Club ownership | Senior management team talk

We know that it was Ratcliffe that spoke to Tuchel himself. Thats the feck up.
Again though, it seems harsh. It's not like Ineos created a new club and Tuchel was assessing the opportunity solely that Ineos had, he looked at United, the squad and no doubt got some info on spending power and clearly thought it was not worth the risk. Ineos have no control of the past, which is where our reputation has taken such a battering, they can only be judged on things moving forwards. Sending Sir Jim as a hail mary to try and get Tuchel to join as their first pick I guess you can say they should have known if he would come or not, but they did not know if/when the sale would complete and they'd get their feet in the door. Just seems like criticising without much care for context.

Ashworth 100% we can criticise, as it makes PSR tighter (I don't really care that he didn't work out) and any signings from this summer which they have officially said were all theirs, plus Amorim.
 
Ashworth 100% we can criticise, as it makes PSR tighter (I don't really care that he didn't work out) and any signings from this summer which they have officially said were all theirs, plus Amorim.
Have to disagree. I see it as a positive that they acted quickly and decisively when it became clear Ashworth wasn’t going to work out. He was still a great hire and I’m sure he would have done well for us, but obviously he wanted autonomy to do it his way and INEOS have ultimately sided with Berrada over him as is their prerogative.

Any signings from the summer shouldn’t be being judged now, it’s too soon still. That said Mazraoui, DeLigt, Ugarte and to a certain extent (with the caveat that he clearly isn’t a no.9 striker) Zirkzee are showing signs of being good players for us.
 
Have to disagree. I see it as a positive that they acted quickly and decisively when it became clear Ashworth wasn’t going to work out. He was still a great hire and I’m sure he would have done well for us, but obviously he wanted autonomy to do it his way and INEOS have ultimately sided with Berrada over him as is their prerogative.

Any signings from the summer shouldn’t be being judged now, it’s too soon still. That said Mazraoui, DeLigt, Ugarte and to a certain extent (with the caveat that he clearly isn’t a no.9 striker) Zirkzee are showing signs of being good players for us.
Agree the speed is positive and on signings. I personally feel like Berrada should have realised at least high level, that Ashworth's remit is basically what he wants to do i.e. sit above all depts and be more ops focused.
 
To try and be positive - it is nice to have owners / a team in place who actually care about the results on the pitch. They are making mistakes along the way, and I am very fearful regarding ticket price rises, but they really have been given a hospital pass by the Glazers.

I really like the refocused recruitment on the 18-22 age group - targeting academy players for peanuts is such a low risk / high reward way to go - some of these will hopefully turn into gems moving forward.

You can see the hard reset that is being applied - if we can get Rashford / Casemiro off the wagebook then we will only have Bruno (deserved) and Mount (can't see him going anywhere until his contract ends) who earn over £200k a week. This is a far cry from the Cavani / Ronaldo / De Gea / Sancho days where our wage structure was a complete clusterfeck.

If we continue in this way, we will be in a far stronger position in a couple of years - the concern is what happens in between then and now for me.
 
Which is why I say INEOS fkd us. They made an already broken business plan of the Glazers and made it worse. Now you have 2 owners. One with the majority of shares that wont act and one with a minority that wont act but even if they wanted to they cant because they hold the minority of shares. You say it might take a couple of years. But what is this based on? Let’s say we got an oil owner (not advocating for one). Even with unlimited money how long would it take for us to start winning the league? Look at Newcastle. They have unlimited wealth and we are a worse team than them at the moment. It’s not that easy. It’s not impossible either. Maybe being lucky with signings etc we can get there in a short period. But even with unlimited wealth it will be a miracle if we mounting a serious title challenge in 3/4/5 years. Now if we start penny pinching and not spending on players then how long
I don’t think INEOS fcuked us. They were the only real offer on the table. It’s the Glazers who have fcuked us. Don’t lose sight of who our incompetent owners are.

These financial problems are not because of INEOS. Something was always going to give, the money was running out.

And it’ll take as long as it takes, I guess. We have no right to anything, we have to earn it. I hate to say it, but Liverpool is the model of a well run club that we should be emulating. They’ve done it the right way - patiently and in stages, and they are all the better for it.

Remember it took 5 years for SAF to clean out United and build it into a machine capable of winning consistently.

Man City won the lottery. We didn’t.
 
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This is the thing, alot of fans focus on only one thing... wealth and how much we spend on transfers.

There are a number of wealthy clubs in the PL, look at the money Spurs have spent over the last 3/4 years. Chelsea have spent loads of money, are they closer to winning the league now than before they spent this money? No.

Liverpool are challenging for the league without spending more than 20m in the summer.

Lets not act as if its money, it comes down to scouting, anyone can buy Caceido for 100m when they have money, its about signing the next big player and getting them to work for our club.
Of course its not one thing. Unlimited money without the other foundations is also ridiculous. But it not an either or. You need both. Maybe the plan is to get 50 mill players instead of 100 mill players. Ok good. But if they decide we need four 50 mill players then the cash better be there. Not lets get two 50 mill players this summer and 2 next summer. Even if we decide no spending in the summer like Liverpool that should be because its a tactical decision not because we have debt and we cant spend any cash for x years.
 
Of course its not one thing. Unlimited money without the other foundations is also ridiculous. But it not an either or. You need both. Maybe the plan is to get 50 mill players instead of 100 mill players. Ok good. But if they decide we need four 50 mill players then the cash better be there. Not lets get two 50 mill players this summer and 2 next summer. Even if we decide no spending in the summer like Liverpool that should be because its a tactical decision not because we have debt and we cant spend any cash for x years.
Agreed, but that is what INEOS are trying to do, by cutting costs, reducing clubs wage bill and overheads, it gives us a more sustainable model.

Its not that we are cash strapped completely, most transfers are on a payment plan, so its about getting the books in order so, if we need 4 50m players, we can get them rather than doing 2 and 2 in different windows.

In the short term, its pain, selling maybe Garnacho to get us back to a level where we can build.
 
That playing area is our history. From Georgie Best and Sir Bobby Charlton to Robson and Cantona. Rooney’s overhead kick and that Van Persie volley. Being bombed and rebuilt after the war and lifting our record breaking 19th league title.
Old Trafford is our home and engrained in our history. To knock it down and build a new stadium in one of the car parks close by would be soul destroying. The ground needs work. So did the Nou Camp and so did the Bernabau. But they weren’t knocked down either they were renovated.
You do realise a new shiny 100,000 seater stadium wouldn’t make Onana capable of saving a shot? Or Zirkzee turning into a lethal finisher?
Jim wants a new stadium because he’d be able to charge the world for season tickets and letting American pop stars hire it to perform in. He’s profiting off our club’s name and history when he’s had zero input to any of it? And to think that’s okay because ‘there’s not enough leg room’ (you haven’t said that but others have) is ridiculous
I guess everyone can have an opinion on this and I do respect your opinion and reason for not wanting a new stadium.
The fan base is split on the votes whether to build a new stadium or renovate the current one.
 
I think it's fair for many to be objective in their assessments but I can't see INEOS being a success given the resources around their respective ownership model and their approaches to resolve issues essentially exposing their own limitations.

The situation with the Glazers is such a unique instance that Manchester United's demise under their occupation is so bad it reflects poorly on the premier league for having such a poor sustainability criteria that newer rules to 'protect' clubs only happened after the Americans intervention.

Subsequently, that's only looking at the facilitated debt and omission of infrastructure development but then when you observe Woodwards / Murtough's ineptitude, it further compounds that issue with the money owed to clubs and the crippling finances which is the concurrent circumstance of the clubs efficiency today.

All in all it has created this extraordinary situation and provisionally the only ownership model that would resemble rectifying everything with the least amount of friction from an operational standpoint is middle eastern ownership or a very nuanced consortium.

INEOS simply don't have the resources to resolve these issues. The analogy that comes to mind is someone who earns 7 figures a year but is shopping around for a Koenigsegg. That salary despite being economically high is still not conducive to the market in obtaining that car assessing cost and expenses. The situation the Glazers have created has put United into a very exclusive market that the average owner can't rectify.
The current ownership is a bit of a muddle. And unorthodox, in the sense that a minority shareholder has more sway than a typical minority shareholder. The general consensus is that either INEOS becomes a majority shareholder or there is a full sale. As I mentioned before, a full sale might not mean a club without some Glazer involvement post sale.
I don't agree about resources. All of JRs failed bids for the club had him buying out the Glazers. The last rejected bid would have him paying slightly in excess of $33 a share for all the B shares owned by the Glazers, and that deal, had it been successful, would have required around $3b more funding than the existing deal. And Proof of Funding would have been provided at the time.

In may ways, what a wealthy owner can do in terms of direct investment in the club is restricted by FPP and PSR if the club is borderline wrt to the tests.
Direct investment in one or more of Women's football, community, and youth development (friendly expenses) will not improve a Club's PSR, or FPP position. Sure, the extra costs can be deducted from running expenses (wages and other operating expenses) but such investment is not revenue generative in the short to medium term. Hence, no impact on PSR.

Direct investment in facilities and the training ground (like the Carrington investment) does not impact PSR or FPP. Fixed asset value increases leading to greater depreciation costs, but as depreciation is considered a friendly expense, that too is removed from the PSR\FPP determination. As this investment does not generate revenue in the short to medium term, there is no PSR\FPP gain for the next few monitoring cycles.

Player trading is a bit more complicated. Can an owner invest heavily in new players in a situation where the the club is operating (and projected to be) near the testing limits? They can, but only if the net trading cost is close to zero. Signing a bunch of new players bring new costs (amortization and wages), but offloading unrequired players reduces those same costs, and there is the opportunity for profit on player sales. If profit on player sales is roughly equivalent to the net increase in costs, then PSR\FPP isn't in peril. Of course, if the investment in the squad is successful, then it should show in revenue (eventually), but the expectation (given our experience) that it would happen immediately is not prudent.

As for cash flow, to the extent that the owners provides direct funding to meet those costs, then cash availability is not affected.

Direct investment by an owner for a new stadium would improve FPP\PSR once the stadium is in use. Revenues increase and the enormous depreciation charge is ignored in the testing. Cash availability improves as more earnings pour through from operations.
Paying down long term debt would improve both FPP\PSR and cash flow as finance costs impact both.
Putting funding in place to cover the football debt (a problem at United) wouldn't change FPP\PSR but it would greatly improve cash flow as future earnings would no longer be required to deal with those obligations.

Those last three items would require pretty substantial direct investment from the owners. Now, the club does have an ongoing registration with the SEC to raise up to $400m from the sale of A shares\debt stock that can be exercised at any point. The registration has been amended to account for the INEOS buy-in. Whatever about the ownership machinations, you can at least assume that both parties agree that this facility could be useful.
 
Ratcliffe enabled the Glazers to keep their position in the club, otherwise the only option was the Prince who promised to pay off our debts. He’s now making all the unpopular decisions for them, saddled us with more debt, and repeating the same mistakes he made at his other club Nice.

Man’s a turnip at running a football club if you look at his record, what’s he’s great at is asset stripping. He’s a financier not a visionary leader.
 
Ratcliffe enabled the Glazers to keep their position in the club, otherwise the only option was the Prince who promised to pay off our debts. He’s now making all the unpopular decisions for them, saddled us with more debt, and repeating the same mistakes he made at his other club Nice.

Man’s a turnip at running a football club if you look at his record, what’s he’s great at is asset stripping. He’s a financier not a visionary leader.
Sorry but what mistakes has he made with Nice? This remark winds me up every time. They've done well since taking over. Nice are not a a big traditional club in France. Currently sat in 4th place above Lyon, Lille and Lens, all arguably bigger. Also miles above Saint Etienne, Nantes and Rennes.

PSG, Marseille and Monaco are in a different stratosphere to the rest of French football so what is the man meant to do to be better in your eyes?
 
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To try and be positive - it is nice to have owners / a team in place who actually care about the results on the pitch. They are making mistakes along the way, and I am very fearful regarding ticket price rises, but they really have been given a hospital pass by the Glazers.

I really like the refocused recruitment on the 18-22 age group - targeting academy players for peanuts is such a low risk / high reward way to go - some of these will hopefully turn into gems moving forward.

You can see the hard reset that is being applied - if we can get Rashford / Casemiro off the wagebook then we will only have Bruno (deserved) and Mount (can't see him going anywhere until his contract ends) who earn over £200k a week. This is a far cry from the Cavani / Ronaldo / De Gea / Sancho days where our wage structure was a complete clusterfeck.

If we continue in this way, we will be in a far stronger position in a couple of years - the concern is what happens in between then and now for me.

Good post, mate.
 
To try and be positive - it is nice to have owners / a team in place who actually care about the results on the pitch. They are making mistakes along the way, and I am very fearful regarding ticket price rises, but they really have been given a hospital pass by the Glazers.

I really like the refocused recruitment on the 18-22 age group - targeting academy players for peanuts is such a low risk / high reward way to go - some of these will hopefully turn into gems moving forward.

You can see the hard reset that is being applied - if we can get Rashford / Casemiro off the wagebook then we will only have Bruno (deserved) and Mount (can't see him going anywhere until his contract ends) who earn over £200k a week. This is a far cry from the Cavani / Ronaldo / De Gea / Sancho days where our wage structure was a complete clusterfeck.

If we continue in this way, we will be in a far stronger position in a couple of years - the concern is what happens in between then and now for me.
Not sure what makes you think that Ratcliffe / INEOS cares about results any more than Glazers did. Both of them care a little bit, of course they do, but there's no proof that either of them care about it above other things, let's say - making billions off of rebuild of the stadium and by developing surrounding area with various business complexes

However, what is VERY clear is that the whole "Ratcliffe is a lifetime United fan" is a load of SHIT. If we call "United fan" somebody who lives and breathes United, cares about it deeply, knows everything about what makes United United, and would go an extra mile to make it successful - Ratcliffe demonstrates NONE of these traits. He is a "supporter" at best

For one, no real fan would disrespect Sir Alex, a living legend of the club, or de-fund our foundations and non-profits. M..f..er has enough billions to have easily funded these things out of his pocket if the Club could not handle it. And a real fan would.

I agree with fans who are now singnig "Just like the Glazers, Jim Ratcliffe is a C**t"

 
I actually think they are doing ok and things are moving in the right direction. United is an almighty shit show of enormous proportion that will take more than 1 summer to fix. 3 years needed IMO.

Weve brought in some good players. Its just the forwards letting us down with a lack of goals. A striker and winger in summer can correct that.
 
Not sure what makes you think that Ratcliffe / INEOS cares about results any more than Glazers did. Both of them care a little bit, of course they do, but there's no proof that either of them care about it above other things, let's say - making billions off of rebuild of the stadium and by developing surrounding area with various business complexes

However, what is VERY clear is that the whole "Ratcliffe is a lifetime United fan" is a load of SHIT. If we call "United fan" somebody who lives and breathes United, cares about it deeply, knows everything about what makes United United, and would go an extra mile to make it successful - Ratcliffe demonstrates NONE of these traits. He is a "supporter" at best

For one, no real fan would disrespect Sir Alex, a living legend of the club, or de-fund our foundations and non-profits. M..f..er has enough billions to have easily funded these things out of his pocket if the Club could not handle it. And a real fan would.

I agree with fans who are now singnig "Just like the Glazers, Jim Ratcliffe is a C**t"


To be clear I am far from a Ratcliffe fan - obviously not a good bloke, Tory Brexiteer in Monaco for tax reasons etc.

But he has overpaid for his stake, and as a 70 odd year old is doing it for legacy reasons - he hardly needs the cash? He is desperate for the club to succeed - whereas the Glazers just sat on their asset and ran it into the ground.

Ratcliffe is also in a rush - Carrington renovation almost complete and the stadium renewal is well underway. To say he is just like a Glazer is not at all fair nor accurate when you compare them.

May feel like a token gesture but he’s also attended more matches in a year than the Glazers have in 20!
 
Sorry but what mistakes has he made with Nice? This remark winds me up every time. They've done well since taking over. Nice are not a a big traditional club in France. Currently sat in 4th place above Lyon, Lille and Lens, all arguably bigger. Also miles above Saint Etienne, Nantes and Rennes.

PSG, Marseille and Monaco are in a different stratosphere to the rest of French football so what is the man meant to do to be better in your eyes?

Compared to the promises he made when he arrived they have absolutely not done well
 
Compared to the promises he made when he arrived they have absolutely not done well
Ok, but that still doesn't align with your first comment that Nice are badly run? I repeat. They sit in 4th place behind PSG, Marseille and Monaco. That's about as good as it gets.
 
Ok, but that still doesn't align with your first comment that Nice are badly run? I repeat. They sit in 4th place behind PSG, Marseille and Monaco. That's about as good as it gets.

You should read in to their story after the take over. This last season is the first one where things have started moving in the right direction.
 
You should read in to their story after the take over. This last season is the first one where things have started moving in the right direction.
Last season started well but tapered off. Its not been 100% bad.

In the last 4 seasons they have finished 5th 9th 5th and now 4th in the league. So this whole INEOS dont know how to run a club myth is pure horse shit.

Historically, Nice have been a yo yo club finishing bottom half in Ligue 1 or being relegated and coming back up again.
 
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Last season started well but tapered off. Its not been 100% bad.

No and I am not claiming that. But the first few years they where run quite badly. My issue is when people claim they have been run well. Its very much been a mixed bag, starting very badly but the last season has shown improvements in their work.
 
I will say this, I really like that we clearly didnt budge on the price we where willing to pay for Dorgu. That is a clear improvement from the previous regime.
 
Ratcliffe enabled the Glazers to keep their position in the club, otherwise the only option was the Prince who promised to pay off our debts. He’s now making all the unpopular decisions for them, saddled us with more debt, and repeating the same mistakes he made at his other club Nice.

Man’s a turnip at running a football club if you look at his record, what’s he’s great at is asset stripping. He’s a financier not a visionary leader.
The Glazers didn't need to sell, they chose to take Ratcliffe's offer. There was no guarantee that they would take the Prince offer.
 
I will say this, I really like that we clearly didnt budge on the price we where willing to pay for Dorgu. That is a clear improvement from the previous regime.

I'm pro-INEOS, but one deal says very little. People were - rightly, at the time - happy with the VDB deal with Ajax. Not every transfer fee we agreed to pay prior to INEOS was a total disaster.
 
I'm pro-INEOS, but one deal says very little. People were - rightly, at the time - happy with the VDB deal with Ajax. Not every transfer fee we agreed to pay prior to INEOS was a total disaster.

Almost 90% of the deals were a disaster though... especially in the last 3 years.
 
Ratcliffe enabled the Glazers to keep their position in the club, otherwise the only option was the Prince who promised to pay off our debts. He’s now making all the unpopular decisions for them, saddled us with more debt, and repeating the same mistakes he made at his other club Nice.

Man’s a turnip at running a football club if you look at his record, what’s he’s great at is asset stripping. He’s a financier not a visionary leader.
The prince withdrew his bid. That is a fact. And that happened because he wasn’t able to confirm to United that he had the money needed. That is was what United told the SEC, the US financial regulator, who are not people you fck with. There was no option other than INEOS. Source.

At the end of the day, Jasser didn’t have the cash and the Glazers did not want to give up ownership. And nobody can make them. Nobody “enabled” the Glazers - they are the ones, as majority owners, who have always been in the driving seat.

You have to lose the idea that there was a better outcome on offer.
 
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