Ha! I loved Remi!I think he does too. But I think there is, in some quarters, a perceived lack of recognition that has it's roots beyond matters of mere football.
Both of them were a poor man's Remi Moses anyways
Clearing up some myths about Roy Keane
- Thread starter gav81
- Start date
A hero of the game my username refers to and had Platini in his pocket in the semi.
Injury did for him.
Just wondering how in your opinion would he be an "idiot of a man"?
What he did to Ipswich Town was unforgivable
How about going out of his way to end someone's career...Just for a start
Not sure if that qualifies under "idiot of a man" but each to their own.
Same. Was a heartbreaking chapter. Felt like reading about ones dad crying.
I love his personality and for some reason I'm convinced that he is nice.
Lmao well I don't think there is a literal category but it definitely qualifies as reckless selfish idiotic I could go on. Incredible talent but a total loon
Don't agree with everything he's said since he left but can't help but still like the guy. Fantastic player and comfortably one of the best I've seen in a United shirt.
My favorite player ever.
I'm glad to see a thread giving him proper recognition of his talent and character.
I'm glad to see a thread giving him proper recognition of his talent and character.
I just had a mental image of Gary Neville being our manager and Keano his assistent, which amounts to Gary living in a constant state of fear.
I enjoyed reading that OP.
Keane could surprise some people if he returns to management. All too often a manager is written off as hopeless after one bad period; with the exception of possibly Guardiola there is not one manager on the planet who hasn't gone through a bad patch.
Keane could surprise some people if he returns to management. All too often a manager is written off as hopeless after one bad period; with the exception of possibly Guardiola there is not one manager on the planet who hasn't gone through a bad patch.
Brian Clough used to punch his players and own supporters, so you could say Keane has come a long way if he only once gave his captain a mild, glancing slap round the head. Of course I'm joking, but in seriousness that occurred at half-time of a cup match where Sunderland trailed Northampton 2-0 at the Stadium of Light. As Keane put it, “From the start, it was walking pace, nobody sprinting, the passing was awful, nobody was prepared to run off the ball...”
Whatever Keane did at half time there worked because Sunderland came back to draw 2-2 and win the match on penalties. And it doesn't appear to have upset Dean Whitehead, who said three months after Keane left Sunderland, “He did a great job here and we ain’t got a bad word to say about him.” So perhaps in actual fact Keane knew the relationship and boundaries he had with Whitehead and how best to motivate him.
I only wonder why yourself, 8 years after the event, or Yorkie who broke the story in his autobiography, are trying to make something of it. I know in Yorkie's case he wasn't happy at training with the reserves after Keane felt he had taken his eye off the ball, and that he left the club on bad terms with Keane. Not to mention wanting to sell his book. Maybe that could be it. Whatever the case, mountain out of a molehill comes to mind.
About Keane's comment on Clive Clarke, it was clearly a bit of dark humour which, if you read Keane's book, he accepts he shouldn't have said. To put it into context a little, Keane was responding to some harsh criticisms Clarke (who had twice been sent out on loan by Keane) had recently made. With Clarke three months into a recovery and those criticisms he made, it's not a surprise Keane was not in the most sympathetic mood at that time. You know, if Clarke was well enough to dish it out, then he was well enough to take a bit of stick.
Also to add, before the criticisms and jokes started, Keane did phone to offer support when it happened which Clarke accepted, “was nice of him”.
Anyhow, I agree that Keane can divide opinion, as can any manager. Especially amongst players they do not favour. You can find a player giving a bad opinion on almost any manager. Even Ferguson and Mourinho have had their fair share of player fallouts. I think what is important is that those instances remain in the minority, and for Keane that is certainly the case.
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Yeah, it keeps me, and other members of a Manchester United forum, wide awake at night. The thoughts of it makes me piss the bed
Was just about to post this exact example. "Mess with Nev, will you? Try me on for size" Vieira basically ran away. Love the man, whatever the truth about these myths are. One of the greatest United players ever.
good thread @gav81
That is such an overstatement. Keane leaving us was an end of an era. But to compare him with Pogba is just naive.
Time will tell....If Pogba can do half of what Keane done for us, he'll have been a bargain
What an amazing post, these are extracts from Keano's book that interest me -
He said, ‘United.’ He would have known I still had that little bit of resentment.
So I said, ‘Why do you support United?’
And he said, ‘Well, I was born in Manchester and I’m not going to support City, am I?’
I said, ‘Okay.’
That was a good enough reason. And I thought to myself, ‘I’d better get us some season tickets.’
We went to see them recently, and I was going, ‘Come on—!’
feckin’ hell – come on.
I want them to do well"
"My first day – you’d have thought a couple of school kids would have been dragged in by
a dad or granddad. But there wasn’t one person watching. I didn’t mind, but it seemed to say
something. That warmth wasn’t there. Then there was the blue training kit. I don’t like feckin’ blue. City were blue, Rangers were blue. My biggest rivals were blue. Is that childish?"
At the start of the new year, 2004, we were at the top of the table. But we were used to that. We’d won fifteen, lost three – against Chelsea, Southampton and Fulham – and drawn one.
Some of the new players were taking time to settle in. Kléberson came in, but he had no luck. He picked up a bad injury. His girlfriend came to England with him. She was very young, and heavily pregnant. He found it hard to settle and get going – to get some good performances under his belt, a couple of good games, get his confidence going. Eric Djemba-Djemba – a really nice lad – struggled. He couldn’t get a good run of games. David Bellion came in from Sunderland. He was another nice lad, but I think the club might have been a bit too much for him. When I was a young kid at United, Nicky Butt and Paul Scholes were coming through. Now, the likes of Beckham and Jaap Stam were leaving and I’d look at some of the new lads and think, ‘No, they’re not the answer.’ It was just a step too far for some of them.
But we always had a good dressing room – and that’s vitally important. I remember when Diego Forlán came in, and it wasn’t quite happening for him. If a player tried – and Diego did – we’d drag him with us; we’d try and help him. Plenty of praise in training, or during games; not getting on his back. Diego was honest, so in training you’d go, ‘Unlucky; it’ll come good tomorrow’, not ‘You can do feckin’ better than that.’
"As I walked to the front I heard something going on at the top of the tunnel. All I could see was a few fingers, pointing at Gary [Neville]. I lost it. Five seconds earlier I'd been perfectly calm, in the zone, ready for the match.
"I'd thought they might have booted him out on the pitch. But in the tunnel? I just thought 'The f---ers'. They were trying to bully him. They were a big team and, in the tunnel, they were even bigger. So I said to myself 'Alright, let's go.'
"If it had come to a fight, Patrick [Vieira] could probably have killed me."
"I said, 'Don't you f---ing talk to me about loyalty, Carlos. You left this club after 12 months a few years ago for the Real Madrid job. Don't you dare question my loyalty.'"
"I said [to agent Michael Kennedy], 'Come on Michael, I've had enough of them -- f--- 'em. We've lost respect for each other.' My leaving the club, the way I look at it now, it was definitely for the benefit of Manchester United.
"If the manager and Carlos felt that I was up to whatever they thought I was up to, if there was that awkwardness, then it was best for everybody that I go. And let me suffer the consequences. Let me cry in my car for two minutes. If it benefited Manchester United, so be it."
"I look at the current players, and they should have been doing a lot better. It might be argued that it was up to the manager to motivate them. But not liking a manager, for whatever reason, can never be an excuse for not going out and doing your best.
"Looking at what happened to David Moyes, I have to conclude that he can't have had a strong dressing-room: he had a weak dressing room.
"I loved everything about United. From the day I signed for them. I just think it suited my personality. I loved the team, I loved the way we played. I liked all the lads, I liked the training, I liked the way we travelled. I liked the pressure. I liked the United fans. I thought they were pretty switched on, even when we lost – they’d be going mad, but a nice mad. I liked the demands. The kit. The badge. The history. I liked living in Manchester. I got on well with the manager. There was trust there – a big word in football. I liked the staff. Everyone at the training ground. The groundsmen. The different coaches over the years. Brian Kidd. Jim Ryan. Steve McClaren. Walter Smith. Carlos Queiroz. Micky Phelan. And winning – I enjoyed the winning."
On his feelings for the club
"I still have that soft spot for United, and thank God I do. I took my son to the Champions League final, between Bayern and Dortmund, at Wembley, in 2013. He was going on about different teams, and I asked him, ‘Which team do you support?’
He said, ‘United.’ He would have known I still had that little bit of resentment.
So I said, ‘Why do you support United?’
And he said, ‘Well, I was born in Manchester and I’m not going to support City, am I?’
I said, ‘Okay.’
That was a good enough reason. And I thought to myself, ‘I’d better get us some season tickets.’
We went to see them recently, and I was going, ‘Come on—!’
feckin’ hell – come on.
I want them to do well"
On his time in Ipswich - I found it funny at the irrational view he has to the colour blue.
"My first day – you’d have thought a couple of school kids would have been dragged in by
a dad or granddad. But there wasn’t one person watching. I didn’t mind, but it seemed to say
something. That warmth wasn’t there. Then there was the blue training kit. I don’t like feckin’ blue. City were blue, Rangers were blue. My biggest rivals were blue. Is that childish?"
Here's the forlan one. Despite all the negativity keane gets he knew how to handle people. it may not seem like it, but here is how he treated a more secluded forlan. Some players love being shouted at, it motivates, while others prefer a softer approach. I am more of the latter kind
At the start of the new year, 2004, we were at the top of the table. But we were used to that. We’d won fifteen, lost three – against Chelsea, Southampton and Fulham – and drawn one.
Some of the new players were taking time to settle in. Kléberson came in, but he had no luck. He picked up a bad injury. His girlfriend came to England with him. She was very young, and heavily pregnant. He found it hard to settle and get going – to get some good performances under his belt, a couple of good games, get his confidence going. Eric Djemba-Djemba – a really nice lad – struggled. He couldn’t get a good run of games. David Bellion came in from Sunderland. He was another nice lad, but I think the club might have been a bit too much for him. When I was a young kid at United, Nicky Butt and Paul Scholes were coming through. Now, the likes of Beckham and Jaap Stam were leaving and I’d look at some of the new lads and think, ‘No, they’re not the answer.’ It was just a step too far for some of them.
But we always had a good dressing room – and that’s vitally important. I remember when Diego Forlán came in, and it wasn’t quite happening for him. If a player tried – and Diego did – we’d drag him with us; we’d try and help him. Plenty of praise in training, or during games; not getting on his back. Diego was honest, so in training you’d go, ‘Unlucky; it’ll come good tomorrow’, not ‘You can do feckin’ better than that.’
On the Arsenal tunnel fight:
"As I walked to the front I heard something going on at the top of the tunnel. All I could see was a few fingers, pointing at Gary [Neville]. I lost it. Five seconds earlier I'd been perfectly calm, in the zone, ready for the match.
"I'd thought they might have booted him out on the pitch. But in the tunnel? I just thought 'The f---ers'. They were trying to bully him. They were a big team and, in the tunnel, they were even bigger. So I said to myself 'Alright, let's go.'
"If it had come to a fight, Patrick [Vieira] could probably have killed me."
On a fall-out with Carlos Queiroz:
"I said, 'Don't you f---ing talk to me about loyalty, Carlos. You left this club after 12 months a few years ago for the Real Madrid job. Don't you dare question my loyalty.'"
On his exit:
"I said [to agent Michael Kennedy], 'Come on Michael, I've had enough of them -- f--- 'em. We've lost respect for each other.' My leaving the club, the way I look at it now, it was definitely for the benefit of Manchester United.
"If the manager and Carlos felt that I was up to whatever they thought I was up to, if there was that awkwardness, then it was best for everybody that I go. And let me suffer the consequences. Let me cry in my car for two minutes. If it benefited Manchester United, so be it."
On United under David Moyes:
"I wonder about the current United dressing room. When a manager like Sir Alex Ferguson is replaced the new man needs a helping hand. Does that mean every player should like him? No.
"I look at the current players, and they should have been doing a lot better. It might be argued that it was up to the manager to motivate them. But not liking a manager, for whatever reason, can never be an excuse for not going out and doing your best.
"Looking at what happened to David Moyes, I have to conclude that he can't have had a strong dressing-room: he had a weak dressing room.
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Roy gave his 99 CL winners medal to Jim.
As said by others he was an example to everybody when it came to desire to win. He drove us on a lot of times, a leader by example. Vital cog in the team but so were quite a few others at the time.
That's the football side though as a person I don't rate him at all and that's being kind. Based on personal encounter with him.
I can see where the comparisons with SAF come from as he matches his will to win. The major difference is SAF has people skills something essential for a manager. Hence why I don't think Keane will ever make a top manager.
That's the football side though as a person I don't rate him at all and that's being kind. Based on personal encounter with him.
I can see where the comparisons with SAF come from as he matches his will to win. The major difference is SAF has people skills something essential for a manager. Hence why I don't think Keane will ever make a top manager.
Can't believe people so casually forget Tom Cleverley.
What a rubbish post. Take your head out of Keane's ass.
Sir Alex is the biggest cnut alive. Jesus Christ.
Also find it laughable that you seem to have a problem with Scholes criticising the club, but with Keane it is put down as "brutal honesty".
Whereas Keane was just bitter until Alex Ferguson left. Scholes has never said he doesn't care about Manchester United.
So you didnt read rest of paragraph?
Totally agreed. And I also really liked the OP.
Guardiola's immediate success and SAF's enduring dominance is a very skewed action standard to measure a football managers success. The reality is that only one manager in a generation will ever come close to delivering either.
In Keane's case, I prefer to judge his managerial career in a standard context: Like SAF, he has spent the first 10 years as manager expanding his repertoire of skills, making mistakes on the job and learning from them and adjusting his approach as he gained more tactical knowledge. Likewise, he has had to develop as a leader of people, especially in the areas of negotiation, diplomacy and media skills.
This adjustment is a perfectly normal start to managerial career, but for Keane, its been undertaken under intense media analysis and alongside instant success managers like Guardiola, Simione and a few others. Keane may not become as good a manager as he was a player ... if he was, he'd rival the likes of Lippi and Capello. But likewise, he still has the time to make this grade.
As for his status at the club, he is one of the very most influential players in the history of the club and the player of his generation. Whilst the romantic opinion rightly focuses on Cantona, Keane was the primary reason for SAFs dominance: he was the best midfield player in the world during his peak, our 1990s 4-4-2 formation would never have worked without him and his on field leadership skills are unsurpassed.
Its very unfortunate he left in acrimonious circumstances but that does not diminish his achievements or contribution at all. Likewise, I think he has earned the right to comment on the club as he see's fit and I will always give his opinions merit and seriousness; I always cringe when I read United fans criticise him for critiquing the club.
It would be amazing if he could further develop as a manager and take over after Mourinho: He deserves that post way ahead of any other current ex player.
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It's interesting how Keane "losing it" (his own words) in the tunnel with Viera is celebrated. Don't get me wrong there's an element of that which I really fires me up but there's a counter argument that it's (another) example of him being unable to control himself.
Great player but, as above, he overstepped the mark a couple of times on and off the pitch and clearly has anger management issues (something he has alluded to himself) That's partly why I would place Robson ahead of him but also because of Robbo's superior goal scoring stats.
It's pretty obvious to me that Keane's got a chip on his shoulder and that manifests itself now in his punditry, and his book selling exploits, as being deliberately controversial. He also knows it's his selling point so he exploits it which is fair enough but, for example, describing the tackle that shattered Shaw's leg as "brilliant" was just bang out of order. We get it Roy - you're a hard man and not a yes man "like the rest" Stuff like that from him is predictable and really fecking unnecessary.
He remains a legend but attempts such as those of the OP to airbrush out the man's unpleasantness don't wash with me.
Great player but, as above, he overstepped the mark a couple of times on and off the pitch and clearly has anger management issues (something he has alluded to himself) That's partly why I would place Robson ahead of him but also because of Robbo's superior goal scoring stats.
It's pretty obvious to me that Keane's got a chip on his shoulder and that manifests itself now in his punditry, and his book selling exploits, as being deliberately controversial. He also knows it's his selling point so he exploits it which is fair enough but, for example, describing the tackle that shattered Shaw's leg as "brilliant" was just bang out of order. We get it Roy - you're a hard man and not a yes man "like the rest"
Stuff like that from him is predictable and really fecking unnecessary.He remains a legend but attempts such as those of the OP to airbrush out the man's unpleasantness don't wash with me.
It's interesting how Keane "losing it" (his own words) in the tunnel with Viera is celebrated. Don't get me wrong there's an element of that which I really fires me up but there's a counter argument that it's (another) example of him being unable to control himself.
Great player but, as above, he overstepped the mark a couple of times on and off the pitch and clearly has anger management issues (something he has alluded to himself) That's partly why I would place Robson ahead of him but also because of Robbo's superior goal scoring stats.
It's pretty obvious to me that Keane's got a chip on his shoulder and that manifests itself now in his punditry, and his book selling exploits, as being deliberately controversial. He also knows it's his selling point so he exploits it which is fair enough but, for example, describing the tackle that shattered Shaw's leg as "brilliant" was just bang out of order. We get it Roy - you're a hard man and not a yes man "like the rest"
He remains a legend but attempts such as those of the OP to airbrush out the man's unpleasantness don't wash with me.
He clearly does, but as a fan, I accept those faults and so don't criticise him foe them.
I also think he has good reason for having 'a chip on his shoulder'. His exit from the club was unnecessary and very badly managed. Its one a very few incidents that SAF deeply disappointed me, and I eulogise SAF more than most.
I'm a fan also but, like with any other player, I don't think that means you can't be critical.
The "chip on his shoulder" predates his exit from United and in fact his United career. I'm alluding to something that for me goes a lot deeper.
I meant specifically the anger management issues. He has some. I accept it. So no point or basis for me to criticise him for it.
As for where those issues come from, its not my business to know or try to solve!
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Which is?
Personally as @sammsky1 said, his anger issues were indeed a fault but one I accepted. Its what drove him as a player, expecting the best of himself and the best of his team mates and not just accepting it when things went wrong. Maybe how he communicated it wasn't always helpful or accurate but I would imagine that over the course of his career he generally motivated the team in the right way and set examples that was for the betterment of the club.
SAF and Keane needed each other to succeed and while neither man covered themselves in glory with their public/book comments it was a small price to pay for the years of success.
I totally agree with this, he is just flawed like most of us.
Very few,if any, that slag him off as a person have probably never met him and that says more about them then anything else...
I'm not saying I know. It's just pretty obvious that he's an angry man and always has been. He remains angry.
I'm posting in response to an OP that talks of Keane being overly criticised and misrepresented amongst United fans. I don't think he is and is recognised as a club legend but it seems that some don't like Roy's more unpleasant character traits being discussed. Yes he had extraordinary drive and much of that would have come from anger but there have been times when he can't keep a lid on it.
It's all very well folk saying they "accept" his faults but when he starts with comments like the one re the Shaw tackle I think he needs to be told to wise up.
So that rule applies on every individual i'm guessing? What bullshit. So presumably nobody can slag Ryan Giggs and John Terry off as a person because they've never met them?
Would love to have been a fly on the wall in the dressing room if Keane had played under Moyes or LVG. Christ, that would have been box office!!
I'd do anything to have 25 year old Keane running the midfield right now.
The term "world class" gets bandied about far too regularly these days, Keane however, was the very definition of the term. He would have walked into any team in the world during his prime years.
The term "world class" gets bandied about far too regularly these days, Keane however, was the very definition of the term. He would have walked into any team in the world during his prime years.
It’s this type of thing I struggle with. When someone takes an instance (a positive of Keane defending a teammate and firing up his team in this case) and focusses on two words Keane said in an effort to make him out as some headcase who is unable to control himself.
I blame the media for it as “Keane says he ‘lost it’” obviously makes for an attention grabbing headline. But surely we are able to look at the event, watch the video of the incident and think for ourselves…
Honestly, think of a time you or someone else ‘lost it’. Does Keane look like he ‘lost it’?
I’m sure everyone has a slightly different definition of the term, but for me, Keane’s actions did not even approach ‘losing it’. What, pointing a finger and warning “We’ll see you out there”? Could it be that Keane used the term ‘lost it’ as a figure of speech? The same as when he recently said he “wanted to kill” the Ireland players and the media reported this in their headlines in such a ridiculous way it was almost as though it was his literal intention to plot the murder of his own squad. Honestly, there were fans saying Keane's gone too far now. Get real - it’s a bit pathetic.
It’s a shame the headlines don’t reflect the video footage and fuller description: -
“I'd lost it, but it wasn't zoning out; I wasn't forgetting about the game.”
~Roy Keane
~Roy Keane
I think that is closer to the reality: Keane was clearly in control and it’s plain to see. So what is it really about? Or is it simply, that some can't see beyond the headlines?
It's interesting how Keane "losing it" (his own words) in the tunnel with Viera is celebrated. Don't get me wrong there's an element of that which I really fires me up but there's a counter argument that it's (another) example of him being unable to control himself.
Great player but, as above, he overstepped the mark a couple of times on and off the pitch and clearly has anger management issues (something he has alluded to himself) That's partly why I would place Robson ahead of him but also because of Robbo's superior goal scoring stats.
It's pretty obvious to me that Keane's got a chip on his shoulder and that manifests itself now in his punditry, and his book selling exploits, as being deliberately controversial. He also knows it's his selling point so he exploits it which is fair enough but, for example, describing the tackle that shattered Shaw's leg as "brilliant" was just bang out of order. We get it Roy - you're a hard man and not a yes man "like the rest"
He remains a legend but attempts such as those of the OP to airbrush out the man's unpleasantness don't wash with me.
Your first paragraph completely ignores the fact that Keane was outstanding in that game and regularly led the fight against Arsenal in the most bitter rivalry in my time watching United.
He was an incredible leader and was a huge part in United comprehensively winning that battle with Arsenal.