Club ownership | Senior management team talk

SJR is trigger happy and if the new footballing execs don’t deliver, he’ll fire them all.

I guess Berrada is getting the axe next then? Isn't he the one who told Amorim it's now or never when it came to joining United?

I still wonder why it's the CEO who's driving that decision, I thought the whole point was to move away from that kind of model. I understand that Ashworth was close to the sack at the time, but shouldn't they at least defer to Wilcox in that case?
 
United would have been better off under a different ownership model. Critique the middle eastern ventures but they seldom show incompetence from a footballing operational standpoint. All this cost cutting exercise is understandable but unnecessary if there were more financially amicable individuals in contr other club. The Glazers have royally screwed the club over, the consequence meaning an owner with far more resources compared to SJR was required.
 
I mean what the feck are they doing? I get that our finances are a bit fecked but you make the comical decision to retain the guy that guided HIS squad to a historically bad season, spend a bunch of money for him in the summer, then sack him to get the guy you apparently “always wanted” who plays a very specific system and even said himself he’d prefer to wait until the summer.

Then you bin off another 2 attackers, with one that you knew was leaving for 2 months, yet the only attempt at bringing in more firepower is a loan deal for a talented Bayern prospect? Which you then walked away from?

It’s comically inept, all stemming from keeping Ten Hag, and now chickens are coming home to roost. It’s why I didn’t want these frauds to win the bid in the first place, there was way too much smoke around issues with how they ran Nice and SJR being attached to his puppy dog Brailsford who seemingly acts like he’s gods gift to all things sporting.
 
I guess Berrada is getting the axe next then? Isn't he the one who told Amorim it's now or never when it came to joining United?

I still wonder why it's the CEO who's driving that decision, I thought the whole point was to move away from that kind of model. I understand that Ashworth was close to the sack at the time, but shouldn't they at least defer to Wilcox in that case?

I’m sure Wilcox was heavily involved in the decision, and I think in theory it was the right one, to start rebuilding and planning as soon as possible rather than wait six months.

It’s clearly gone worse than expected so far and maybe they thought they’d be able to sell a player or two to bring couple more in but I think wee be complaining of Sporting were flying and we were struggling but having to wait until summer.
 
Don't worry, there'll be a briefing about a transfer warchest for the summer window along any minute now.
Exactly, the easy statement to deflect from things currently and write off the season and make us to look forward to the summer.
I guess Berrada is getting the axe next then? Isn't he the one who told Amorim it's now or never when it came to joining United?

I still wonder why it's the CEO who's driving that decision, I thought the whole point was to move away from that kind of model. I understand that Ashworth was close to the sack at the time, but shouldn't they at least defer to Wilcox in that case?
Yep we fired ETH and within a few hours Berrada was on a plane to Portugal and said it’s now or never even though as Sporting Director it was Ashworth’s job for those kind of decisions and even more than Berrada it was something that Wilcox should have had a say in as from my understanding the Technical Director brings in staff to coach a set way and scouts to identify players for that way but never a CEO as that’s the same as Woodward going out and making those kind of footballing decisions.
 
Exactly, the easy statement to deflect from things currently and write off the season and make us to look forward to the summer.

Yep we fired ETH and within a few hours Berrada was on a plane to Portugal and said it’s now or never even though as Sporting Director it was Ashworth’s job for those kind of decisions and even more than Berrada it was something that Wilcox should have had a say in as from my understanding the Technical Director brings in staff to coach a set way and scouts to identify players for that way but never a CEO as that’s the same as Woodward going out and making those kind of footballing decisions.
Think this club is at risk of seriously imploding.
 
Critique the middle eastern ventures but they seldom show incompetence from a footballing operational standpoint

Watching psg fail to win the one trophy their Qatari paymasters want is the proof we need of this. Newcastle still have won jack.

Get North Korea in. Football reasons innit?
 
Think this club is at risk of seriously imploding.
Simply comes down to no one seemingly intelligent enough to say this is the structure and who does what in their job role, this is how we are going to play as a club and the United identity, the coaches will coach and pick the team, the scouts will identify players to fit the United identity, the recruitment team will work on the deals and we as a club will play the same way from the first team down to the academy and younger.

Ratcliffe seems to be as dangerous as the Glazer’s with his approach at running the football side of the club and in just a year has dithered on sacking ETH, brought in Ashworth as Sporting Director after the chase meant Ashworth sat out on gardening leave, openly interviewed other managers, kept ETH on, spent £180 million backing ETH, sacked ETH a couple of months after spending millions, allowed the CEO in Berrada to do Ashworth’s job in choosing Amorim even though we had no money to back Amorim and told him now or never, sacked Ashworth and now at the lowest point we’ve ever been at in the Premier League.
 
Don't expect anything to happen tomorrow

I don't.

Precipitous moments as Ineos deal with the 'United Tax' culture of lore. Who buckles first?

We can contrive to make summer but 'United Tax' will be patient until then.

It knows. Will we?
 

This is where I am with it.

It truly struck me when we had the news come out about Garnacho and Mainoo being up for sale and Rashford being banished.

We've lost being different. Just any other club now. Wild to see the downfall.
 
United would have been better off under a different ownership model. Critique the middle eastern ventures but they seldom show incompetence from a footballing operational standpoint. All this cost cutting exercise is understandable but unnecessary if there were more financially amicable individuals in contr other club. The Glazers have royally screwed the club over, the consequence meaning an owner with far more resources compared to SJR was required.
This is just totally incorrect.
 

This is where I am with it.

It truly struck me when we had the news come out about Garnacho and Mainoo being up for sale and Rashford being banished.

We've lost being different. Just any other club now. Wild to see the downfall.

What a load of bollocks. Beckham was a far better servant to the club and SAF still got rid of him at the first sign of any issues. Fergie would have banished the likes of Rashford years ago.
 

This is where I am with it.

It truly struck me when we had the news come out about Garnacho and Mainoo being up for sale and Rashford being banished.

We've lost being different. Just any other club now. Wild to see the downfall.

Feel bad for Scott. Was a decent professional, and think he would have done well for Amorim, but Marcus has brought this upon himself. Better players than both have been shown the door by the club in fairness. Becks for example.
 
@davidmichael nail on the head.

It's as if nobody has asked basic questions like how do we want to play and what are we willing to do to achieve that.

The Amorim appointment is typical of our thoughtlessness. We go for a guy that is wedded to an approach that's alien to the club's current playing staff. Yet, either nobody seemed to consider what would be needed to get the squad aligned to that approach. If they did they totally misdiagnosed the strengths and weaknesses of our players. Either way it doesn't scream competence.

If Berrada et al knew it would take loads of selling and buying to make us an Amorim team, why appoint him knowing PSR is a big issue for us? It comes across as if standard stuff wasn't squared off.
 
What a load of bollocks. Beckham was a far better servant to the club and SAF still got rid of him at the first sign of any issues. Fergie would have banished the likes of Rashford years ago.
Exactly. McTominay and Rashford ultimately had to go. I felt more upset when we sold Wes Brown and John O’Shea to Sunderland in 2011.
 
@davidmichael nail on the head.

It's as if nobody has asked basic questions like how do we want to play and what are we willing to do to achieve that.

The Amorim appointment is typical of our thoughtlessness. We go for a guy that is wedded to an approach that's alien to the club's current playing staff. Yet, either nobody seemed to consider what would be needed to get the squad aligned to that approach. If they did they totally misdiagnosed the strengths and weaknesses of our players. Either way it doesn't scream competence.

If Berrada et al knew it would take loads of selling and buying to make us an Amorim team, why appoint him knowing PSR is a big issue for us? It comes across as if standard stuff wasn't squared off.

I've seen a few people say this, but it misses the point that the club already knew we had lots of buying and selling ahead regardless of who the manager was.

Even at the start of the season when they were backing ETH, the CEO was talking about a 4 year rebuild being the ambitious aim. And that's before this season went off the rails.

When the club's starting perspective is that the team is looking at a 4+ year overhaul of the playing staff even if all goes to plan, the fact that Amorim's approach also necessitates different players stops being particularly relevant. Because regardless of who the manager is, it's still a multi-year rebuild of the squad under the same PSR restrictions.
 
I've seen a few people say this, but it misses the point that the club already knew we had lots of buying and selling ahead regardless of who the manager was.

Even at the start of the season when they were backing ETH, the CEO was talking about a 4 year rebuild being the ambitious aim. And that's before this season went off the rails.

When the club's starting perspective is that the team is looking at a 4+ year overhaul of the playing staff even if all goes to plan, the fact that Amorim's approach also necessitates different players stops being particularly relevant. Because regardless of who the manager is, it's still a multi-year rebuild of the squad under the same PSR restrictions.
The point is that Amorim’s system is so specific and not played by anyone else that if it doesn’t work we’re potentially in an even bigger hole and left with yet more deadwood that the next manager doesn’t want because he most likely won’t play anywhere near the same system as Amorim does.

It’s one thing for Ratcliffe and Ineos to talk about 4-5 year plans but what you need for that to even be a possibility is continuity which means the clubs footballing structure decide a United way of playing, a system and an identity that is played from the first team all the way down to the academy groups.

The structure would implement a scouting network to spot players to fit ‘our’ way and we would fill the academies up with players that will maybe one day break into the first team without the system feeling alien to them as they’d have played it for a while as young kids, we’ve all said for years that no manager should have absolute power.

If we give Amorim say £300 million over the next 18 months and it doesn’t work then the next manager is a 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 guy what does he do with the wing backs ? What does he do with no wingers ? What does he do with wide centre backs that can’t play in a back 4 ? It’s rinse and repeat and yet another rebuild and the toxic cycle continues.

What is needed isn’t Berrada pulling rank over Ashworth to sign the coach Berrada wants or the coach choosing the staff we use which is surely the job of Wilcox or Brailsford and Berrada involved in anything coaching related when that was Ashworth's job but us to have the system, the identity and the specified job roles all in place so there’s a continuity and if a coach does work out it’s not upheaval after upheaval and rebuild after rebuild.

Berrada’s job is basically what Woodward and Arnold did so has no right really in choosing a head coach in the same way neither did Woodward or Arnold but we’re such a fecking shambles that Ratcliffe and the ever pointless Brailsford allowed an in house power struggle over ETH staying or going then after ETH went another power struggle over who replaced ETH and rendered certain job roles pointless, the point is the footballing structure isn’t a structure in anything but name and until it is we’ll keep repeating the same expensive mistakes unless Amorim gets it very right which with our recruitment is unlikely.
 
The point is that Amorim’s system is so specific and not played by anyone else that if it doesn’t work we’re potentially in an even bigger hole and left with yet more deadwood that the next manager doesn’t want because he most likely won’t play anywhere near the same system as Amorim does.
343 variations aren't that uncommon as you claim. Just look at Palace today, Glasner's 3421 isn't that different from Amorim's 343.

So it is a valid concern, but not as bad as you apparently think.
 
The point is that Amorim’s system is so specific and not played by anyone else that if it doesn’t work we’re potentially in an even bigger hole and left with yet more deadwood that the next manager doesn’t want because he most likely won’t play anywhere near the same system as Amorim does.

It’s one thing for Ratcliffe and Ineos to talk about 4-5 year plans but what you need for that to even be a possibility is continuity which means the clubs footballing structure decide a United way of playing, a system and an identity that is played from the first team all the way down to the academy groups.

The structure would implement a scouting network to spot players to fit ‘our’ way and we would fill the academies up with players that will maybe one day break into the first team without the system feeling alien to them as they’d have played it for a while as young kids, we’ve all said for years that no manager should have absolute power.

If we give Amorim say £300 million over the next 18 months and it doesn’t work then the next manager is a 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 guy what does he do with the wing backs ? What does he do with no wingers ? What does he do with wide centre backs that can’t play in a back 4 ? It’s rinse and repeat and yet another rebuild and the toxic cycle continues.

What is needed isn’t Berrada pulling rank over Ashworth to sign the coach Berrada wants or the coach choosing the staff we use which is surely the job of Wilcox or Brailsford and Berrada involved in anything coaching related when that was Ashworth's job but us to have the system, the identity and the specified job roles all in place so there’s a continuity and if a coach does work out it’s not upheaval after upheaval and rebuild after rebuild.

Berrada’s job is basically what Woodward and Arnold did so has no right really in choosing a head coach in the same way neither did Woodward or Arnold but we’re such a fecking shambles that Ratcliffe and the ever pointless Brailsford allowed an in house power struggle over ETH staying or going then after ETH went another power struggle over who replaced ETH and rendered certain job roles pointless, the point is the footballing structure isn’t a structure in anything but name and until it is we’ll keep repeating the same expensive mistakes unless Amorim gets it very right which with our recruitment is unlikely.

That simply isn't true though. Or at least it shouldn't be if you build a squad competently.

For example, you mention the specialist wingback position in Amorim's system and ask what we will do if the next manager doesn't use wingbacks.

But the reality is that when we talk about "signing wingbacks", what we actually mean is signing fullbacks or wingers who can play as wingbacks. So the answer is that if the next manager doesn't use wingbacks, they simply revert to being fullbacks/wingers.

You can see this clearly in the players we were just linked with for the the wingback role. Davies, Mendes, Ait Nouri, Dorgu, Alvaro, etc. Not only are none of these players limited to playing a specialist wingback role, the player we actually signed has primarily played at fullback or winger, not wingback. And all of those players are/were targets for other clubs who play with fullbacks, and could easily have been targets for us if we wanted a fullback. So even signings in that supposedly specialist position impose very few actual restrictions on the squad.

In other words it's much less difficult to transition a squad from 343 to 433 than vice versa, because 99% of the players you sign for a 343 will have experience playing in a 433. In fact most of them will be more used to 433.

If you successfully recruit a young, athletic, high-talent level squad to fit Amorim' system, they will be able to translate to a 433 that emphasises those same qualities with minimal disruption. Because that new formation will still require high-talent GKs, CBs, CMs and attackers. There are few (if any) profiles of player who work in a 343 but don't work in a 433.

The primary issue we're experiencing now isn't that the squad doesn't suit Amorim. It's that it doesn't suit and/or isn't of sufficient quality to allow for sufficient success under any manager. If you fix the talent and profile of the squad, it inherently become much more adaptable.
 
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The point is that Amorim’s system is so specific and not played by anyone else that if it doesn’t work we’re potentially in an even bigger hole and left with yet more deadwood that the next manager doesn’t want because he most likely won’t play anywhere near the same system as Amorim does.

It’s one thing for Ratcliffe and Ineos to talk about 4-5 year plans but what you need for that to even be a possibility is continuity which means the clubs footballing structure decide a United way of playing, a system and an identity that is played from the first team all the way down to the academy groups.

The structure would implement a scouting network to spot players to fit ‘our’ way and we would fill the academies up with players that will maybe one day break into the first team without the system feeling alien to them as they’d have played it for a while as young kids, we’ve all said for years that no manager should have absolute power.

If we give Amorim say £300 million over the next 18 months and it doesn’t work then the next manager is a 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 guy what does he do with the wing backs ? What does he do with no wingers ? What does he do with wide centre backs that can’t play in a back 4 ? It’s rinse and repeat and yet another rebuild and the toxic cycle continues.

What is needed isn’t Berrada pulling rank over Ashworth to sign the coach Berrada wants or the coach choosing the staff we use which is surely the job of Wilcox or Brailsford and Berrada involved in anything coaching related when that was Ashworth's job but us to have the system, the identity and the specified job roles all in place so there’s a continuity and if a coach does work out it’s not upheaval after upheaval and rebuild after rebuild.

Berrada’s job is basically what Woodward and Arnold did so has no right really in choosing a head coach in the same way neither did Woodward or Arnold but we’re such a fecking shambles that Ratcliffe and the ever pointless Brailsford allowed an in house power struggle over ETH staying or going then after ETH went another power struggle over who replaced ETH and rendered certain job roles pointless, the point is the footballing structure isn’t a structure in anything but name and until it is we’ll keep repeating the same expensive mistakes unless Amorim gets it very right which with our recruitment is unlikely.

There’s so much bullshit in this it’s hard to know where to start.

The wingback weve bought is quite adept at playing as a winger. So too the one we’re linked with in the summer. Centrebacks can easily switch between a 3 and 2 system. Come on.

The squad is rubbish. It still needs an overhaul. You make it sound like Amorim’s system is something from Mars - get real and settle down.