The same fans that welcomed all this shit and were cocky for years, because of the successes they had due to their cheating? The same ones who spent their free time to defend the sportswashing project their teams has become? They deserve all this.
City and Financial Doping | Charged by PL with numerous FFP breaches | Hearing begins 16th September 2024
- Thread starter VanGaalEra
- Start date
We get it, you’re a Juventus fan.
This evidently isn't true. Some of your concerns with FFP are valid, it does play a part in solidifying the status quo, there's a reason why the traditionally big clubs were especially in favour. Equally though (and with all due respect), your lack of knowledge regarding the landscape that led to the policy, underpins your false belief FFP is this evil policy concocted solely to protect big clubs. There are better solutions to the problem of upwards mobility in football, than to make it a financial free for all.
Could you elaborate on the bolded part?
And unfortunate enough to have to check the fitness of a few accounting sheets as well.
The charges and the investigation are due to the fact that City did not supply the FA with the appropriate paperwork at the right time. If City supplied all the details openly and honestly and worked with the investigation it could be over in two or three months. Instead City will use high powered lawyers to stall, procrastinate and slow the process. That is their right.
But to set an example the FA can dock them 20 points until the investigation is complete for this season and subsequent seasons in order to encourage them to work with the process and not against it and deliver all the relevant information in a prompt manner.
Too much pandering to money and lawyers.
They deserved several relegations yes but no permanent expulsion. If Qatar come in and start using our club for something nefarious we would be powerless to stop it and won't deserve expulsion.
Why are people looking at this as FFP? It’s flat out fraud. These are criminal acts, not ‘whoopsie we spent too much money’.
Reporting and sentiment on this is divorced from reality.
Reporting and sentiment on this is divorced from reality.
Surely, there is a protocol during the investigation process that the governing body can instill some punitive measures? Such as temporary halt on transfers?
To, like you say, encourage the speed.
This isn’t an invalid argument, but the problem is they didn’t make that argument, they committed fraud rather than make the effort.
People seem to keep focusing on FFP. Rory Jennings, he Chelsea YouTuber was talking about how disgusting it was that teams in the PL were using their “filthy money” (and he wasn’t talking about how the money was earned … just that it was lots of money … and that money is filthy..,) to suck up all the talent from teams around Europe and it was evil.
This conflating of different things is the only thing I find annoying about this situation. Money isnt inherently bad; that’s stupid, and Marxist. The PL should in NO way feel bad for having more success and drawing more talent to it every year. That’s also dumb.
Madrid people in no way “felt bad” about the government manipulating property sales to sell/buyback land to Madrid for huge profits for tons of money .. and then took everyone’s best players.
I also get annoyed with the “living within their means” thing. We aren’t talking about a welfare house for war orphans. This is one of the biggest sports leagues in the world. Nobody asks Ferrari formula 1 teams if they are “living within their means”. The idea of treating football teams, like they are a cross between steady profit steel mills and community centers is just weird.
Real investment of real money should be encouraged. If you don’t want s nation-state or royal family to buy teams (which I would agree with), then don’t let them. It isn’t like people didn’t know.
The issue that should sink City here is that they have real partners and investors, including the league itself, that have s legal right to accurate information in making their own decisions, and City robbed them of that information through what appears to be intentional fraud. FFP isn’t even a league rule, it’s a multi league agreement. FRAUD is the law. The breaking of the actual law.
Thank you. I was beginning to think I was the only one that saw it. This is MUCH more serious than a rule break.
Amen. So weird people not understanding small teams trying to be big is why several clubs have folded.
Only thing here is that the Bosman rule fell under contract law which is a thing to do with employee and employer relationships, FFP doesnt quite concern that with the EU freedom laws.
As per wiki
I don't really see how City frauding their way through sports since they were founded by oil has anything to do with the EU getting involved this time around.
This has been mentioned very little in terms of punishment if found guilty, but I totally agree. I think they should be put in league two and stripped of trophies. It’s unprecedented cheating/accounting fraud.
I hear media and pundits saying relegation to the championship, but wouldn’t they just be back up in one season anyway?
Theyll probably lawyer out of it though.
Could always join the SPL.
They let Rangers back in.
They cannot just be relegated to the football league. From my understanding, the only way relegation is possible is if they are given a huge points deduction that makes it impossible to stay up. Let's say -75 points, then they most they could get was 39 points, but only if they won every single game and even that might not keep them up.
The PL and the Commission only have the power to expel them from the PL. At which point they would have to apply to the football league or another league for membership. They could decide to accept them, but also decided where they'd start off, so it could be the Championship or as low as the Northern Premier League or even lower - 9th, 10th, 11th tier. But that will never happen.
I mean Juventus just got a 15 point reduction for one incident, their first i believe? This is city's 3rd time being punished for FFP and they have a hundred charges. Say 20 points for it being a repeat offence, thats -2000 points. Maybe they'd have to work it off over multiple seasons, so next year they start at -1900 ponts (in the champoinship obviously)
I reckon that'd be fair
And yet clubs being on brink of bankruptcy were a regular thing before the FFP times and they didn't even need a massive pandemic excuse for it. Clubs becoming insolvent after their sugar daddies got bored were also a massive issue. Executives running their clubs into the ground absolutely was a legitimate problem before that.
Day by day there's more of a feeling City won't get off lightly. Sure I heard someone mention a former prominent person at City had also suggested this wasn't like the UEFA case and the consequences will be far more severe.
I mean Juventus just got a 15 point reduction for one incident, their first i believe? This is city's 3rd time being punished for FFP and they have a hundred charges. Say 20 points for it being a repeat offence, thats -2000 points. Maybe they'd have to work it off over multiple seasons, so next year they start at -1900 ponts (in the champoinship obviously)
I reckon that'd be fair
Opening a can of worms there.
Everybody who's not a Juve fan in Italy is just out to get them. They've never done anything wrong and this latest attack is just another attempt to bring down the biggest club in Italy because they're all jealous.
Absolutely. I doubt if he will be there next year.
Cheers. I hope they get punished properly and don’t get away with it this time.
Good point. The fact they decided not to do this ought to worry City.
You mean not worry City? if the case was slam dunk then you would think the PL will not be happy to wait however long it takes to get them punished.
With City not cooperating with them since 2018, I think this is why they are letting it run it's course. without seeing all of City's cards they don't really know what City has been cooking up since then. Plus this could just be a "hey look at us, we are doing more than UEFA did" and give them a comfortable points deduction in a season they will not win the league and a substantial fine.
If they get a points deduction. Would it happen next season? Juventus happened this season though didn’t it? I bet it’s just a fine they get, that will do nothing to them. Needs to be a serious punishment to stop it happening.
It’s not illegal. They’re a set of rules that the sport has implemented as a condition of playing in their competitions.
United have finished second to City as often as Liverpool have.
Interesting. So you don’t considering cheating to be cheating. Good for you I guess.
It is, but some weaker version of it might be true.
I am not at all a lawyer so I have no idea, but as a general statement "the FA/UEFA/FIFA can make its own rules" is for the most part true but not always. For instance, there's this thing about how City can't appeal to CAS if they get convicted. It's true that the rules say that, and that City have agreed to those rules, but it's not a given that those rules are enforceable because there are a lot of rules and regulations about contracts. In general people have the freedom of contract is pretty strong, so the FA and clubs have a lot of room to decide things between them, but there are limitations.
Specifically regarding FFP there are antitrust and competition stuff to take into consideration, I don't think it's 100 % given that it would stand up if challenged.
Here's a publication that argues that it is illegal, as an example. https://scholarlycommons.law.emory.edu/eilr/vol29/iss4/4/
I haven't read it, and wouldn't have understood it if I had, and I don't mean is at an argument that it is illegal. Just that it's not prima facie ridiculous that it could be.
There are already many replies to your posts but I'll still summarize here. When you reply, you can quote multiple people on the same reply to reply to more than one person at a time
1. What you quoted isn't a law. You'd have to quote a specific law that you think is being broken. What you said there isn't a law, it's just a vague concept. Sports leagues already do exactly that. The NFL and NBA have salary caps that explicitly prevent "a property from its money on its company." And there are plenty of other examples of limiting that principle. For instance, tobacco advertising is banned/severely limited. That's preventing a company from spending its money. So you'd have to find very specific laws that you think are being violated.
2. Bosman is not a valid comparison because that dealt with contract law with specific provisions that were challenged. There is not a comparable example here.
3. FFP is not even relevant to the most strict violations which are, essentially fraud. Fraud is not legal. As some have mentioned, City might face legal challenges from other clubs that want to sue them.
Essentially, as @Tom Cato pointed out, the government would need to pass very specific laws (which do not currently exist to my knowledge but feel free to list them) for a court to cancel FFP. And even if that happened, it wouldn't make the fraud problem go away and just get City out of trouble here.
So do I.
But it probably won't be anywhere near as severe as what people would like to see.
gregory gauss competitive exclusion
The Jamaican track team had a HUGE issue with doping
I am going to make the below argument because City’s lawyers will want to make this a debate about the fairness and legitimacy of FFP. It’s a trap they want to draw commission members and public alike into. That can’t be allowed to happen.
Teams folded for many financial reasons related to debt and over borrowing well before this age of massively rich investors.
The problem with some teams is the owners who claimed to be big spenders … didn’t have the actual ability to do so. Even having a net worth doesn’t guarantee having the cash on hand necessary for major sorts ownership. OR, as was heavily the case in La Liga, you have the messiness of essentially public ownership and elected Presidents and directors. They get desperate for re election or overzealous lying about money that isn’t theirs and … bam, problems.
If they were worried about viability, they could simply require owners to certify their means of spending. That is not difficult to do. You could even require teams to put all the liquid cash of their ‘spend’ for each year in an escrow account by a certain date.
None of these issues necessitated making rules that income had to come from certain sources; only that it be “provable” you had the money you said you were spending.
But that is what we were told FFP was for: to make sure teams actually had the money to spend. But that isn’t what it does; it makes sure teams are only spending income related to things historic teams with massive fanbases would get income from.
Chelsea could have spent more money off the books; from what I understand if we had been willing to pay the massive under the table fees we could have had Haaland.
Two teams: one got creative with things like their “loan army” … which tons of players, teams and even countries benefitted from by the way (Bayern, you’re welcome for Musiala)… to close the gap on what they wanted to spend versus the money they brought in from “traditional” means.
The other committed legal accounting fraud. Criminal charges, to completely ignore the spending border.
I do not agree with FFP hindering outside investment to the degree it does, but that is an entirely separate issue from this particular case. FFP was only their “motive”.
It would be like two husbands hating their current wives: one gets a divorce, and one kills her. Neither wanted to be trapped in a marriage. The crime is the whole murder part. The crime is the Fraud.
Whatever the other penalties, the ownership group should face expulsion and forced sale just like Chelsea. OPEC+ is doing a LOT more to fund Russia in Ukraine than Roman ever did by originally making his money in Russia. And they broke sovereign laws if they committed the fraud.
I don't mean to take this thread wildly off topic but anyone who thinks Bolt wasn't doping is pretty naive. This is list of the mens all time records with the people caught doping crossed out
If you think the absolute elite, best of the beat, most talented people in the world who were doping couldn't manage 9.8 seconds, and there's a guy who's clean managing below 9.6, you're hopelessly naive
Juventus exploited a grey area that had no rules about it.
Serie A bending rules which limit the punishment to a fine (and for the other teams involved they asked for a fine) to make it a points deduction.
Without explaining how they came to pick the -15points when prosecutor asked for -9.
I dunno what it is but the more likely explanation is ESL since Juventus is shit since 2-3years
I don't mean to take this thread wildly off topic but anyone who thinks Bolt wasn't doping is pretty naive. This is list of the mens all time records with the people caught doping crossed out
If you think the absolute elite, best of the beat, most talented people in the world who were doping couldn't manage 9.8 seconds, and there's a guy who's clean managing below 9.6, you're hopelessly naive
It's widely assumed but not proven that he used PEDs, steroids etc. But never proven as he never failed a drugs test.
It's been widely assumed that City have been using some creative accounting and inflating sponsorships to get around FFP. But again it's not been proven yet.
Yeah I mean there were no rules about using influence and contacts to get preferential referees appointed.
Also there were no rules about over stating the market value of players to try and cover the losses accumulated by overpaying for one of the biggest players in the world.
Same way as police shadowing other teams calls that came to light way too late to g3t other teams punished as well. As procurator Palazzi said. I wanna punish them but sadly it's too late! Opsie free scudetto and no punishment.
Also can you remember any other team selling youths players to stay ALIVE.
The fecking point is it's not illegal but somehow only one team getting punished. Bend and twist however you like it but you can't change facts.
Like I said to another Juve conspiracy theorist.
Maybe if they weren't obviously up to dodgy business all the time they wouldn't be such an easy target.
Mate, as already posted before, the ordinary courts have always acquitted all parties involved.
I understand it’s hard to dispel myths and prejudices, yet ultimately that’s what sticks.
Aye, Acquitted but mostly because the statute of limitations had passed and no further charges could be brought against them or the rest.
And of course Moggi was totally innocent and had his life time ban lifted.
Fortunately for you as a citizen, ordinary law ultimately gives any chance to speak to both prosecutors and defendants. If you think you need to dig forever until you find something (because you are sure there is something even before finding it), you are just an ultra, like the latest Neapolitan prosecutor Ciro Santoriello, a self-declared Juventus hater albeit a brilliant prosecutor, yet as such unsuited to investigate Juventus… we should agree on this if we are both living in Europe, right?