans]

It is incredibly common. Everyone I know in the region knows about this stuff happened.

I'd guess that your management isn't made up of Emeiratis?

We were reported about 3 times per year. Police told them to bugger off thankfully but it was rather stressful.

The not speak until spoken to was in Sharjah at an educational institution. That was also where my wife's collegue was deported for refusing to tell her boss which girl had been raped by a family member.

I have deal with Emiratis professionally and if you had said they are big on nepotism and hiring their own above you despite you having higher qualification, I would echo that. Even the fact they will use you to train their own person and then make that person your manager. There's a lot I can talk about when it comes to lack of professionalism of gulf natives and general asshole behavior.

But to tell a woman to not speak unless allowed to -- I or anyone in my circle has never had that happen. I know dozens of women (who I went to school with) and none of them have ever mentioned anything like that. As I said, we have and do talk a lot about the nepotism and lack of professional work ethic instead.

As for being reported for waves, you must have had weirdo neighbors because as you know yourself young adults are always going out on dates in UAE to public places so why would it be in issue?

 

[WalkerTheRed]

Turnover does not matter infact even profitability can be skewed in accounting from year to year. (Provision reversal is a good example)

The main concern is equity, how much INEOS have in reserve. Plus they are a listed company who will be lending money and will require return on its investment.

I don't want an owner where we have to fund their investment again. Because whatever INEOS will give our owner, they will want it returned with interest and guess who is going to generate income to repay off that initial investment, our club.

No INEOS is NOT a publicly traded company. While it is an LLC, it is owned by only 3 people, and SJR owns 60% of the shares. So any pressure for ROI is basically from him

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I don’t think simply pointing to a country and it’s culture is enough. These are things that are steeped in centuries of history rather than merely existing in a vaccum. In India homosexuality was illegal till some years ago and violence against women has always been a problem. That doesn’t automatically mean every person who has a seat near the top of the government is some horrific individual (although the one right now ironically is). Change in mindsets and cultures takes a long long time and that’s fine - nearly every development nation today had a shocking past.

What’s more relevant is what are the beliefs and actions of the potentially Qatari owners looking to buy Manchester United.

Also It has to be added that Manchester United is owned by its shareholders. It doesn’t represent its shareholders. The club isn’t suddenly going to impose Qatari law for no apparent reason. It will exist as it always has, as an English club pushing agendas / beliefs it always has.

 

[shamans]

How Western female expats feel about their (luxurious) lives in a country is an absurd measure of women's rights, though. It's like arguing India is a rich country because expats enjoy living here.

Have I missed something here? Don't Qatari women need permission from a male "guardian" to work, study or marry? And that's just the most progressive Arab state.

expats are generally the poorer people in the middle east. What's your measure of women's rights then? It's also not how just western women feel. In general most women living in Qatar love the laws of the country

 

[reelworld]

If the options are Elon and the Qataris, I'd rather stick with the Glazers tbh. At least we know what the Glazers are up to

 

[shamans]

I don’t think simply pointing to a country and it’s culture is enough. These are things that are steeped in centuries of history rather than merely existing in a vaccum. In India homosexuality was illegal till some years ago and violence against women has always been a problem. That doesn’t automatically mean every person who has a seat near the top of the government is some horrific individual (although the one right now ironically is). Change in mindsets and cultures takes a long long time and that’s fine - nearly every development nation today had a shocking past.

What’s more relevant is what are the beliefs and actions of the potentially Qatari owners looking to buy Manchester United.

Also It has to be added that Manchester United is owned by its shareholders. It doesn’t represent its shareholders. The club isn’t suddenly going to impose Qatari law for no apparent reason. It will exist as it always has, as an English club pushing agendas / beliefs it always has.

And it just makes it worse when some nations are behind in development because of colonial exploitation and instability. Not like most of these middle eastern nations have had a chance to develop. Qatar only just got rich in comparison (since the 90s) and it has already come leaps ahead since then in comparison to itself.

 

[WalkerTheRed]

I don’t know how hard this is to grasp.
The Glazers are not the American government.

Very hard...

The same segment thinks, that there actually are real private and independent multi billion dollar investment funds in Qatar.

 

[BarstoolProphet]

You don't know that. If a firm linked to the US government was rumored to buy United, absolutely their track record with wars and destabilizing regions for profit around the world would come up, or the greed and corruption and minority rights, etc.

Well we have both Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan Chase heavily linked with the takeover (with SJR) yet nothing is made of the fecked up shit they have done and are probably still doing.

 

[Wibble]

let's be clear. I noticed in what you have written a certain tone. Exaggeration is the word where you planted terms like imprisoning house maids as a matter fact. You must understand one thing first. The culture as it diverse from one region to another. We have a protective house holders who have rules accepted by the worker before they come to the country. for instance in Kuwait, the maid culturally is free to come and go as she likes. In Saudi Arabia it's a little bet different. Most of the house mades are treated like daughters of the house itself.The house holder in Saudi tend to be protective for the females. The maids usually come and go like any female in the family. She can go to restaurants, malls and live exactly like the mother or daughters of the house. If being abused she can refuse to work and be deported back to their countries like the U.S. and any other country.

I'm not exaggerating nor using sterotypes at all, but talking from personal experience. In our small compound 2 households didn't allow their maids to go out alone (I actually suspect none of the Emirati familes alowed them out unsupervised. They either kept them with them when they went out or dead locked them in the house. One even had a lock on the fridge that was locked when they were out.

your argument about the house maids was where you diverted to accusations with no proof. We treat Pakstanis or Indians with respect and they are equal to us in society as we don't discriminate in Islam. Of course you get your rare occasional hackling like any society, for instance, what happened to me when I was standing by the side walk in the U.S. and some tom florries decided to call me every racist word they could while driving by. We're not perfect.

I have the proof of my own direct experience. And friends in Dubai have many similar experiences.

Covering up deaths has a big penalty in the Arabian gulf countries and we don't tolerate covering up because we fear from Allah more than any human and that is the average status mind of every Saudi. Kuwaiti or Qatari. We encourage morality and sympathy to the week as a religious duty first carried by our society.

So why do cover-ups happen all the time? Qatar listing thousands of health workers as suffering death from heart attacks beggars belief and is obvious bullshit.

I remember one in Dubai (albeit many years ago) where a dry dock wall collapsed. The death toll was eventually reported upwards to just under 30 (ish) but a friend who worked in the hospital counted/saw reported about 120 bodies and another friend of a friend ran the local newspaper and was told not to report anything other than what he was told to report. This was the editor who later only got 7 years for murdering his wife with a hammer (rather male centric at best I'd say). https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...tor-sentence-dubai-manslaughter-a9220466.html

Now to your latest drivel. A random story where you put something not common and hated in our society, like women's rape. I was shocked when I heard that a girl have been raped in my country. It dose not happen frequently like your westren socity where I could find a dozen incidents of rape stories by one click. The crime rate here is way lower than your sophisticated societies in every aspect.

Drivel? Or direct personal experience. And you are missing the point. That someone is raped isn't (sadly) the shocking thing but the issue is that a councillor was ordered to give out such private and confidential details and was sacked and deported when she (obvioulsy) refused. Expats get sacked and deported at the drop of a hat with no realistic expectation of legal protection.

Your wife collage story is a random incident. She should have made sure to put such clauses in here contract. it's a matter of negligence.

I don't think anyone would think to have to have it stated in a contract that they were allowed to speak.

Corruption and favoritism. First, In our court system we follow Sharia's laws from al quaraan. The debt story is a legal matter and I trust our law system because it's based on religion. If he was mistreated he should submit a complaint and he shall be heard. Just open Netflix and look up the innocent files show to see people being imprisoned for the wrong reasons also in the west. It's Isolated incidents and shall not be taken as the norm in our society. We detest it from a religious point of view.

The problem of the law is precisely because it is based on religion. And just because other legal systems result in falsly imprisoned people (often not due to the law itself but how it was administerd - police and prosecutors for e.g.) that doesn't mean anything for the legal system in question.

And the debt story is 100% true. An entirely innocent and unconnected person imrpisoned for someone else not fulfilling a contract. The expat most likley to pay was arrested and had to pay up to get out.

But it is the systemic human rights issues and subjugation of women that most influences my desire not to want any sporst washing ownership.

 

[shamans]

I'm talking from personal experience. In our small compound 2 households didn't allow their maids to go out alone (I actually suspect non of the Emirati familes alowed them out unsupervised.. They either kept them with them when they went out or dead locked them in the house. One even had a lock on the fridge that was locked when they were out.

Did you have a servant or house maid in your house? I'm only asking because something like the bold is quite normal throughout the world where you have servants and I wonder if you are just not familiar with the process of it all.

 

[Tarrou]

All fair points so apologize if I came across harsh it's just frustrating to see the sort of elitist western mentality at times. Gasping at wage disparity and difficulty of migrant workers in Qatar when it's common in the west as well. (Not to mention, when the western countries were building their cities up to get to this oh so enlightened stage they are at now they had legit slaves). Emotions get the best of me sometimes being an immigrant myself (in multiple countries)

To answer the bold, it's something I think of myself in my current job. I think you meant what I would chose as a "poor" immigrant (maybe a laborer) and of course I would pick UK. I mean there is no question labor and worker laws are more developed in a country like UK but also, I would probably get paid more.

But in my current role, not being a poorer immigrant, I have seriously considered moving to the middle east. I would take a significant pay cut as well but I miss a lot about it.

Yeah, I meant the poorer immigrants. "Ex-pats" (in brackets because its a ridiculous term but you know what I mean) in Dubai are treated like there are several steps above the rest of the immigrants. That is a complex discussion in itself which is probably left out of this.

The wages disparity I was referring to is no where near an equivalence to the west. You're quick to make these sort of topics binary when it suits you, but they are nothing of the sort. There is often a massive delta between the two which is where the actual discussion lies. Not everyone from western countries is looking at it from an elitist view-point (we're all biased, sure..), and I think it's important to remember that or we're basically all wasting our time talking about it.

 

[Member 117152]

I’m really torn with this takeover.

We are a socialist club at our heart and this takeover seems completely against our club traditions politically speaking.

Polar opposite and it’s really hard to take as a long running fan we are in such a place to just keep pace at the top of the game.

I’m not a fan of Qatar’s meddling at PSG for example. We cannot have that here. The manager must reign supreme in squad handling and players they want.

It’s in one way exciting but also pretty stomach churning at the same time. Conflicted this week with it all.

 

[Micky Targaryen]

TLDR of the last few pages:

Caftard 1: Me and my friends had bad experiences in Qatar!

Caftard 2: Me and my friends never had any bad experiences in Qatar!

.......

I just wanna move on from the Glazers and our inept board..