I'm in awe of Gav's dedication here.
Clearing up some myths about Roy Keane
- Thread starter gav81
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If Keano in his prime was in our first eleven right now, there's not a hope the past three performances would have happened.
correct
Since it doesn't seem like we disagree much on the other points, I will only address the last part of your post. It is hard to make a bullet proof argument about our football in those last years under Fergie as one's exciting football is not everyone else's. I would however argue that there was a general consensus on this board among other that our football was hardly comparable to the best teams in Europe or even the likes of Dortmund or City in that period. The transfer of Kagawa I remember generated so much buzz because people were hoping he will change that to no avail of course. I would also cite our performances against the likes of City, Chelsea, Real and Liverpool or even the likes of Bilbao where all we did is sit back behind the ball losing the midfield and being pressed all over the pitch relying on the individual brilliance of Van Persie, Scholes or Rooney. I don't know about you but that's not what I'd call performances befitting one of the biggest clubs in the world. Against the rest of the league, our games were either ones where we got our noses up front and sat back behind the ball to defend a lead or ones where we did not defend well and ended up throwing the kitchen sink which albeit being exciting and enthralling, is still indicative that we were very flawed.
After Fergie, the only relatively modern manager we had is LvG and his tenure was overall a disappointment. That however doesn't mean that a more coaching/tactical oriented approach does not work. A quick glimpse at the best teams in the world would tell you that. We sadly don't exist in our own little island where we play by our own rules. We have to adapt to the modern order whether we like it or not because everybody else is. You seem to equate the failure of individuals with the failure of a system which I think is a very common attitude. People don't like someone's coaching, rightfully and then go on to write off everything he did from his performance, principles and ideas. My point is that just because LvG failed in the end, not everything he stood for or believe in is wrong.
I'm only having a chat
If Keano was in our dressing room there's not a hope the past three performances would have happened.
@Theonas
Thank you for your post. I think we have moved off the topic of Keane and more back to where our discussion started so have responded there: -
Origins of Our on Field Problems: Ferguson's Final Years vs Post Ferguson Years
Thank you for your post. I think we have moved off the topic of Keane and more back to where our discussion started so have responded there: -
Origins of Our on Field Problems: Ferguson's Final Years vs Post Ferguson Years
Just read an interview with Shane Long and he was talking about Keano. Suppose this thread is as good a place as any to share what he had to say.
No, do you know what, around the floor here with the lads he sits in and he's a great laugh, he's very sharp, quick with his banter you know? Funny, very funny.
He's probably the best player that's ever come out of Ireland, he's played at the biggest club at their best time, so he's obviously used to the best of the best and he wants to bring Ireland to that standard to compete, and he has brought an element of that with him. Tempo in training is a lot higher now and he wouldn't be afraid to stop it and pull out the people who aren't pulling their weight. He keeps everyone on their toes.
I think he just kind of... Has an angry head on him the whole time, but he's not actually grumpy, so people think he's grumpy.
No, do you know what, around the floor here with the lads he sits in and he's a great laugh, he's very sharp, quick with his banter you know? Funny, very funny.
He's probably the best player that's ever come out of Ireland, he's played at the biggest club at their best time, so he's obviously used to the best of the best and he wants to bring Ireland to that standard to compete, and he has brought an element of that with him. Tempo in training is a lot higher now and he wouldn't be afraid to stop it and pull out the people who aren't pulling their weight. He keeps everyone on their toes.
I think he just kind of... Has an angry head on him the whole time, but he's not actually grumpy, so people think he's grumpy.
You don't need to tell me about Cork. My wife is from there
scary stuff. Some nice ones there but don't get on their wrong side.@Keenst thanks for sharing, I'll add that to the collection. It's interesting to see the contrast between "he's a great laugh" during downtime and then "has an angry head on him the whole time" when it comes to training. It seems to me the latter is what gives him that focus, drive and will to win.
Sorry, I can't start a new thread as I'm still newbie. It's the first Roy Keane thread I could find.
My question was for the 'old heads' when we signed Keane, did you know he was going to be a captain that he ended up being?
Is there any players in the least (in our squad) resemble Keane right now? I know it's a different time, different era, but please be positive, give us something. Hererra?
How did you react to Keane giving that interview? Obviously, that squad turned out to be very successful but did you agree with with him then? And would you want a critical evaluation of our squad now, like he did then? To give our players a kick up the arse, essentially.
Very sorry for grammar. I'm very drunk.
My question was for the 'old heads' when we signed Keane, did you know he was going to be a captain that he ended up being?
Is there any players in the least (in our squad) resemble Keane right now? I know it's a different time, different era, but please be positive, give us something. Hererra?
How did you react to Keane giving that interview? Obviously, that squad turned out to be very successful but did you agree with with him then? And would you want a critical evaluation of our squad now, like he did then? To give our players a kick up the arse, essentially.
Very sorry for grammar. I'm very drunk.
There aren't too many actual box to box players around, few to none of Keane's style as the game has moved on. Maybe a blend of Busquets and Schweinsteiger.
I wonder what SAF thinks of Jose Mourinho publicly criticising his players ??
Supposedly Keane questioned SAF in that stand off infront of everyone, saying he was slipping. No coming back from that
Great great player Keano, on a lighter note nice to see him and Giggs having a bit of banter.
He always had good time for Giggsy.
He said he regretted that programme with ITV -- by all accounts, he's been on very good terms with Giggs, Scholes and Butt for a long time now. I'll have to find the reference for that though.
I love Keano and understand what an awesome player he was. Like Ryan, playing for a country that is small fry in the world of the big fishes that regularly get to the finals of the European Championship or World Cup or win those competitions, has meant Keano's greatness has been underestimated.
However, with all due respect I observe that you're living in the past. Roy Keane, Steve, Bruce and Mark Hughes will never become Manchester United manager unless they actually have some noteworthy success with clubs such as a prestigious trophy at home or in Europe, or consistently making the upper echelons of the league table and challenging for trophies and European places. For real.
The 'Sir Alex was given time and patience' and 'Sir Alex stayed around for over two decades' were only possible in a different era. Alex Ferguson as he was when he was recruited by United had brought success to clubs that lacked the resources of their bigger named rivals. He was given time at United because although Ron Atkinson had brought United a kind of swagger and a piece of silverware, a common pattern of no title success and inconsistency along with a lack of real drive to take United back to the top was also in evidence.
Keano and other United former players cannot seriously expect to come in after what has been Manchester United's most sustained period of success including European success and gigantic success in reinventing itself as a brand.
They don't have any real record of success as managers to be given the reins at United - they would be a step down just as David Moyes was a huge mistake. Manchester United looked and was in fact amateurish in giving way to Sir Alex's frankly ridiculous pushing of Moyes.
Only if a former United player is involved with renewed genuine success under Mourinho can they have any hope of becoming Manchester United manager. Ryan could do this if he is part of a new United team that takes the club back to its recent heights. Or if he goes off to manage and does something really big with a club that lacks the resources of the big club. However, look at Keano, Brucey and Hughes for a warning as to why that would be very difficult.
I was watching the 1996 FA Cup semi vs Chelsea on the box last night.
With the passing of time and fading memory, I had undervalued how much Keane contributed to the team in attack. He spent a lot of time in and around of the box. Often ahead of the play, getting into wide positions, beating players and getting in crosses.
Unfortunately it's easier to talk him up as a midfield hatchet man and airbrush his play making contribution.
With the passing of time and fading memory, I had undervalued how much Keane contributed to the team in attack. He spent a lot of time in and around of the box. Often ahead of the play, getting into wide positions, beating players and getting in crosses.
Unfortunately it's easier to talk him up as a midfield hatchet man and airbrush his play making contribution.
That's because when he left he didn't play like he did in 96 much like Scholes was a different player at the end.
Fascinating post. I totally agree re.. "Keane felt the Rock of Gibraltar legal battle was not in the interest of United", that's clear from lots of contributions he has made. All I want to know is, what did he say in the dressing room? What were the words that overstepped the mark?
What? Keane was one of the most artful and cultured players I have seen.
However, this thread is still relevant re the debate about Keano's status at United and in football, and whether he can seriously be a contender for the United job in the future.
Keano was definitely not too old school for United at the end of his career with us. He was not simply a box to box midfielder of the type that is becoming rarer in English football. His skill level and his vision were on par with any of the famous names of cultured European players.
At his peak he was up there with the top 5 midfielders in the world. He left United because his body could not have taken much more in a club such as United with its fixtures, and he also was reverting to the honest Roy type openly around Sir Alex.
There is definitely truth in the comments that he was old fashioned in the context of the young generation of less committed, more financially privileged from the game, more narcissistic football players. Then again, look at Rio for an example of the best of the the younger generation - a player of passion, United through and through although he was a Cockney, made some mistakes and was a bit too big on his social profile, but tough and incredibly skilled.
I'd love to see a Manchester United management/coaching team of Roy, Brucey, Hughesy, Ryan, Nicky Butt, Gary Nev, and Scholesy. But unless one of the first four named actually has real success at another club, it aint happening. What a pity.
Keano was definitely not too old school for United at the end of his career with us. He was not simply a box to box midfielder of the type that is becoming rarer in English football. His skill level and his vision were on par with any of the famous names of cultured European players.
At his peak he was up there with the top 5 midfielders in the world. He left United because his body could not have taken much more in a club such as United with its fixtures, and he also was reverting to the honest Roy type openly around Sir Alex.
There is definitely truth in the comments that he was old fashioned in the context of the young generation of less committed, more financially privileged from the game, more narcissistic football players. Then again, look at Rio for an example of the best of the the younger generation - a player of passion, United through and through although he was a Cockney, made some mistakes and was a bit too big on his social profile, but tough and incredibly skilled.
I'd love to see a Manchester United management/coaching team of Roy, Brucey, Hughesy, Ryan, Nicky Butt, Gary Nev, and Scholesy. But unless one of the first four named actually has real success at another club, it aint happening. What a pity.
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Best midfielder in Premier League history in terms of peak. Shame he doesn't get as much love as Scholes.