Club Sale | It’s done!

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sglowrider said:
This is as certain as the sun coming up tomorrow. This 'deal' will just kick the can down the road while we'll be increasingly constricted financially and the infrastructure costs will keep on rising.

It's fine for Ratcliffe if he wants to get the deal over the line a few years down the road but can we wait that long without a detrimental impact, on & off the pitch through this delay?
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You don't know the timeline if Ineos are using this as as a method to move towards control. Why a few years? Could be far less than that.

What is the alternative? Glazers want to retain a percentage. Qatar not willing to give them that. No other potential buyers.

I dont love state ownership but would be fine with Qater over the Glazers, but im equally fine with Ineos if they take control. ABGC - Anything But Glazer Control.
 
gaffs said:
You don't know the timeline if Ineos are using this as as a method to move towards control. Why a few years? Could be far less than that.

What is the alternative? Glazers want to retain a percentage. Qatar not willing to give them that. No other potential buyers.

I dont love state ownership but would be fine with Qater over the Glazers, but im equally fine with Ineos if they take control. ABGC - Anything But Glazer Control.
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Jassim is just making sure that it's the best deal he can get. If this is the last roll of the dice for INEOS then Jassim & crew will just do what it takes to beat it.
 
sglowrider said:
Jassim is just making sure that it's the best deal he can get. If this is the last roll of the dice for INEOS then Jassim & crew will just do what it takes to beat it.
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We will see, but i think Joel and Avram believe that MUFC will be worth $12bil in 10+ years. The way football has gone since their Dad bought the club, they may be right. Especially if clubs go towards a PPV model for all club games.
If their siblings want to cash out now, which seems to be the talk, then that is just fine, but they want to keep their %.

Not sure how Qatar can come up with an amount that would satisfy what Joel and Avram believe the future value may be.
 
gaffs said:
We will see, but i think Joel and Avram believe that MUFC will be worth $12bil in 10+ years. The way football has gone since their Dad bought the club, they may be right. Especially if clubs go towards a PPV model for all club games.
If their siblings want to cash out now, which seems to be the talk, then that is just fine, but they want to keep their %.

Not sure how Qatar can come up with an amount that would satisfy what Joel and Avram believe the future value may be.
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Bird in hand/opportunity costs versus potential earnings.

Also, I am confused about your perception that it's state-backed and yet not being able to afford it. Seems like a contradiction.
 
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If Jim gets this minority stake, it will be 20 years plus awaiting league title. Not winning it with this structure of the club. It's depressing, I've not given up hope yet. I think Qatar might get it yet, it's too quiet on that front, until we hear the response on the front it's not over. Scandalous people want this Glazer enabler Jim too.
 
sglowrider said:
Bird in hand/opportunity costs versus potential earnings.

Also, I am confused about your perception that it's state-backed and yet not being able to afford it. Seems like a contradiction.
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Maybe. But the reports are that Avram and Joel want to keep their stake. How does it work when shareholders will all take the valuation of $5bil yet you have two guys who believe the valuation is $10bil. Thats why Jim’s offer seems to be the best all round.

Qatar don’t seem to be moving much from their 3rd, or is it 4th offer.

Didn’t mean to imply they can’t afford it, they can clearly afford just about anything they want to buy. But they are not daft.
 
Ratcliffe buying a minority stake is a good move for the club in the short term. It resolves some of the immediate uncertainty. This mess could go on for years if not.

Morpheus 7 said:
If Jim gets this minority stake, it will be 20 years plus awaiting league title. Not winning it with this structure of the club. It's depressing, I've not given up hope yet. I think Qatar might get it yet, it's too quiet on that front, until we hear the response on the front it's not over. Scandalous people want this Glazer enabler Jim too.
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Any more hyperbole?

Again, it's also funny how people have stopped pretence about the Sheikh and openly just calling the bid "Qatar" now. The first line of defence about the bid was that it wasn't linked to the Qatari state.
 
gaffs said:
Maybe. But the reports are that Avram and Joel want to keep their stake. How does it work when shareholders will all take the valuation of $5bil yet you have two guys who believe the valuation is $10bil. Thats why Jim’s offer seems to be the best all round.

Qatar don’t seem to be moving much from their 3rd, or is it 4th offer.

Didn’t mean to imply they can’t afford it, they can clearly afford just about anything they want to buy. But they are not daft.
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One thing is for sure, all this will only benefit the Glazers -- whether an initial minority stake for Ratcilffe or Jassim's eventual 100% offer as it will ultimately only drive the price up.

And will leave the eventual winner with less to spend on the club itself, operationally.
 
Jim acquiring a minority stake is just giving oxygen to the leeches and will further set back the club. I hope for Jassim to surpass any offer Jim makes and close the deal, it’s the best thing that can happen to the club.
 
colombianmancunian said:
Jim acquiring a minority stake is just giving oxygen to the leeches and will further set back the club. I hope for Jassim to surpass any offer Jim makes and close the deal, it’s the best thing that can happen to the club.
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I’m beginning to move in this direction as well.
 
The mental gymnastics are getting increasingly funnier now that a hypothetical "Glazers get money and stay on top, debt stays, stadium rots" scenario was conceived.
 
BD said:
Seems like a decent start. Jim gets his foot in, while also ruling out Qatar. I wouldn't get my hopes up just yet, but it'd be good news if it were to happen.
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I dont see how, how does a minorty share equate to a decent start.
All it does it give the Glaziers money, blocks anybody else and keeps the Glaziers here for even long.
For me this would be a disaster
 
Sir Jim has used the summer recess to add another string to his bow of incomplete solutions.

In fairness this is probably just one option, however the problem is that it is another option for the Glazers.

They love these options because they can continue the extortion.

The bottom line seems to be that Sir Jim can't quite get his ducks in a row financially.

The least problematic solution would be to buy the whole club.

He can't do that. At this time he does not have the financial capacity.

His team must have gone back to the markets and realised that they were unable to leverage anything better (beyond totally stupid financial options) and are now trying to spread the jam further.

It would be interesting to know exactly how he intends to placate the Class A financial investors, they must have spoken to them.

However, the whole financial review strategy was a club initiative and therefore they can't just pick some lucky winners but they have to be concerned about all the shareholders.

On face value it all looks too complicated and a non-runner, hopefully we will get more information and better solutions.
 
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pauldyson1uk said:
I dont see how, how does a minorty share equate to a decent start.
All it does it give the Glaziers money, blocks anybody else and keeps the Glaziers here for even long.
For me this would be a disaster
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The first thing is - it keeps any sportswashing money linked with dubious regimes away from the club. That’s massive for a start!
 
BD said:
Seems like a decent start. Jim gets his foot in, while also ruling out Qatar. I wouldn't get my hopes up just yet, but it'd be good news if it were to happen.
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It’s not. It is just delaying the Glazer’s exit while the club is decaying even more.
 
sglowrider said:
One thing is for sure, all this will only benefit the Glazers -- whether an initial minority stake for Ratcilffe or Jassim's eventual 100% offer as it will ultimately only drive the price up.

And will leave the eventual winner with less to spend on the club itself, operationally.
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It doesn’t benefit the Glazers at all. It doesn’t even include minority investment to subsidise costs that’s already on the table.
This relegates Jim behind minority investors that we don’t even talk about.
 
Just as an aside. It must have been interesting at the Raine HQ when they had a collective sigh of relief, learning that the new face saving redeeming Ineos offer had arrived, only to read it and realise it was a piece of sh.
 
gaffs said:
Not sure you have explained why the Glazers WONT allow Jim to buy this 25% with a view to increase his holding towards a majority.

Point 7 you make is exactly why Ineos and Jim are not going to just hand over £1.5 billion.

There is no solid justification or business reason why they pay for 25% and it not be the start of a guaranteed mechanism to gain the majority of the control in the near future.

Ineos and Jim would be flushing £1.5 billion down the toilet because, as you say, The Glazers will take their % of that and it will never be seen again.

I see this as a way for Jim to obtain the shares owned by those who would be opposed to him only buying the required Class B shares....
https://www.express.co.uk/sport/foo...takeover-Sir-Jim-Ratcliffe-Sheikh-Jassim-news

There is zero point in them doing this otherwise. He doesn't need dividends. Trying to flip 25% isnt worth the risk when there is really only one 100% buyer in the market - Qatar - who could easily turn to another club. He wants control.
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Yes it’s very unlikely this would be anything other than the first stage of an agreed takeover, there is nothing in it for INEOS otherwise. I don’t regard this as a desperate bid in any sense it’s much more likely to be an attempt to solve the problems preventing the deal. There’s a good chance it has already been discussed with Raine/Glazers and might be something they have suggested they would be interested in.
 
gaffs said:
Not sure you have explained why the Glazers WONT allow Jim to buy this 25% with a view to increase his holding towards a majority.

Point 7 you make is exactly why Ineos and Jim are not going to just hand over £1.5 billion.

There is no solid justification or business reason why they pay for 25% and it not be the start of a guaranteed mechanism to gain the majority of the control in the near future.

Ineos and Jim would be flushing £1.5 billion down the toilet because, as you say, The Glazers will take their % of that and it will never be seen again.

I see this as a way for Jim to obtain the shares owned by those who would be opposed to him only buying the required Class B shares....
https://www.express.co.uk/sport/foo...takeover-Sir-Jim-Ratcliffe-Sheikh-Jassim-news

There is zero point in them doing this otherwise. He doesn't need dividends. Trying to flip 25% isnt worth the risk when there is really only one 100% buyer in the market - Qatar - who could easily turn to another club. He wants control.
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Do you think only some class A shares oppose the Glazer only takeover? Do the others not want money or have too much of it? The law is there to protect those shareholders, it can’t be signed off on even if a few hold outs try and wave it through.
At what point are we going to stop assuming how brilliant a Sir Jim bid is but talking around /down the huge problems he faces?
 
The deal doesnt make sense to me unless the SJ bid has legs. Ratcliffe is the wrong side of 70, so playing the long game isnt viable. If there is evidence SJ is winning over the other 4 leeches and the other 2 are wavering, it could be a desperate measure to scupper any deal.
The other scenario could be that Ratcliffe can brag he had some ownership of Utd, before he kicks the bucket. Either way looking at it, Utd as a club wont be gaining from it. The leeches who sell their shares will want the money.
 
greenoffpearson said:
Just as an aside. It must have been interesting at the Raine HQ when they had a collective sigh of relief, learning that the new face saving redeeming Ineos offer had arrived, only to read it and realise it was a piece of sh.
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How is it a piece of shit? It is brilliant for the Glazers. They each get a huge chunk of cash now valuing the club at £6bn, get to keep control and presumably will have options to sell their remaining shares at different dates for an even higher premium in the future. Struggling to see how the SJ “final bid” that was made 2 weeks after his previous “final bid” that still valued the club at less than the Ratcliffe bid even before his latest offer that values it even higher isn’t “the piece of shit bid”. He needs to make a serious bid that values the club at more than Liverpool (5bn based on their minority stake sale) and Jim (at least 6bn based on the conservative estimates of his latest) otherwise he isn’t winning. It’s only been 10 months of just PR bollocks though - we’ll have a few more weeks of how very serious he is I’m sure - maybe then he’ll actually put up.
 
Mickeza said:
How is it a piece of shit? It is brilliant for the Glazers. They each get a huge chunk of cash now valuing the club at £6bn, get to keep control and presumably will have options to sell their remaining shares at different dates for an even higher premium in the future. Struggling to see how the SJ “final bid” that was made 2 weeks after his previous “final bid” that still valued the club at less than the Ratcliffe bid even before his latest offer that values it even higher isn’t “the piece of shit bid”. He needs to make a serious bid that values the club at more than Liverpool (5bn based on their minority stake sale) and Jim (at least 6bn based on the conservative estimates of his latest) otherwise he isn’t winning. It’s only been 10 months of just PR bollocks though - we’ll have a few more weeks of how very serious he is I’m sure - maybe then he’ll actually put up.
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They can’t agree to a future sale like this and have it signed off without paying off the class A shares.
 
Mickeza said:
How is it a piece of shit? It is brilliant for the Glazers. They each get a huge chunk of cash now valuing the club at £6bn, get to keep control and presumably will have options to sell their remaining shares at different dates for an even higher premium in the future. Struggling to see how the SJ “final bid” that was made 2 weeks after his previous “final bid” that still valued the club at less than the Ratcliffe bid even before his latest offer that values it even higher isn’t “the piece of shit bid”. He needs to make a serious bid that values the club at more than Liverpool (5bn based on their minority stake sale) and Jim (at least 6bn based on the conservative estimates of his latest) otherwise he isn’t winning. It’s only been 10 months of just PR bollocks though - we’ll have a few more weeks of how very serious he is I’m sure - maybe then he’ll actually put up.
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Not necessarily :

Woziak said:
They are putting up 25% of the 69% they own not the club, the Glazers want £6billion for 69% or their 113 million shares and to relinquish control, he’s offering them £1.5billion for 28.2 million so each Glazer is selling approx 4.4 million share at £250m each bit there may be a caveat that £200m must be paid off the legacy debt we’ll see if it ever comes to pass that this happens, it seems like a lot throw of the dice by a desperate man who knows he’s losing ?
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cyberman said:
They can’t agree to a future sale like this and have it signed off without paying off the class A shares.
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It is a POS for many reasons, admittedly, some subjective, however the whole financial review was a club initiative.

When the statement came out it had an immediate effect.on the share.price and still does so.

The club have to formally conclude that process.

The club have a fiduciary duty to each shareholder, they can't discriminate between them. We don't know the details, but how does this offer help cure the problem? It seems more complicated than doing a Rubik's cube blindfolded.
 
Wumminator said:
The first thing is - it keeps any sportswashing money linked with dubious regimes away from the club. That’s massive for a start!
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Sorry, Wumminator. Both you and I have called out Qatar to great personal insults on this forum, but I have to disagree with you here.

The Glazers have pumped (our) money into Trump. Ratcliffe is in with Saudi Arabia, who have sponsorships with us. We also have partnerships with the UAE, with legends endorsing their brand.

Only somebody in true denial, or downright inconsiderate, can claim Qatar's state bid is not sportswashing, but our club is guilty as charged on that score nonetheless.

We should oppose further instances of this type of investment, but as it may mean we don't win what many feel entitled to, can't see it happening.
 
VP89 said:
Not necessarily :
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Okay…they want 6bn for the 69% they own. Explain how the 1.5bn Ratcliffe is about to offer for circa 25% is a worse deal than the 5bn Jassim has offered for 100% of the club - including non-Glazer shares - and possibly including the debt? You can all have a gigantic circle jerk in here saying Jimmy is desperate - but the realty is the SJ bid that is in the public domain is a monumentally shit one and unless he’s significantly raised it I don’t think Jimmy is desperate at all - I think he’s about to win. However, the last time it seemed he was about to win SJ raised his offer above his previous final offer so maybe he’ll do that again and we can just keep doing this dance for another 10 months.
 
Mickeza said:
Okay…they want 6bn for the 69% they own. Explain how the 1.5bn Ratcliffe is about to offer for circa 25% is a worse deal than the 5bn Jassim has offered for 100% of the club - including non-Glazer shares - and possibly including the debt? You can all have a gigantic circle jerk in here saying Jimmy is desperate - but the realty is the SJ bid that is in the public domain is a monumentally shit one and unless he’s significantly raised it I don’t think Jimmy is desperate at all - I think he’s about to win. However, the last time it seemed he was about to win SJ raised his offer above his previous final offer so maybe he’ll do that again and we can just keep doing this dance for another 10 months.
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I think there's noninfornarion around the caveats of Sir Jim's proposal.

You just know he's ready for minority investment but you don't know what conditions are for where that money is put toward, and you can bet your bottom dollar that it's not for the Glazers pockets.

Sheikh Jassim wants to give the Glazers a lot of money to feck off right now, and he'd probably up it if he has to as well, which is why I can see the logic that Sir Jim's move is just a desparate last throw of the dice.
 
VP89 said:
I think there's noninfornarion around the caveats of Sir Jim's proposal.

You just know he's ready for minority investment but you don't know what conditions are for where that money is put toward, and you can bet your bottom dollar that it's not for the Glazers pockets.

Sheikh Jassim wants to give the Glazers a lot of money to feck off right now, and he'd probably up it if he has to as well, which is why I can see the logic that Sir Jim's move is just a desparate last throw of the dice.
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What does this mean? How is giving them billions for a minority stake not for the Glazers pockets? Where’s the money going?
 
VP89 said:
I think there's noninfornarion around the caveats of Sir Jim's proposal.

You just know he's ready for minority investment but you don't know what conditions are for where that money is put toward, and you can bet your bottom dollar that it's not for the Glazers pockets.

Sheikh Jassim wants to give the Glazers a lot of money to feck off right now, and he'd probably up it if he has to as well, which is why I can see the logic that Sir Jim's move is just a desparate last throw of the dice.
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But it's not investment is it?

He's buying some of the Glazers shares and apparently some of the Class A shares too... what they do with the money is totally upto them, but i'd bet anything you want that it won't go into the club.
 
wolvored said:
The deal doesnt make sense to me unless the SJ bid has legs. Ratcliffe is the wrong side of 70, so playing the long game isnt viable. If there is evidence SJ is winning over the other 4 leeches and the other 2 are wavering, it could be a desperate measure to scupper any deal.
The other scenario could be that Ratcliffe can brag he had some ownership of Utd, before he kicks the bucket. Either way looking at it, Utd as a club wont be gaining from it. The leeches who sell their shares will want the money.
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Yeah was going to post this. He's not playing the long game here, surely. This has to be the first step to a quickfire takeover or there's no benefit to him whatsoever.
 
VP89 said:
I think there's noninfornarion around the caveats of Sir Jim's proposal.

You just know he's ready for minority investment but you don't know what conditions are for where that money is put toward, and you can bet your bottom dollar that it's not for the Glazers pockets.

Sheikh Jassim wants to give the Glazers a lot of money to feck off right now, and he'd probably up it if he has to as well, which is why I can see the logic that Sir Jim's move is just a desparate last throw of the dice.
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Yeah let's hope this persuades Qatar to take action. State ownership not ideal but it's a lot better than what we have now.
 
I'm not really sure how all this works to be honest, and i'm hoping someone can clear it up for me...

If Jim buys 25% now with a view to purchase the rest of the club in 3 years, does he have to agree a price with the Glazers now to stop them just demanding whatever they want when the time comes? If so, how does this benefit the Glazers in any way possible? Why would they agree a price now when the value could go up big time? Why would they tie themselves down to a price and potientiall lose out on billions when the time comes?

Of course it could go the other way and the value drops meaning they're quids in, but again, why would they put themselves in a position where they face such a risk? I'm pretty sure those that want out now just want to sell up, take the money and run.
 
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