Club ownership | Senior management team talk

I think pratcliffe is just lashing out by stingily micromanaging the one bit of the business he can control.

Seems incompetent pr as well. Trick is to leak that the beancounters planning horrible cuts, then step in with paternalistic generosity and cancel some of them.
 
Right, because you think that it is only to make money. Can you name any owner who has bought a share of a football club at higher than market value... then gone to sell their share and make money?
I'm not sure why you put caveats in, but there's plenty of owners who have either made money or stand to make money by selling a football club.

Ashley and the Shinawatra are the two that jump to mind off the top of my head. Hicks and Gillette made a profit when they sold Liverpool to FSG, and even though he was forced to sell, Abramovic sold Chelsea for about 6 times what he bought the club for.

The list goes on. I mean hell, our own club provides an example. Malcolm Glazer bought Man Utd for £700m and his children sold 27% to Ineos for about £1.2b. That's about a 7 fold increase on Malcolm's initial investment on a full sale.

People who buy sports teams are not really in it to make short term profit because it just isnt there.

Who mentioned anything about short-term? My argument is that Ineos and Ratcliffe have invested because they think there is a longer term return, likely from some event that sees the club turnover and valuation increase beyond what they are now. Likely the new stadium and area regeneration, based on how much effort they are spending on that, but it could be their expectation that TV rights continue to increase, that the broadcasting model is changed to allow clubs to sell their own matches, a superleague, merchandise and sponsorships, etc.

It's not just Ineos - half of teams in the PL and a third of the clubs in the EFL are currently majority American-owned. That's not because they all love football and really enjoyed Welcome to Wrexham and Match of the Day and want to live the dream. They are almost all millionaire or billionaire investors with a background in private equity and asset management. They will all have different business models and exit strategies, but every one has invested because they believe that they will see a return on it as the football industry continues to grow.
You seem to think its profit, how much do you think they will make on their £1.5bn investement?

I doubt even Ineos would be able to say with any accuracy what they expect their return will be. Given how Ratcliffe likes to reference Arsenal a lot, I wouldn't be surprised if they are looking at them for a similar model. E.g. get a new stadium and regularly place in the CL, increase the revenue and the value of the club whilst increasing their ownership %, sell at a certain point once they think the 'industry' has peaked or is on a downward trend. It took Kroenke a decade and £1b to acquire Arsenal's shares, but they are currently valued at over twice that and look poised to continue to rise in value given how much Chelsea were sold for.

Add to that all the time they are spending on the football club, the efforts to get it back to standard. Why would someone who wants to make money, spend money on DoF and managers?

Because you don't make money by having somebody like Woodward in charge of the most significant expenditures of your club? I'm not saying Ratcliffe wants to raffle off Bruno and Onana and pocket their sale fees for a quick buck. He wants to run the club in a way that maximises turnover, minimises costs and increases the overall value. That involves doing things like appointing a DOF who knows not to give Casemiro £350k a week and a manager who is capable of getting the club into the top half of the table.

I don't understand how any of this is controversial. It is far less believable to think that a billionaire would spend over a billion pounds acquiring a stake in a company and be completely happy to write it off for the greater good of seeing Man Utd lift a Champions League trophy. It would be fanciful to believe that any billionaire would do that, never mind a billionaire who tried to buy Chelsea a few months earlier.
 
Facts are any sporting institution Ineos take over are worse after them. Deal with it instead of defending disgusting cost cutting from greedy owners.
I don't get the 'greedy' view people have.

Unlike the Glazers they're not taking any money out of the club. They want the club to be financially stable to be able to improve the infrastructure and the team.

I don't agree with some of the cost cutting measures but it's pretty much tough. He's inherited an absolute shit show financially and structurally and he's trying to get it back to a place where we're not screwed.

Was it greedy of him to put in £250m of his own money? Greedy to finally upgrade Carrington? Install and actual footballing structure above the manager (albeit with teething problems)?

It's nonsense. He's doing all he can to get money back into the club. Some things have been smart like saving wages on Rashford, Sancho and Antony, inserting decent buy back options or sell ons in the players we've sold, cutting (possibly too much - remains to be seen) an overly bloated staff that will save £30m (or a Dorgu) per season. He's also made some shit decisions, like cancelling charity payments etc.

I think we're in for a rough couple of years of correcting the course of the club before it gets better but I think it unfortunately needs doing.
 
You are probably the first person to say that about Arnold.

Many companies, when things are going well, allow their workforce to get bloated.

I agree, the 250 people that were laid off were doing "something". The question is, can business of Manchester United still be operated as effectively without them? If 20% of people have been cut, maybe INEOS feel there is an extra 20% of effort that the remaining members of staff can give to cover those that have left. I know a lot of people could easily give 20% more effort to their work and still not be overly worked.

I have been in firms that have done the same. I have been a part of the lucky ones that remained and after a little time for it all to sink in, things go back to normal and the work gets done in the same way as it did before. If shortfalls are found, people are brought in to cover them.

I have no problem with cutting jobs. It's logical and as a business i agree with it

I just dont think saving 1m by cutting lunch is a wise move. The bad rep alone is not worth 1m per year for a club as big as United.

Coach, managers, and players would think twice joining us with this signaling we're in serious shit we have to cut lunch.
 
Right, because you think that it is only to make money. Can you name any owner who has bought a share of a football club at higher than market value... then gone to sell their share and make money?

People who buy sports teams are not really in it to make short term profit because it just isnt there.

You seem to think its profit, how much do you think they will make on their £1.5bn investement?

Add to that all the time they are spending on the football club, the efforts to get it back to standard. Why would someone who wants to make money, spend money on DoF and managers?
The glazers bought the club for 800m. They got 1.4B for a 25% stake, they racked millions selling junk A shares throughout the years and the debt is still there. There is economic potential in united if managed well and you find the right buyer. That potential increase if somehow the taxpayer is forced to fork some of not all of OT

Why do you think that they refuse to sell more equity?
 
It’s a combination of an investment and wanting to improve the club on and off the pitch. I don’t think he is here to make a huge profit as there simply isn’t one at the club and won’t be for a lot time. He also isn’t here to throw his money at the club for the sake of it,

If he ever does end up the majority owner I expect he’d put more money to stabilise the club but he’s not here to bankroll it.

He only has 27% of the share so the overall value of the club has to shoot up massively for him to make anything worth his while in the short term. I doubt anyone would even give him back what he paid at the moment and will be a long time before his shares are worth more than he paid.

I mean, in theory a return on his investment and wanting to improve the club go hand in hand. If the club returns to consistent CL participation or gets a new stadium, then the turnover and club value increases and his ownership stake is worth more than it is now.

My point is just that we should see him for what he is. He's a businessman who believes he will make money by owning part of Man Utd. We can hope that his plan to make money aligns nicely with our desire to support a team that we can be proud of, but we shouldn't pretend that he's some benevolent red knight come to save the club from evil Glazer mismanagement.
 
I don't get the 'greedy' view people have.

Unlike the Glazers they're not taking any money out of the club. They want the club to be financially stable to be able to improve the infrastructure and the team.

I don't agree with some of the cost cutting measures but it's pretty much tough. He's inherited an absolute shit show financially and structurally and he's trying to get it back to a place where we're not screwed.

Was it greedy of him to put in £250m of his own money? Greedy to finally upgrade Carrington? Install and actual footballing structure above the manager (albeit with teething problems)?

It's nonsense. He's doing all he can to get money back into the club. Some things have been smart like saving wages on Rashford, Sancho and Antony, inserting decent buy back options or sell ons in the players we've sold, cutting (possibly too much - remains to be seen) an overly bloated staff that will save £30m (or a Dorgu) per season. He's also made some shit decisions, like cancelling charity payments etc.

I think we're in for a rough couple of years of correcting the course of the club before it gets better but I think it unfortunately needs doing.

Well said.

These people calling him greedy have their heads so far up their own backside, it's almost coming back out of their mouth.

He will probably never in his lifetime see a return on the money already invested. That money is gone. There's a few things to criticise him for, but being greedy? The lack of critical thinking around this subject is crazy.
 
The glazers bought the club for 800m. They got 1.4B for a 25% stake, they racked millions selling junk A shares throughout the years and the debt is still there. There is economic potential in united if managed well and you find the right buyer. That potential increase if somehow the taxpayer is forced to fork some of not all of OT

Why do you think that they refuse to sell more equity?

He bought into a club paying top wages, fees, with enormous debt etc etc, whilst winning nothing and requiring serious investment just to get back to where it was. He paid over the market rate, and he was one of only two parties even interested in buying the club in the first place. What sort of investment is this for a 70 odd year old bloke? A shit one, is the answer. I think I also read that the new TV deals represent a reduction in income compared to previous seasons (I could be wrong here), so it may also be that the football/PL bubble has already burst and they have missed their chance to sell at its highest. The super league is also dead in the water also, so no room for major new income there either.
 
I don't get the 'greedy' view people have.

Unlike the Glazers they're not taking any money out of the club. They want the club to be financially stable to be able to improve the infrastructure and the team.

I don't agree with some of the cost cutting measures but it's pretty much tough. He's inherited an absolute shit show financially and structurally and he's trying to get it back to a place where we're not screwed.

Was it greedy of him to put in £250m of his own money? Greedy to finally upgrade Carrington? Install and actual footballing structure above the manager (albeit with teething problems)?

It's nonsense. He's doing all he can to get money back into the club. Some things have been smart like saving wages on Rashford, Sancho and Antony, inserting decent buy back options or sell ons in the players we've sold, cutting (possibly too much - remains to be seen) an overly bloated staff that will save £30m (or a Dorgu) per season. He's also made some shit decisions, like cancelling charity payments etc.

I think we're in for a rough couple of years of correcting the course of the club before it gets better but I think it unfortunately needs doing.

Well said.

These people calling him greedy have their heads so far up their own backside, it's almost coming back out of their mouth.

He will probably never in his lifetime see a return on the money already invested. That money is gone. There's a few things to criticise him for, but being greedy? The lack of critical thinking around this subject is crazy.
Thumbs up and likes for both these posts. Well done guys, keep fighting the good fight and maybe one day logic and reason can win out. Although Probably not…..
 
He bought into a club paying top wages, fees, with enormous debt etc etc, whilst winning nothing and requiring serious investment just to get back to where it was. He paid over the market rate, and he was one of only two parties even interested in buying the club in the first place. What sort of investment is this for a 70 odd year old bloke? A shit one, is the answer. I think I also read that the new TV deals represent a reduction in income compared to previous seasons (I could be wrong here), so it may also be that the football/PL bubble has already burst and they have missed their chance to sell at its highest. The super league is also dead in the water also, so no room for major new income there either.
A 70 year old bloke with a net worth in Billions...why doesn't he hang up his boots and sail the world in his yacht.
 
They get called this yet even with the cost cutting SJR and INEOS will not be making any profit for a long time.
It’s an absolutely mind blowingly stupid claim.
The only owner investment into the club since 2005 (or not the clubs own money or debt) is the 300m that sir Jim has invested. Bear in mind this is his personal wealth too, not INEOS money up to now.

As for the claim it’s a long term investment solely interested in profit, I’m sure it’ll really pay off for him when he’s dead. :rolleyes:
 
Wild guess… maybe he actually gives a crap?
Or he is like any other Billionaire and wants to keep on accumulating. He was trying to buy Chelsea just a few months before. Those unfortunately are facts, not wild guesses.

How many laughing emoji's should I have used?
 
A 70 year old bloke with a net worth in Billions...why doesn't he hang up his boots and sail the world in his yacht.

Status symbol. Lots of billionaires have a yacht or 6. Even a version of United brought to its knees is still a unique asset.

Same reason for his medicore forays into F1, sailing etc
 
It’s an absolutely mind blowingly stupid claim.
The only owner investment into the club since 2005 (or not the clubs own money or debt) is the 300m that sir Jim has invested. Bear in mind this is his personal wealth too, not INEOS money up to now.

As for the claim it’s a long term investment solely interested in profit, I’m sure it’ll really pay off for him when he’s dead. :rolleyes:
The club has to be self-sufficient due to PSR. We can debate if he's cutting the right areas, but it should be pretty obvious to most people here that a business (that all football clubs have been since they went professional) can't spend above it's means and employ too many people. I don't even like INEOS and I wouldn't say this.
 
Or he is like any other Billionaire and wants to keep on accumulating. He was trying to buy Chelsea just a few months before. Those unfortunately are facts, not wild guesses.

How many laughing emoji's should I have used?
But he doesn't stand to make a profit any time soon and may not even live to see it.
 
You think that a billionaire bought a minority stake in Man Utd for a reason other than wanting to make money? Ineos didn't invest because Jim's a lifelong fan who wants to use his billions to bring Man Utd back to glory, he did it because he thinks it will make him richer. He might be wrong, he might have overpaid, his exit strategy might not work etc, but we have to be realistic about why he's here.

Also I'm not sure why you think that the potential returns are minimal. Dozens of international businesses, investment firms and states are investing in football because they think it will generate them a return of some description.

They're not making a £1.5b back anytime soon and certainly not within his lifetime. I honestly don't believe he has invested to make money, he said himself this is a poor investment for making money and there are plenty of better opportunities for him to make money on £1.5b. I do trust that he is getting on a bit and simply wanted to try to turn things around here (albeit maybe without throwing all his own money at it). It's the only thing that makes sense, unless he is investing for future generations of Ratcliffes to profit when the club owns it's own TV rights and plays most of our league games in different continents.
 
Or he is like any other Billionaire and wants to keep on accumulating. He was trying to buy Chelsea just a few months before. Those unfortunately are facts, not wild guesses.

How many laughing emoji's should I have used?
He wasn't trying very hard to buy Chelsea, seeing as he rather deliberately missed the deadline for bids.
 
They get called this yet even with the cost cutting SJR and INEOS will not be making any profit for a long time.
Ineos knows that the Glazers stayed because they think the value of the club will be higher in few years time.
Cost cutting is mean to help the value to grow and I sincerly doubt Ineos will buy the club.
So they still can make a profit in few years time depending of the sale of the club.
I may be wrong but I don’t think Radcliff is here because he loves the club. You just don’t let it in the hands of Glazers of that’s the case.
They can still get a lot of money if the value grows.
So saying they won’t be profits for a long time is just not true. Football owners don’t make money by making year on year profit most of the time but by waiting the sale of the asset.
 
Status symbol. Lots of billionaires have a yacht or 6. Even a version of United brought to its knees is still a unique asset.

Same reason for his medicore forays into F1, sailing etc
The idea because he gives a crap or wants to do it out of the goodness of his heart is ludicrous.

Prestige and a future return on investment are the motivations.

Malcom Glazer bought the club when he was in his 70's...wonder how many were using this train of thought back then.
 
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Or he is like any other Billionaire and wants to keep on accumulating. He was trying to buy Chelsea just a few months before. Those unfortunately are facts, not wild guesses.

How many laughing emoji's should I have used?
He already owns Nice and Lausanne. Big whoop. The attraction is obviously the cachet and prestige of the PL, and in particular the top clubs. He’s not trying to buy Ipswich or Southampton is he?!

The Chelsea ‘bid’ was deliberately AFTER the deadline as a PR stunt to let the glazers know he had the cash and was ready to buy. Do you not think that it’s somewhat coincidental that this happened when Knighton was kicking off in the press about buying the club and associating himself with Ratcliffe?
 
He already owns Nice and Lausanne. Big whoop. The attraction is obviously the cachet and prestige of the PL, and in particular the top clubs. He’s not trying to buy Ipswich or Southampton is he?!

The Chelsea ‘bid’ was deliberately AFTER the deadline as a PR stunt to let the glazers know he had the cash and was ready to buy. Do you not think that it’s somewhat coincidental that this happened when Knighton was kicking off in the press about buying the club and associating himself with Ratcliffe?
Oh...it was to let the Glazers know he has cash....let's not talk nonsense, please.
 
Let's put it this way - would you? Or would you buy the club you (supposedly, according to him) love and try to sort it out as your legacy? If I had his money at his age, I'd do exactly the same.
I don't know, I am not a billionaire. And there isn't a chance in hell that I am going to become one. I like wasting time on an internet forum. :D

However, if you look at others of his ilk, age never ever is a roadblock for their avarice. I don't know of many who decided to just call it day and have an early retirement. Like, I mentioned in another post, Malcolm bought the club when he was the same age as Jimmy and no one thought he bought it to "give a crap".

You may have other reasons to believe that he is going to turn our fortunes around; however, I am not buying that at his age he only bought a stake because it was hurting him to see United suffering.
 
You just don’t let it in the hands of Glazers of that’s the case.
The Glazers were controlling the bidding process. Sir Jim’s first offer was for 100% of the Glazer shares. He was prepared to buy them all and take majority ownership of the club. The Glazers refused his offer.

He can’t force any business owner to sell if they don’t want to.
 
They're not making a £1.5b back anytime soon and certainly not within his lifetime. I honestly don't believe he has invested to make money, he said himself this is a poor investment for making money and there are plenty of better opportunities for him to make money on £1.5b. I do trust that he is getting on a bit and simply wanted to try to turn things around here (albeit maybe without throwing all his own money at it). It's the only thing that makes sense, unless he is investing for future generations of Ratcliffes to profit when the club owns it's own TV rights and plays most of our league games in different continents.
You're obviously entitled to your opinion, even if the idea of him not caring about a return sounds crazy to me.

One question - if you think that he's here because he wants to turn things around and get Man Utd back to winning things, why did he try and buy Chelsea a few months before buying us?
 
I don't get the 'greedy' view people have.

Unlike the Glazers they're not taking any money out of the club. They want the club to be financially stable to be able to improve the infrastructure and the team.

I don't agree with some of the cost cutting measures but it's pretty much tough. He's inherited an absolute shit show financially and structurally and he's trying to get it back to a place where we're not screwed.

Was it greedy of him to put in £250m of his own money? Greedy to finally upgrade Carrington? Install and actual footballing structure above the manager (albeit with teething problems)?

It's nonsense. He's doing all he can to get money back into the club. Some things have been smart like saving wages on Rashford, Sancho and Antony, inserting decent buy back options or sell ons in the players we've sold, cutting (possibly too much - remains to be seen) an overly bloated staff that will save £30m (or a Dorgu) per season. He's also made some shit decisions, like cancelling charity payments etc.

I think we're in for a rough couple of years of correcting the course of the club before it gets better but I think it unfortunately needs doing.
Great post. Agreed it will be a long road, but the club has been destroyed by the Glazers and has to be fixed on every level.
 
It was reported by far more connected people than me. The only people talking nonsense is you and Redfrog.
Right, obscure Jimmy needed to prove he has the cash by bidding for Chelsea. What if Chelsea was not up for sale, who'd he have bid for then? Did people "more connected than you" tell you that? Or did they keep it a secret.
 
He bought into a club paying top wages, fees, with enormous debt etc etc, whilst winning nothing and requiring serious investment just to get back to where it was. He paid over the market rate, and he was one of only two parties even interested in buying the club in the first place. What sort of investment is this for a 70 odd year old bloke? A shit one, is the answer. I think I also read that the new TV deals represent a reduction in income compared to previous seasons (I could be wrong here), so it may also be that the football/PL bubble has already burst and they have missed their chance to sell at its highest. The super league is also dead in the water also, so no room for major new income there either.
There's many non tangible benefits of being owners of Manchester united. For example prior to ineos ownership no one knew who ineos were. These days everyone speaks of ineos as if they are the owners of the most successful club in the world

Back to United. You described the club's situation correctly which really makes me wonder as of why ineos bought a stake in it. The club needs serious investment, ineos would be stupid to pump their own money unless they get equity and the glazers seems reluctant to sell any more equity.

So I wonder if the idea of ineos is to make the necessary cuts, make the club as lean as possible, probably get all the permits + funding for OT and then sell. Everyone gets his cut and the new owner will have a lean club with a million ways on how to appease the fans
 
Not a single person thinks it's all INEOS' fault. But keep trotting that and maybe people will start believing it.
 
Not a single person thinks it's all INEOS' fault. But keep trotting that and maybe people will start believing it.
There are absolutely some people on here who believe that the state of the current team is down to INEOS because they haven't fixed the mistakes of the past
 
I have no problem with cutting jobs. It's logical and as a business i agree with it

I just dont think saving 1m by cutting lunch is a wise move. The bad rep alone is not worth 1m per year for a club as big as United.

Coach, managers, and players would think twice joining us with this signaling we're in serious shit we have to cut lunch.

The dross we are serving up on the field and potential lack of European football is what will turn off players joining, not whether staff at the training ground get free lunch or not.
 
There are absolutely some people on here who believe that the state of the current team is down to INEOS because they haven't fixed the mistakes of the past
Only in the imaginary world of the INEOS' supproters (which is a weird thing).

Bring me some posts that say our current state is all INEOS' fault and has nothing to do with the Glazers.
 
Not a single person thinks it's all INEOS' fault. But keep trotting that and maybe people will start believing it.
Always the problem with discourse here.

Criticize anything INEOS does and dozens of posters will ask why you blame INEOS for everything and not the Glazers.

Criticize anything the manager does and dozens of posters will ask why you blame the manager for everything and not the players or the directors.