Club ownership | Senior management team talk

How much financial trouble are INEOS actually in?

No one really knows but the press at the moment are reporting huge issues with other investments and the downgrading of their credit rating is extremely worrying?

It might be fair to now suggest that SJR has blagged Man United with a terrible deal and he doesn’t have the spare £2-3billion to invest in the club. We could genuinely be a mid table Championship team in the next 2-3 years. I just can’t see how they are able to invest the money needed to turn the club round!

I can soon see that SJR, Berrada and Brailsford will genuinely fear to come to old Trafford for the abuse they will suffer from the home support. Things are only going to get worse before they get better!
 
£1bn spent on interest payments and still owing £1bn. I try to detach myself form it all but I feel like crying.
 
Woziak said:
How much financial trouble are INEOS actually in?

No one really knows but the press at the moment are reporting huge issues with other investments and the downgrading of their credit rating is extremely worrying?

It might be fair to now suggest that SJR has blagged Man United with a terrible deal and he doesn’t have the spare £2-3billion to invest in the club. We could genuinely be a mid table Championship team in the next 2-3 years. I just can’t see how they are able to invest the money needed to turn the club round!

I can soon see that SJR, Berrada and Brailsford will genuinely fear to come to old Trafford for the abuse they will suffer from the home support. Things are only going to get worse before they get better!
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INEOS are not in financial trouble though...

When the checks are carried out, you can't really blag that you have 2/3bn without proving it, its not how this works.

We are not going to be a championship team.. that would mean us getting relegated this season and not coming back up.. which is so far fetched.

Things already are worse... they are going to get better after this summer window.
 
I swear people think INEOS have come into a fully functioning, stable, working club and that they're intent on running the club into the ground.

I don't really know exactly how competent INEOS or the team in charge are but it seems to me that they have come in and are making changes based on all the inefficiency they found:
- A bloated workforce
- A crumbling stadium
- No sporting structure
-- including overpaid players and terrible recruitment
- Out dated training facilities

Did I miss anything ?

You got the Glazers to thank for all of this. INEOS are having to make decisions based on a decade plus of neglect from the owners!
 
Salford_Red83 said:
I swear people think INEOS have come into a fully functioning, stable, working club and that they're intent on running the club into the ground.

I don't really know exactly how competent INEOS or the team in charge are but it seems to me that they have come in and are making changes based on all the inefficiency they found:
- A bloated workforce
- A crumbling stadium
- No sporting structure
-- including overpaid players and terrible recruitment
- Out dated training facilities

Did I miss anything ?

You got the Glazers to thank for all of this. INEOS are having to make decisions based on a decade plus of neglect from the owners!
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You are missing the whole point. Glazers got to the point where they were in trouble as they didn't have the cash to keep going they had bled us so much and had to get investment or full sale, the problem is also that someone offered them that investment to keep them going and those same people (Ineos) have wasted equally as much money pro-rata'd on wrong decisions.
 
romufc said:
INEOS are not in financial trouble though...

When the checks are carried out, you can't really blag that you have 2/3bn without proving it, its not how this works.

We are not going to be a championship team.. that would mean us getting relegated this season and not coming back up.. which is so far fetched.

Things already are worse... they are going to get better after this summer window.
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I didn’t say SJR I said INEOS, their credit rating has been revived down for a reason
Read they have huge financial issues right now. SJR has his own money but he might need to use £1 billion if that personal wealth to keep his INEOS main businesses afloat?

https://www.fitchratings.com/research/corporate-finance/fitch-revises-ineos-group-outlook-to-negative-affirms-idr-at-bb-21-01-2025#:~:text=Fitch%20Ratings%20%2D%20London%20%2D%2021%20Jan,Finance%20LLC%20at%20'BB%2B'.

We could still get relegated this year I original got 250/1 now it’s 80/1 that means there’s a chance. How will they get better in the summer without European Football, you’ve already lost £60-70m this year on revenue due to no CL Football, next season you would have Revenue of under £600m and still have huge interest charges to service Legacy and transfer debt.
 
romufc said:
INEOS are not in financial trouble though...

When the checks are carried out, you can't really blag that you have 2/3bn without proving it, its not how this works.

We are not going to be a championship team.. that would mean us getting relegated this season and not coming back up.. which is so far fetched.

Things already are worse... they are going to get better after this summer window.
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Yeah they're increasing their debt to finance a project that will bring in far more than what they're paying. But anything that can be skewed to look negative towards United at present is good to go and believed.
 
AngeloHenriquez said:
You are missing the whole point. Glazers got to the point where they were in trouble as they didn't have the cash to keep going they had bled us so much and had to get investment or full sale, the problem is also that someone offered them that investment to keep them going and those same people (Ineos) have wasted equally as much money pro-rata'd on wrong decisions.
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That's just not true. Neither are Glazers personally broke, nor have problems with cash flow ever stopped United from taking more credit and there was no indication that this season would be in any way special. Conditions for loans might have gotten worse, but its not something that they ever cared about in the first place.
 
Lemoor said:
That's just not true. Neither are Glazers personally broke, nor have problems with cash flow ever stopped United from taking more credit and there was no indication that this season would be in any way special. Conditions for loans might have gotten worse, but its not something that they ever cared about in the first place.
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Never claimed them to be personally broke but their ability to run the cashflow within our club was falling further with credit lines maxed out.

They had maxed out their credit facility and knew they had so many committed funds to future years that they wouldn't have (nor just be able to pump in which is something they have NEVER done) they needed someone in to give the cash injection they require and it's clear that they also needed a new "Face" as unrest was building.
 
AngeloHenriquez said:
Never claimed them to be personally broke but their ability to run the cashflow within our club was falling further with credit lines maxed out.


They had maxed out their credit facility and knew they had so many committed funds to future years that they wouldn't have (nor just be able to pump in which is something they have NEVER done) they needed someone in to give the cash injection they require and it's clear that they also needed a new "Face" as unrest was building.
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It was falling further, but it was falling like that for a decade and there was no indication that they were right about to hit some sort of a cliff. They could always open new credit lines, or renegotiate the existing ones. It would probably be on worse conditions and obviously much worse for the club, but as long as banks think that they can get their money back they can keep borrowing.

Obviously that's pure speculation, but as much as I would expect them to renegotiate the credit, if they were put against the wall I sincerely doubt that they would let go of an asset they seem to believe is worth 6 billion pounds because of a cashflow issue that is 1% of that. Ratcliffe was a solution for both bolded issues and it's probably the reason they started looking for buyers at all, but I just don't see any reason to believe that if he decided not to bid that it would force them to do anything they really didn't want to do.
 
Oh.

NEW: The Glazers sold Sir Jim Ratcliffe a 28.94% stake for £715m, retaining majority control while outsourcing operational responsibility and public criticism to him.

The deal includes "drag-along" rights, potentially forcing Sir Jim Ratcliffe to sell if the Glazers opt for a full sale later, netting them further profit.

 
NEW: Sir Jim Ratcliffe has implemented a “zero-based budgeting” policy, in which every single item of expenditure is scrutinised in an attempt to drive down costs.

Cartons of screws are being individually counted by the group property services team at Manchester United. Meanwhile, staff have noted how the portion sizes in the canteen at Old Trafford are smaller now and there is less variety, and bulk orders of vegetables at Carrington require sign-off.

One employee joked it would be easier to “smuggle drugs” than to send a letter, with envelopes scarce, stamps expensive and the emphasis very much on email.

 
UnitedSofa said:
NEW: Sir Jim Ratcliffe has implemented a “zero-based budgeting” policy, in which every single item of expenditure is scrutinised in an attempt to drive down costs.

Cartons of screws are being individually counted by the group property services team at Manchester United. Meanwhile, staff have noted how the portion sizes in the canteen at Old Trafford are smaller now and there is less variety, and bulk orders of vegetables at Carrington require sign-off.

One employee joked it would be easier to “smuggle drugs” than to send a letter, with envelopes scarce, stamps expensive and the emphasis very much on email.

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:lol: as someone who does financial planning for living, can't help but laugh.
 
Relieved that despite all the cuts Jimbo still managed to find money in the clubs piggy banks for his private limo
 
Tiber said:
Relieved that despite all the cuts Jimbo still managed to find money in the clubs piggy banks for his private limo
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Yeah that was one of the main bits of the article that pissed me off. I’m not naive, I know this is how business works, but it’s pathetic. Buy your own limo you cnut.
 
AngeloHenriquez said:
You are missing the whole point. Glazers got to the point where they were in trouble as they didn't have the cash to keep going they had bled us so much and had to get investment or full sale,
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The only 'full sale' option decided to back out after fecking up their own bid.

It's depressing the only major bids were from an incompetent, over-promoted sheikh and Ideos, but there we go.

UnitedSofa said:
Oh.

NEW: The Glazers sold Sir Jim Ratcliffe a 28.94% stake for £715m, retaining majority control while outsourcing operational responsibility and public criticism to him.

The deal includes "drag-along" rights, potentially forcing Sir Jim Ratcliffe to sell if the Glazers opt for a full sale later, netting them further profit.
Click to expand...

You do have to hand it to the Glazers, sometimes, you really do.

Smashed open the sheikh's bid in order to drive up Ineos' offer and likely will drive out Ratcliffe for more money.

If only they were as good negotiating transfers, we'd probably wind up loving them.
 
UnitedSofa said:
NEW: Sir Jim Ratcliffe has implemented a “zero-based budgeting” policy, in which every single item of expenditure is scrutinised in an attempt to drive down costs.

Cartons of screws are being individually counted by the group property services team at Manchester United. Meanwhile, staff have noted how the portion sizes in the canteen at Old Trafford are smaller now and there is less variety, and bulk orders of vegetables at Carrington require sign-off.

One employee joked it would be easier to “smuggle drugs” than to send a letter, with envelopes scarce, stamps expensive and the emphasis very much on email.

Click to expand...


The media is really turning the screw on the bad news over the last few days...

Imagine just getting by, your job under constant threat and scrutiny and having to look at this out of touch wanker in the headlines every day? I'd be searching frantically for a new employer
 
UnitedSofa said:
Oh.

NEW: The Glazers sold Sir Jim Ratcliffe a 28.94% stake for £715m, retaining majority control while outsourcing operational responsibility and public criticism to him.

The deal includes "drag-along" rights, potentially forcing Sir Jim Ratcliffe to sell if the Glazers opt for a full sale later, netting them further profit.

Click to expand...


This had been known by everyone since he bought his share, how is this news?
 
Red in STL said:
Why would the PL clubs vote for it - it's not in their interest to see United with lots of money, most of them don't pay out dividends anyway
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And it's also not in the interest of owners to get rid of the option to drain the clubs they own for money. Most don't do it, but football is usually bad investment and if times get tough some owners might prefer to sacrifice their vanity investment to keep their other stuff floating.
 
UnitedSofa said:
'During a tour of Carrington, Sir Jim Ratcliffe asked women's team captain Katie Zelem what she did at #mufc, despite her being a long-time player and England international'
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In fairness, he probably hasn't watched a game of women's football in his life. There's probably a fair few on here who couldn't identify a female player by sight, including one from our team.

What's really telling is how the women's team has improved in spite of Ineos, whilst the men's team descend rapidly.
 
stefan92 said:
Fecking hell, 25,000 limit for the CEO of a company the size of United? I was in a position for a while where I could spend a similar amount as a simple engineer :lol:
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United are a tiny company in business world terms
 
Media are absolutely loving this. We get that there's serious cost cutting measures going on, some of it likely ridiculous, but it's certainly not helping lift the constant negativity around the club with daily updates of it all.

Finding it extremely tedious at this point.
 
romufc said:
This is just nonsense really. You do not have to be bought out by a state to get change.

I dont understand why fans think that 12 years of mismanagement can be undone in 1 year... this is not a video game.
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It’s a really important point that we all need to remember.

That’s hard for most because it’s a ‘now’ world, with social media putting the pressure on more than ever, and driving toxicity

It all adds up to fans having no patience.

I get the concerns about INEOS, and their own financial difficulties has me wondering about the impact on United but as you say more than a decade of mismanagement is not going to magically disappear overnight.
 
OverratedOpinion said:
Everything you've said there is subjective and speculative, which is fine. But the only thing we have to go on are the consistently high viewing figures. Which reflect the fact that United are commonly amongst the most followed clubs.

I think you'd be shocked at how many people would pay £20 a month to watch Utd's matches live.

Even 10 million worldwide would take our TV/Streaming rights to 2.4 billion per year.

I believe 10 million is quite a conservative figure.
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I think they’ve missed that boat. The amount of stream services now will reduce the number of paid subs quite significantly
 
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