Club ownership | Senior management team talk

[golden_blunder]

If that is the case, better for United, there will be voluntary redundancies as no one wants to work at a toxic place right? How come I have not seen any journalists come out and tell us how many people have quite because its toxic place to work.

No one is forced to work at United, if they feel its toxic, they should quit.

Its laughable to think that a business that is making huge losses for 5 years will not make harsh decisions.

No one in the right mind would quit a job right now, especially those who may face redundancy. There is so much competition for jobs now. I read LinkedIn everyday and there are jobs advertised which are drawing a thousand applications for one job. That’s the marketplace right now.
So, if they are going to be out of work you may as well hang about and see if you’re going to get any redundancy money.
If you’re kept on, then you are still in employment

 

[golden_blunder]

It's better to sack the whole scouting department. They should bear most of the blame for the shite show. Leave the canteen open

It’s not the same people it was 5 years ago so I think you can stop beating that drum

 

[Redfrog]

These penny pinching decisions are a drop in the ocean compared to the debt/footballing expenses. It's cruel and makes absolutely no significant difference in either the short or long term finances of the club. Unless we are literally on the verge of going bust.

Yeah, saving Rashford’s and Casimero’s wage is more then 30 millions a year.
But the problem is the cantine…

 

[The Mitcher]

It’s not the same people it was 5 years ago so I think you can stop beating that drum

Also, it's quite clear they got ignored by our managers a lot. Seen plenty of stories were the scouts raised certain issues and we went and got a player anyway. But clueless fans will just blame the scouts as if they are the ones that buy the players.

 

[romufc]

No one in the right mind would quit a job right now, especially those who may face redundancy. There is so much competition for jobs now. I read LinkedIn everyday and there are jobs advertised which are drawing a thousand applications for one job. That’s the marketplace right now.
So, if they are going to be out of work you may as well hang about and see if you’re going to get any redundancy money.
If you’re kept on, then you are still in employment

Yes, but if its as toxic as some people are making it out to be to work there, people would quit.

 

[Redfrog]

Dont worry, in some people's minds... the reason for the financial mess is because we sacked Ten Hag and Ashworth. That is the reason we are losing 100m a year, its got nothing to do with previous regime and past failures.

Free meal 1 million a year (that’s me being generous).
Rashford and Casemiro’s wage : more then 30 millions by year.
Ten Haag and Ashworth is 20 millions down the toilet.

But right, free meal is the problem.

 

[golden_blunder]

Yes, but if its as toxic as some people are making it out to be to work there, people would quit.

No they won’t because nobody can afford to quit a job right now

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Yes. If offered at the job offering it's not fair to simply take it away. If the situation is so dire and it's a small company the workers will understand.

But a 5 bn valuation company penny pinching can be a downer.

There are certain standards to how low efficiency can go. And it's beyond 1M per annum, it's about sending a message that you're not important to us. feck you and your free lunch.

Company often paid good money for employee retention programs such as seminar, family outing, communal facility all in the name of efficiency. Ours is to cut their lunch.

I hope Ineos never reimburse his private jet to the corporate expense tab

Maybe he should asked Mr Glazer for the alleged 15m it cost to fly him over and hotel for three cup finals. Sorry chum we need the money to buy a CF.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

No they won’t because nobody can afford to quit a job right now

The ones in supposed secure jobs out there keep saying there are loads of jobs. No there aren't, places are being shut down, firms are not recruiting new staff because of the NI hikes. Jobs that are available might be in specific skills that our ex-staff don't have. How much experience have we just ditched to save money?

 

[romufc]

Free meal 1 million a year (that’s me being generous).
Rashford and Casemiro’s wage : more then 30 millions by year.
Ten Haag and Ashworth is 20 millions down the toilet.

But right, free meal is the problem.

Do you just say things without seeing what is happening? Or do you pick what suits your agenda more?

Firstly, before INEOS made the cuts to the free lunches, they have made cuts to all other areas of the organisation.

I get you didn't want Ten Hag sacked from your post... the only way we saved the £14m from Ten Hag's sacking was to keep him, so that is a different conversation about you wanting Ten Hag to stay on.

Secondly, these wages you keep mentioning, have you not been paying attention to anything? We didn't re-sign Varane cause of wage, we loaned out Sancho because of the wage.

We loaned out Anthony and Rashford to save on wages, or are you going to ignore these things?

We are making efforts to sell players on high wages, no new signing that INEOS has brought in, is over 250k a week.

No one has ever said free meals is the problem, this is the assumption you are making.

When a overheads review is done for a company... they look at various areas to make savings, I remember seing the same nonsense from you and other fans when SAF £1m a year salary was cut.

Now, if you cut £1m in 10/15 different areas.... it makes a saving of £10/15m.

They pushed Rashford out, if he was on 100k, he would not have been pushed out, so it is OBVIOUS they are looking at the players with high wages too.

 

[golden_blunder]

The ones in supposed secure jobs out there keep saying there are loads of jobs. No there aren't, places are being shut down, firms are not recruiting new staff because of the NI hikes. Jobs that are available might be in specific skills that our ex-staff don't have. How much experience have we just ditched to save money?

The job market is truly brutal right now

 

[RuudTom83]

We're literally a few places above the zone, it isn't nonsense.

So you think Leicester or Ipswich are going to suddenly double their points tally in the final 3rd of the season to catch United?

That sounds like nonsense if you ask me.

 

[Plant0x84]

Yeah, saving Rashford’s and Casimero’s wage is more then 30 millions a year.
But the problem is the cantine…

Ok, so Rashford is out at Villa who are covering a large proportion of his wages.

Casemiro is reluctant to leave for lower wages which is understandable (if not popular) nobody wants to be paid less. Can you explain how we break his contract and drop his wages without getting sued out of existence? Especially when the window is closed. You asssume the club ISNT trying to move out overpaid and under performing players?

The focus is on sporting achievement. Costs must be cut across the club, and we are in a sell to buy situation. Maybe you are happy to continue being mediocre on the pitch so the poor unloved masses can have their free lunch?

 

[Redfrog]

Do you just say things without seeing what is happening? Or do you pick what suits your agenda more?

Firstly, before INEOS made the cuts to the free lunches, they have made cuts to all other areas of the organisation.

I get you didn't want Ten Hag sacked from your post... the only way we saved the £14m from Ten Hag's sacking was to keep him, so that is a different conversation about you wanting Ten Hag to stay on.

Secondly, these wages you keep mentioning, have you not been paying attention to anything? We didn't re-sign Varane cause of wage, we loaned out Sancho because of the wage.

We loaned out Anthony and Rashford to save on wages, or are you going to ignore these things?

We are making efforts to sell players on high wages, no new signing that INEOS has brought in, is over 250k a week.

No one has ever said free meals is the problem, this is the assumption you are making.

When a overheads review is done for a company... they look at various areas to make savings, I remember seing the same nonsense from you and other fans when SAF £1m a year salary was cut.

Now, if you cut £1m in 10/15 different areas.... it makes a saving of £10/15m.

They pushed Rashford out, if he was on 100k, he would not have been pushed out, so it is OBVIOUS they are looking at the players with high wages too.

Extend ETH contract and then sack him was idiotic. I was for sacking him in the Summer.
Finishing 15th will cost a lot more then the savings they are making.
If you don’t think all what is happening at the club don’t affect players, you are deluded. Their moral are at the worst, like for all other staff member. They are human and all the doom and groom are affecting their performances, they are humans, it’s psychological.
Bruno paid for tickets for women team families. Do you think all that is happening is not affecting the players ?
They are millionnaires but from labour background for most of them. They don’t think just about profit like all the greedy millionaires who run us.

 

[Redfrog]

Ok, so Rashford is out at Villa who are covering a large proportion of his wages.

Casemiro is reluctant to leave for lower wages which is understandable (if not popular) nobody wants to be paid less. Can you explain how we break his contract and drop his wages without getting sued out of existence? Especially when the window is closed. You asssume the club ISNT trying to move out overpaid and under performing players?

The focus is on sporting achievement. Costs must be cut across the club, and we are in a sell to buy situation. Maybe you are happy to continue being mediocre on the pitch so the poor unloved masses can have their free lunch?

They are cutting costs but profits too by finishing 15th. I am sure all what is happening are affecting player performances. They are humans and feel Down because they see people in a bad mood all around them. Ineos created this toxicity.
All is not about Numbers. All of you defending the disgusting way we are run with Ineos only look at Numbers but close their eyes on the psychological side and can’t think about why we are in free fall.

 

[gajender]

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/61...es-cuts-explained/?source=user_shared_article

Thanks for the article link but there is no mention of saving figures there.

 

[romufc]

Extend ETH contract and then sack him was idiotic. I was for sacking him in the Summer.
Finishing 15th will cost a lot more then the savings they are making.
If you don’t think all what is happening at the club don’t affect players, you are deluded. Their moral are at the worst, like for all other staff member. They are human and all the doom and groom are affecting their performances, they are humans, it’s psychological.
Bruno paid for tickets for women team families. Do you think all that is happening is not affecting the players ?
They are millionnaires but from labour background for most of them. They don’t think just about profit like all the greedy millionaires who run us.

So, can you show me where, if we sacked him in the summer, it would be for free.. I keep seeing this oh we wasted money on sacking Ten Hag, so when was it ever free to sack him?

INEOS cannot control where we finish, they employ managers for this.

Well, I dont care if it affects the players, they are the reason we are 15th as well, I am not feeling sorry for overpaid players who cannot be asked to perform. People like you will feel bad for them, but I definitely wont.

You mention that INEOS are the reason players are feeling toxic.. are you saying pre INEOS our player morale was the best and we were winning PL titles? Interesting, I have seen numerous reports over the years about the mood not being good around the club.

 

[romufc]

am sure all what is happening are affecting player performances.

Yeah because before the cuts, all our players were in form, we were challenging for the title, scoring loads of goals, Rashford was running alot.

Soon as INEOS announced job cuts, they all down toolsed right?

 

[Redfrog]

So, can you show me where, if we sacked him in the summer, it would be for free.. I keep seeing this oh we wasted money on sacking Ten Hag, so when was it ever free to sack him?

INEOS cannot control where we finish, they employ managers for this.

Well, I dont care if it affects the players, they are the reason we are 15th as well, I am not feeling sorry for overpaid players who cannot be asked to perform. People like you will feel bad for them, but I definitely wont.

You mention that INEOS are the reason players are feeling toxic.. are you saying pre INEOS our player morale was the best and we were winning PL titles? Interesting, I have seen numerous reports over the years about the mood not being good around the club.

Well, you don’t get what I am saying to you ?
It’s not about being sorry for the players. It’s about having a working environnement where you get out as much as you can from the players. And it’s easier to be productive when you are feeling happy then when you are miserable. As a human being if I see miserable people around me , I will feel miserable too because I am empathic like most human beings. No matter how much the players are paid, they are humans and will be sensible even more so if they are from the same working class which they are for most of them.
The environnement was toxic before but Ineos made that much worse. We are 15th !
Amorim said once, with all the people losing their job, the players should do their best and feel responsible, which resumed all the gloom happening. But it was very naive to say that psychologicaly. You don’t put that much responsablities on players, a lot of them being very young. It will paralyse most of people. They are just playing football. That’s too much pressure.
You may not care about the players, but carring is what made SAF so special. Everyone feel safe with him. Now the players are exposed in the worst way. And it is visible on the pitch.

 

[romufc]

Well, you don’t get what I am saying to you ?
It’s not about being sorry for the players. It’s about having a working environnement where you get out as much as you can from the players. And it’s easier to be productive when you are feeling happy then when you are miserable. As a human being if I see miserable people around me , I will feel miserable too because I am empathic like most human beings. No matter how much the players are paid, they are humans and will be sensible even more so if they are from the same working class which they are for most of them.
The environnement was toxic before but Ineos made that much worse. We are 15th !
Amorim said once, with all the people losing their job, the players should do their best and feel responsible, which resumed all the gloom happening. But it was very naive to say that psychologicaly. You don’t put that much responsablities on players, a lot of them being very young. It will paralyse most of people. They are just playing football. That’s too much pressure.
You may not care about the players, but carring is what made SAF so special. Everyone feel safe with him. Now the players are exposed in the worst way. And it is visible on the pitch.

Okay, you seem to think that all these cost cutting is having such a big impact on the players, let me ask you one question.

Do you know what is the biggest motivator in jobs? Its money. people can say whatever they want, monetary is the main motivator in any job.

So if players dont care about what they are on and care about external staff, do you think players will be happy to take 50k cut each per week and we hire more staff who are happy and jolly, hire some comedians to make them laugh, do you think we will start challenging for the league?

 

[Strangest Tribe]

The only reason people want them is because they thought of them as a 'silver bullet', who'd come in and buy us the trinkets we feel
entitled to.

Nope, the reason I wanted them had absolutely nothing to do with “trinkets” and everything to do with getting rid of the Glazers permanently so stop peddling baseless lies

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Nope, the reason I wanted them had absolutely nothing to do with “trinkets” and everything to do with getting rid of the Glazers permanently so stop peddling baseless lies

Don't worry we won't be getting any trinkets now, we are likely going to flog the family silver.

 

[Lebowski]

The potential returns on United are minimal though. He bought us at a price way above market value and I doubt he ever sees a meaningful return on it as an investment.

You think that a billionaire bought a minority stake in Man Utd for a reason other than wanting to make money? Ineos didn't invest because Jim's a lifelong fan who wants to use his billions to bring Man Utd back to glory, he did it because he thinks it will make him richer. He might be wrong, he might have overpaid, his exit strategy might not work etc, but we have to be realistic about why he's here.

Also I'm not sure why you think that the potential returns are minimal. Dozens of international businesses, investment firms and states are investing in football because they think it will generate them a return of some description.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

If they do build a new stadium, wonder how much they will get flogging the seats in the old stadium to fans. Bits of the leaky roof. Have your own OT urinal.

 

[Plant0x84]

They are cutting costs but profits too by finishing 15th. I am sure all what is happening are affecting player performances. They are humans and feel Down because they see people in a bad mood all around them. Ineos created this toxicity.
All is not about Numbers. All of you defending the disgusting way we are run with Ineos only look at Numbers but close their eyes on the psychological side and can’t think about why we are in free fall.

Ok, let’s go bankrupt and see how that affects morale! See how down the players feel when they are playing in Lg 2.

 

[Plant0x84]

Thanks for the article link but there is no mention of saving figures there.

I literally quoted the relevant paragraph.

 

[Plant0x84]

The environnement was toxic before but Ineos made that much worse. We are 15th !

We were 14th when ten Hag was sacked. Hardly ‘much worse’. Stop making up rubbish and deal in facts.

 

[romufc]

Ok, let’s go bankrupt and see how that affects morale! See how down the players feel when they are playing in Lg 2.

I have heard it all now. First the managers were the reason players were not playing well, incorrect set up and all.

Now, its because there are cuts happening at the club, the players are demotivated and not playing well.

Its funny that players like Maguire, Casemiro, Lindelof, Shaw, Mount who dont play much and on decent wages, who can leave the club for a better atmosphere decide to stay.. but I am told by Redfrog, its not about the money they are on.

Complete and utter crap, the players couldn't give a dam what is happening in the canteen.

 

[wolvored]

I don’t know if it’s been mentioned here but apparently the staff went up by about 400 when Covid was on wfh and we had 300-400 more staff than anyone else to run a team when Ineos came in. I saw this on YouTube on Saturday and can’t find it now, so may be bullshit. It was on Utd stand futv Alice talks football or some other similar show I watch when killing time waiting for the missus to come back.
Has anyone else saw this as I was telling my mate and he wanted to view it. Although I watched it Saturday it could have been made anytime since they came in I suppose.

 

[Lebowski]

A lot likely got these perks to make up for being vastly underpaid.

By all accounts, Man Utd are a poor payer. They have historically tried to pay people under the market rate by relying on the prestige and goodwill that comes from 'working for Man Utd'. With the exception of the playing staff, of course.

There's a certain irony that we are a club that pay wages far beyond their market value to players whilst they underperform, but underpay the staff behind the scenes on comparatively tiny salaries. You can buy a lot of paninis and busses to Wembley for half of Casemiro's weekly wage.

 

[Beachryan]

I don't follow it as closely as I used to, but it does feel like the U18 and U21s are doing MUCH better in the past season and a half. That should in theory really open things up for us, both in terms of possibly promoting players but moreso getting in some decent fees on propects.

Are the first football club to make staff cuts? Of course not. But we're the first to have those cuts headline news. Being a United fan is exhausting.

 

[Plant0x84]

Ineos didn't invest because Jim's a lifelong fan who wants to use his billions to bring Man Utd back to glory, he did it because he thinks it will make him richer.

Oh god! this has been debunked many times over, including by sir Jim himself who had said he has INEOS to make him money. A business which generates tens of billions in revenue, compared to Uniteds mere hundreds of millions.
Clearly he invested 1.25bn and a further £300m direct to the club (which is a loss making entity currently) to MAKE money.
This is such a lazy and false narrative - try some independent thinking!

 

[Plant0x84]

I have heard it all now. First the managers were the reason players were not playing well, incorrect set up and all.

Now, its because there are cuts happening at the club, the players are demotivated and not playing well.

Its funny that players like Maguire, Casemiro, Lindelof, Shaw, Mount who dont play much and on decent wages, who can leave the club for a better atmosphere decide to stay.. but I am told by Redfrog, its not about the money they are on.

Complete and utter crap, the players couldn't give a dam what is happening in the canteen.

It’s all about the ‘feels’.

 

[Lebowski]

Oh god! this has been debunked many times over, including by sir Jim himself who had said he has INEOS to make him money. A business which generates tens of billions in revenue, compared to Uniteds mere hundreds of millions.
Clearly he invested 1.25bn and a further £300m direct to the club (which is a loss making entity currently) to MAKE money.
This is such a lazy and false narrative - try some independent thinking!

By 'independent thinking' I assume you mean 'believe the press releases from a billionaire'?

I'm still not clear what you believe his motivation is: are you saying that Ineos bought shares in Man Utd knowing it would lose them money because they really want to make a lad from Failsworth's dream come true to see United win another Champion's League before he dies?

 

[romufc]

By 'independent thinking' I assume you mean 'believe the press releases from a billionaire'?

I'm still not clear what you believe his motivation is: are you saying that Ineos bought shares in Man Utd knowing it would lose them money because they really want to make a lad from Failsworth's dream come true to see United win another Champion's League before he dies?

Right, because you think that it is only to make money. Can you name any owner who has bought a share of a football club at higher than market value... then gone to sell their share and make money?

People who buy sports teams are not really in it to make short term profit because it just isnt there.

You seem to think its profit, how much do you think they will make on their £1.5bn investement?

Add to that all the time they are spending on the football club, the efforts to get it back to standard. Why would someone who wants to make money, spend money on DoF and managers?

 

[RuudTom83]

Time and time again the upper management at United do absolutely nothing to protect the manager.

Giving Amorim the title of “Head Coach” should remove him from any discussion over staff redundancies.

The press officer is completely useless too!

 

[Roboc7]

I can still remember it now. I bet we all can. When City pipped us to the league on goal difference in 2012. Oh how we all bemoaned our bloated admin staff. If only we got rid of a few hundred of them, we would’ve won yet another title.

Those famous terrace chants “we want kitchen staff out”, the hairs on the back of the neck still stand up.

Oh hang on, I don’t remember anybody saying the way to future success was staff cuts until INEOS told us it was. Silly me.

Although in 2012 the staff numbers were roughly 700 which is similar to what they will

You think that a billionaire bought a minority stake in Man Utd for a reason other than wanting to make money? Ineos didn't invest because Jim's a lifelong fan who wants to use his billions to bring Man Utd back to glory, he did it because he thinks it will make him richer. He might be wrong, he might have overpaid, his exit strategy might not work etc, but we have to be realistic about why he's here.

Also I'm not sure why you think that the potential returns are minimal. Dozens of international businesses, investment firms and states are investing in football because they think it will generate them a return of some description.

It’s a combination of an investment and wanting to improve the club on and off the pitch. I don’t think he is here to make a huge profit as there simply isn’t one at the club and won’t be for a lot time. He also isn’t here to throw his money at the club for the sake of it,

If he ever does end up the majority owner I expect he’d put more money to stabilise the club but he’s not here to bankroll it.

He only has 27% of the share so the overall value of the club has to shoot up massively for him to make anything worth his while in the short term. I doubt anyone would even give him back what he paid at the moment and will be a long time before his shares are worth more than he paid.

 

[McGrathsipan]

I don't follow it as closely as I used to, but it does feel like the U18 and U21s are doing MUCH better in the past season and a half. That should in theory really open things up for us, both in terms of possibly promoting players but moreso getting in some decent fees on propects.

Steady on there with your positivity mate. We'll get notions.

 

[Redfrog]

We were 14th when ten Hag was sacked. Hardly ‘much worse’. Stop making up rubbish and deal in facts.

Facts are any sporting institution Ineos take over are worse after them. Deal with it instead of defending disgusting cost cutting from greedy owners.

 

[gaffs]

It may be a bit more, but Arnold and co arent stupid. Theyre CEO. I doubt they handed jobs like santa claus. Those 250 employee must be doing something even if it's only customer service, foreign correspondence, or even tea lady. You dont expect to cut 250 employee and dont feel any kickback either directly or indirectly. Employees are human, most of them would be disgruntled being treated like this.

Im all up for efficiency, but cutting lunch to save 1m is very petty. If we're up to that stage where 1m is the difference between surviving or going bankrupt we might as well go bankrupt.

Those 1M is peanuts when you think that staff can get lunch on working days. Having to buy your own lunch means their Take Home Pay would be much less. We're all working, we know how much it cost to BYO lunch.

I have no problem if they force Mason Mount and Casemiro to go, put them on reserve for all i care. But this is too much. We're supposed to be the biggest club in the world, we dont have to resort to this surely. I'd even pay the lunch cost to save face. This is humiliating. 1m per year for feck sake, not even per month

feck Ineos. I started to think they want to drive United to the ground so they can buy us cheap.

How on earth can they get football control while eyeing to buy the club. That's conflict of interest

You are probably the first person to say that about Arnold.

Many companies, when things are going well, allow their workforce to get bloated.

I agree, the 250 people that were laid off were doing "something". The question is, can business of Manchester United still be operated as effectively without them? If 20% of people have been cut, maybe INEOS feel there is an extra 20% of effort that the remaining members of staff can give to cover those that have left. I know a lot of people could easily give 20% more effort to their work and still not be overly worked.

I have been in firms that have done the same. I have been a part of the lucky ones that remained and after a little time for it all to sink in, things go back to normal and the work gets done in the same way as it did before. If shortfalls are found, people are brought in to cover them.