City and Financial Doping | Charged by PL with numerous FFP breaches | Hearing begins 16th September 2024

what annoys me, is City in public comply, but have been working behind the scenes to bypass the rules.

Its blatantly dishonest and every other club has the right to feel dirty.

I htink the ownership at City feels its above the rules, as they come from a place where they literally are above the rules. When your the dicataor of a country you do not have to follow the rules and amending Finacial statements is probably something you do on a whim

The entire league should rise up and ask Khaldoon why he gets to cheat association football in the UK.
 
Oranges038 said:
From what I've seen, the EFL would have no obligation to accept them. But the PL can't or have no provision to relegate them, they can only expel them. Probably because the PL is a separate body.

You'd have to assume that relegation would only be possible if they started the season with an insurmountable point deficit.
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Yup what's interesting is could expulsion means expelled forever. To the point that even winning the championship would see the pl not allow us back if they do choose.
 
Yakuza_devils said:
Am I the only one think that this will not go anywhere. City will get a slap in the wrist at the end of the day.

The FA/PL is putting up a show that they're actually doing something. There were too many complaints from the public that City is blatantly cheating. Hence, they need to create an impression that they're "doing something".

With City's lawyers and toothless FA/PL, guess who will be the winner?
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You're not alone. I'm a bit old and cynical so I think there will be a lot of discussion but money talks doesn't it?
 
Yakuza_devils said:
Am I the only one think that this will not go anywhere. City will get a slap in the wrist at the end of the day.

The FA/PL is putting up a show that they're actually doing something. There were too many complaints from the public that City is blatantly cheating. Hence, they need to create an impression that they're "doing something".

With City's lawyers and toothless FA/PL, guess who will be the winner?
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if they just wanted to show they are doing something, they could bring a few charges and let them off with a fine and dock a few points or something.. okay lads you've been a bit naughty but don't do it again

this amount of charges makes it difficult to believe there is any other intent than to take City down
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
It's not illegal at all. Sports league are private entities and to compete in them, clubs have to abide by their rules. What you're saying simply doesn't apply.

In other sports, for instance, the NFL, there is a salary cap. No team is allowed to just spend their money as much as they want. It's not illegal, it's part of the rules that clubs must follow to gain the benefits of competing in the league.

There is zero chance City can sue and have the PL repay them. That take is simply not understanding how entities like sports leagues operate.
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Football has its rules... But they mustn't violate the law. Example: the Bosman sentence. For decades, football has predicted the cost even for players with expired contracts. But this was not legal. And the court has restored the law.
And FPF clearly violates the most basic laws of commercial law.
 
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Yakuza_devils said:
Am I the only one think that this will not go anywhere. City will get a slap in the wrist at the end of the day.

The FA/PL is putting up a show that they're actually doing something. There were too many complaints from the public that City is blatantly cheating. Hence, they need to create an impression that they're "doing something".

With City's lawyers and toothless FA/PL, guess who will be the winner?
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These sort of posts got really boring 2 days ago.

Reeks of people not really following the story at all.
 
Il_Cecchino said:
Football has its rules... But they mustn't violate the law. Example: the Bosman sentence. For decades, football has predicted the cost even for players with expired contracts. But this was not legal. And the court has restored the law.
And FPF clearly violates the most basic laws of commercial law.
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This has nothing to do with FFP though?

What commercial laws are being violated here by the PL rules?
 
Tarrou said:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...cial-breaches-could-take-four-years-tfpb7wnhf

paywalled but Times saying case could take four years
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It won't. There is clearly some serious pressure being applied on the EPL by outside influences - the only question at this point is who these influences are. Take your pick from:

*Threats from government (the white paper) frightened of looking like they have not lived up to their mandate regarding popular opinion from fans of each club that didn't break the rules
*Threats from super league breakaway members
*Threats from potential or even current investors in clubs to take them on in an even bigger lawsuit
*Threats from opposition leagues (La Liga etc) regarding fair play - that should never be a factor, nonetheless you don't want to make your partners in crime in UEFA and across any more belligerent than they need to be.
 
cyberman said:
If you were City would you not want it decided sooner than that?
They’re in limbo now
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Also with their irrefutable evidence, you'd have thought they could just submit that and be done with it, clear their name and continue. Yet, they will delay it as long as they can and drag it out as long as they can. Wouldn't have thought a party with nothing to hide would want that...
 
adexkola said:
This has nothing to do with FFP though?

What commercial laws are being violated here by the PL rules?
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You can't stop a property from spending its money on its company. This is FFP. And is not legal.
 
GazTheLegend said:
There's potential lawsuits from the OTHER side should city by found guilty here. Loss of earnings etc etc.
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That wont happen. The cost of litigation will far offset the revenue lost from placing in the league. A lawsuit pertaining to relegation wont go anywhere for the same reason. We are talking a legal battle that will span years, and the legal fees will very likely not be recovered. You would also need to be able to prove in court that the FFP trickery directly impacted a league placement, which will be incredibly hard to begin with, even if Man C is found guiltty by a tribunal. Its one thing to be able to say "well yeah it did, its obvious". Its different entirely to make the argument citing the laws of the land. A aggrieved party will have to convince the court that the accused party have, on the balance of probabilities, caused financial damage. This applies to loss of earings in all competitions.

That Man City cant appeal a verdict that quite a few posters say is incorrect, they can appeal it, to FA, who in turn will have to set up a new independent tribunal to reivew the first process. At that point, this process will be drawn out for a long time.

It if genuinely better for everyone if they reach a settlement that carries a transfer ban, point deduction, and a big fine. A settlement that Manchester City will actually accept to be able to put this behind everyone, instead of spending years and a small fortune fighting for a uncertain outcome.

This whole fallout is way too complicated to accurately describe in a short post, but the summary is that a compensation for loss of earning litigation is extremely unlikely to take place due to the complexity, duration and lack of precedent.
 
Il_Cecchino said:
You can't stop a property from spending its money on its company. This is FFP. And is not legal.
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They’re not stopping City. They’re just saying you suffer consequences if you do.
That’s how sport works. If you get that deep then transfer windows aren’t legal. Bad tackle should see you in court for GBH etc.
 
Il_Cecchino said:
You can't stop a property from spending its money on its company. This is FFP. And is not legal.
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They are free to spend as much money as they want, except if they want to participate in a league then they need to abide by the rules of the league. If they don't, the league has every right to expel them and they can continue to spend all their money upon expulsion.
 
Tarrou said:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...cial-breaches-could-take-four-years-tfpb7wnhf

paywalled but Times saying case could take four years
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GazTheLegend said:
It won't. There is clearly some serious pressure being applied on the EPL by outside influences - the only question at this point is who these influences are. Take your pick from:

*Threats from government (the white paper) frightened of looking like they have not lived up to their mandate regarding popular opinion from fans of each club that didn't break the rules
*Threats from super league breakaway members
*Threats from potential or even current investors in clubs to take them on in an even bigger lawsuit
*Threats from opposition leagues (La Liga etc) regarding fair play - that should never be a factor, nonetheless you don't want to make your partners in crime in UEFA and across any more belligerent than they need to be.
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The Times are quoting Nick De Marco KC (he's one of the most eminent Sports Law barristers in the UK). He gave a four year estimate yesterday on Twitter:

 
The more I think about this the angrier I become.
So many people are writing it off as a nothing story, but the truth is cheated many clubs, players, management, and fans out of historical moments. No, they've stolen them.

Put the money the clubs lost to one side. It's about the fan experience and making memories. All stolen. It's a disgrace and they should be punished with relegation to the bottom of the football league. Every trophy they've won since 2008 should be wiped from the records.

What's worse is the clubs defeanding what they did. They've cheated and they think they can buy their way out.
If they do then the integrity of the Premier League is finished.
 
Bestie07 said:
They are free to spend as much money as they want, except if they want to participate in a league then they need to abide by the rules of the league. If they don't, the league has every right to expel them and they can continue to spend all their money upon expulsion.
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Even pre-Bosman football had its rules. And the clubs had signed up for these rules. But they weren't legal. And in fact the court canceled them. It is the same as the FPF: it is clearly illegal and if City (or another club) goes to court it will be canceled. Sport can write its rules, but these rules must remain within the law.
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Sorry but I can't answer anymore. I have reached the maximum number of 3 messages per day. (Hope to be promoted soon!).
 
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Il_Cecchino said:
The FPF has a big problem: it is illegal. You can't forbid a property from spending its money on its company. The FPF serves to crystallize the positions of strength and prevent small teams from becoming big. If City is sanctioned and appeals to the court, FPF will be canceled (and probably PL will have to repay City with hundreds of millions).
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This is rubbish, a sports league can apply its own rules. Legally you can't stop someone moving employers a dozen times a year, but in the PL you can't play for more than 2 clubs in a year. Legally you can't stop someone employing 100 players, but you can't register that many. Legally you can't stop anyone moving employers, but the PL can require that one club has to sign the registration of a player to another and that can be for a fee.
 
I wonder what Pep is thinking. If he stays and they're acquitted he comes out of this OK but if he stays and they're found guilty it's not hyperbole to say this would tarnish his entire career. If he considers there's a decent chance of any of the charges being upheld does he think about jumping ship?
 
cyberman said:
If you were City would you not want it decided sooner than that?
They’re in limbo now
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No, they know they're guilty but in four years time much of the bluster and noise around this will have died down. The PL will be able to offer them an easy way out through a fine (bribe) and it'll all be forgotten.
 
So the premier league will just keep having a team compete for the title (and potentially win it) for the next 4 years that is under investigation. Really makes the league hollow as feck
 
Maybe the Premier League should suspend City until the case is concluded. Unlikely and probably not possible but would send a very strong message that it's in everyone's best interests to resolve it as soon as possible.

The problem with it taking years is that by the time they've dealt with the period in question, they may then have to start a new investigation for the years after until the verdict.
 
Il_Cecchino said:
Even pre-Bosman football had its rules. And the clubs had signed up for these rules. But they weren't legal. And in fact the court canceled them. It is the same as the FPF: it is clearly illegal and if City (or another club) goes to court it will be canceled. Sport can write its rules, but these rules must remain within the law.
.....
Sorry but I can't answer anymore. I have reached the maximum number of 3 messages per day. (Hope to be promoted soon!).
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Absolute pish.
 
Il_Cecchino said:
Even pre-Bosman football had its rules. And the clubs had signed up for these rules. But they weren't legal. And in fact the court canceled them. It is the same as the FPF: it is clearly illegal and if City (or another club) goes to court it will be canceled. Sport can write its rules, but these rules must remain within the law.
.....
Sorry but I can't answer anymore. I have reached the maximum number of 3 messages per day. (Hope to be promoted soon!).
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someone should let city know this
 
slyadams said:
I wonder what Pep is thinking. If he stays and they're acquitted he comes out of this OK but if he stays and they're found guilty it's not hyperbole to say this would tarnish his entire career. If he considers there's a decent chance of any of the charges being upheld does he think about jumping ship?
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He is thinking about going to PSG before it falls on them too. :)
 
slyadams said:
This is rubbish, a sports league can apply its own rules. Legally you can't stop someone moving employers a dozen times a year, but in the PL you can't play for more than 2 clubs in a year. Legally you can't stop someone employing 100 players, but you can't register that many. Legally you can't stop anyone moving employers, but the PL can require that one club has to sign the registration of a player to another and that can be for a fee.
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Taking that argument to an even more bizarre level, players can sue the PL for not allowing them to score goals with their hands. Or being yellow carded for simply taking their shirt off, within decency. Or choosing not to wear shin pads at all (freedom/rights/etc). All of these things are rules of an organisation but can be challenged (easily probably) in a court of law. Where do you stop?
 
Lay said:
So the premier league will just keep having a team compete for the title (and potentially win it) for the next 4 years that is under investigation. Really makes the league hollow as feck
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On the other side, do they just expel City and wait for court proceedings to take place? What happens if City gets aquitted for even some of those charges? What do you want the league to do outside of take action that will cost the club well over £5bn in lost revenue and loss of player sale/development and destruction of the clubs brand value assuming a 4 year estimated court proceedings estimate.

This is a complex issue without a satisfying immediate resolution for anyone
 
Von Mistelroum said:
No, they know they're guilty but in four years time much of the bluster and noise around this will have died down. The PL will be able to offer them an easy way out through a fine (bribe) and it'll all be forgotten.
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Why would this disappear in four years time? Are City going to quietly move towards irrelevance in that time? This isn’t big news because it’s a surprise, it’s big news because people have expected it and it’s been proven true. People want a a punishment and will be no less hungry for that punishment in four years, especially if they continue their ways.
 
Il_Cecchino said:
The FPF has a big problem: it is illegal. You can't forbid a property from spending its money on its company. The FPF serves to crystallize the positions of strength and prevent small teams from becoming big. If City is sanctioned and appeals to the court, FPF will be canceled (and probably PL will have to repay City with hundreds of millions).
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Libertarian bollocks.
 
Zippycup said:
The more I think about this the angrier I become.
So many people are writing it off as a nothing story, but the truth is cheated many clubs, players, management, and fans out of historical moments. No, they've stolen them.

Put the money the clubs lost to one side. It's about the fan experience and making memories. All stolen. It's a disgrace and they should be punished with relegation to the bottom of the football league. Every trophy they've won since 2008 should be wiped from the records.

What's worse is the clubs defeanding what they did. They've cheated and they think they can buy their way out.
If they do then the integrity of the Premier League is finished.
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Sums up exactly how I feel too.

I'd actually go further and kick them out of the football league completely. Why should any football league club have to give up their space to accommodate these corrupt Cnuts!
 
Il_Cecchino said:
The FPF has a big problem: it is illegal. You can't forbid a property from spending its money on its company. The FPF serves to crystallize the positions of strength and prevent small teams from becoming big. If City is sanctioned and appeals to the court, FPF will be canceled (and probably PL will have to repay City with hundreds of millions).
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The parent company is not forbidden per se to spend its own money at all in any way shape or form as long as they follow local laws. They are however prohibited to do so if they want to participate in the competition.

Participation in the competition, comes with a set framework that all clubs participating are obligated to agree to to enter the competition, in this case the Premier League.

Want to spend frivilous amounts of money? Go ahed. You can however then not participate in the competition. UEFA is the governing body, all registered clubs in UEFA needs to act according to its laws. All clubs accept UEFAs authority by being part of the league system.

The local leagues are free to enact their own, harsher version of FFP, for example in the case of La Liga.

The FFP is there to ensure that clubs dont go under from being victims of frivilous owners who spend huge amounts of money only to leave the clubs high and dry, which has been the case with many clubs, for example Malaga who ended up being forced to release their entire first team squad due to a horrible foreign owner that spent money like a drunk sailor.

It is there not to prevent small teams from becoming big, but to prevent big and small teams from overreaching, unable to handle their financial obligations. The system isnt perfect, but its better than sacrificing a few clubs in the process to let everyone else spend freely. What do you imagine happens if a oil club gets told there is a no-limit of spend? Think £200m for a player is a lot? Try £400m for Mbappe on a 10 year contract. Player values for the elite clubs will reach a level of inflation that WILL cause clubs to go bankrupt the moment a investor needs to pull out,or we hit a new recession that impacts clubs finances like it did with Covid.

The courts cant choose to cancel FFP without having a legal framework to reference. It would require legislation from the government to be passed into law to do that.

Currently, there is nothing that stops a governing body of a sports assosication to enact its own rules that still comply with regular employment laws in relation to employees of a sport club under contract, which are slightly differenct from say someone who works as a taxi driver, or as a cashier re: employment protection etc.
 
Why would this disappear in four years time? Are City going to quietly move towards irrelevance in that time? This isn’t big news because it’s a surprise, it’s big news because people have expected it and it’s been proven true. People want a a punishment and will be no less hungry for that punishment in four years, especially if they continue their ways.
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“it’s been proven true” , “people want a punishment” , mmmhhh, I am used to that….. a legally passable way to do that would be to enforce the fit-and-proper gate against the AbuDhabis and make them sell their asset.
 
Zehner said:
If they broke the rules, they should be punished. But to be honest, I find it very hard to judge them for this since FFP is a farce and was only put in place to ensure that those who are at the top remain at the top. It's a shitty rule made by shitty people sold as something great and romantic to the fans. Good for top clubs, bad for small clubs. feck FFP.
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This isn't true, and you only have to look at the history of the policy and the mechanics by which it was introduced to see that. An inquest into domestic football governance was undertaken at the urging of football supporters, who had grown concerned about financial management within football after a couple of high profile cases highlighted issues. The report came back having vindicated these concerns, with significant financial risk-taking being noted and many clubs effectively gambling with their future as a result of the lack of financial regulation.

The PL policy was introduced via a vote, in which a majority of two thirds were needed to go ahead with implementation.

Zehner said:
I blame it on the conflict of interests a fan of a top club has when criticizing FFP.

I don't believe you would see it this way if you were a fan of a smaller club.
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This evidently isn't true :) . Some of your concerns with FFP are valid, it does play a part in solidifying the status quo, there's a reason why the traditionally big clubs were especially in favour. Equally though (and with all due respect), your lack of knowledge regarding the landscape that led to the policy, underpins your false belief FFP is this evil policy concocted solely to protect big clubs. There are better solutions to the problem of upwards mobility in football, than to make it a financial free for all.
 
Lay said:
So the premier league will just keep having a team compete for the title (and potentially win it) for the next 4 years that is under investigation. Really makes the league hollow as feck
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city’s tactics have always been to delay and object to any reasonable disclosure of information and documents. The process is an independent arbitration. I am not certain of the how the Court and private arbitration matters operate together in the UK but in Canada (also common law apart from the French bastards in quebec) allow parties to seek some direction from the Courts in private arbitration matters if there are procedural disputes re: choice of arbitrator, timelines, production issues, right to appeal etc. I would think that the city lawyers will seek to delay by using the Court to argue that the committee is biased and should be removed. Really not sure what else they could argue since the league has already used the Court to push for more documentary disclosure. It’s going to be a mess and the barristers and solicitors involved in this matter are going to be making filthy amounts of legal fees.

Anyone know if the 4 years predicted included city’s likely appeal?
 
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