City and Financial Doping | Charged by PL with numerous FFP breaches | Hearing begins 16th September 2024

heinze58 said:
If they do get found guilty, that ticker banner had better make a return.
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What would it be up to 48?

Sadly even if they all their league titles stripped because of their unprecedented cheating. Its highly unlikely they'll lose their cup wins as well.
 
Has any outlet spoken of the post-2019 stuff and what is going to happen with that? I have never understood why City are being investigated up to what feels like an arbitrary end date when they continued obfuscating beyond that date. They are also still reaping the benefits of the cheating up to 2019.
 
Pexbo said:
IMO they should be stripped of the titles but they shouldn’t be awarded to the second placed teams because it’s more complicated than that. The entire season is corrupted by City playing 38 matches and the butterfly effect those matches have.


I doubt this happened but in simple terms what if City beat the 3rd place team twice and lost twice to the 2nd place team and that 6 points decided 2nd position?

That’s the simplest example I can give but that knock on effect creates momentum, pressures and narratives.

In short the entire EPL has been tainted this last 15 years and therein lies the problem for the EPL. They’re going to want to mitigate the reality of the situation to preserve their product and there will be pressure from Sky and the like to do just that - they’ve paid billions for this product.

You’ve then got the juxtaposition the clubs are in, they want City to be punished and they will want their compensation but what none of the EPL CEOs will want going forward is to bite their nose of to spite their face and damage the integrity of the league going forward. Becoming another Serie A is not an option because so many of the clubs would go under considering their overheads now.
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What if you simply remade the league tables with all City games null and void? Would that compensate for The Butterfly Effect?
 
SilentWitness said:
The whole league has been shafted. I don't agree with handing out titles to who came 2nd because the whole landscape of the league would change if City didn't financially dope.

EDIT: Agree with @Pexbo
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I wasn’t advocating giving out titles for those who came 2nd. More that Arsenal would essentially get that by virtue of just being the second best team when City finally got what’s coming to them.

Imagine if one team came second to them every single season and then finally fell off a bit. Only for some other team who were crap that whole time to just happen to have a good season the one time City get a deduction.
 
I'd happily take Gerrard getting a medal if it meant we get 2012 back and we dont have to listen to fecking Martin Tyler again.

Stoke, Watford and Sunderland have all lost cup finals to City in that period. That's some fecked up daylight robbery.
 
Garnacho's Shoelaces said:
Yes, I think their EPL titles will be voided and they'll be expelled from the league for at least 5 seasons.
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I can't see that happening. If it happens, great, but it will set a really strange precedent where it will feel a little random and arbitrary.
 
There is no outcome that will do justice. Fined, relegated. Doesn't matter. If you could go back in time and tell them they can cheat , win numerous titles but then get relegated and fined they will do it every time.its been worth it no matter what to them.
The fans won't give a sht. In a couple of years it will be forgotten. If they get relegated they will go straight up and win the Prem the next season.
The only real punishment is a black mark on thier name.
 
SuperiorXI said:
Where do you sit with this?

In terms of the "heritage" fans, how could they conclude it has been a great ride when it sits upon a bed of lies, corruption and cheating? You might say football is corrupt and dirty but no other club has this level of charges against it currently.

Are there no fans which would be furious with the owners? City had a storied history before UAE, they had previously won trophies and the league albeit many years ago, the club has existed over 100 years. Are there no fans that would be (or are) furious with how this has unraveled? I find it hard to believe that they will shrug their shoulders and move on.
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Do you live in Manchester?
 
They need to be relegated to league one at least, relegating to the championship is meaningless as they will be back within 1 season. Fine needs to be above 500m or closer to a billion, if Mclaren a formula 1 team could get fined for 100m in 2007 for spying, City should get fined 1 billion for the systematic cheating for over a decade.

City cheating wasn't limited to the EPL either, they bent the rules and cheated when it came to youth recruitment too, left clubs like United and Liverpool in the North fighting for scraps.They need to be stripped of all titles, 2nd place gets the titles because this has continued for over a decade, the EPL won't want to have such a massive black hole on the winners list, the length/duration of cheating is unprecedented in sports.
 
FujiVice said:
That would look incredibly embarrassing for the PR league that is the English Premier League. Best League In The World (c)
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Couldn't care less, they need the biggest book you can find thrown straight at them. Just do the right thing and take the titles away and declare no winner for those seasons. Like others have said it will be hard not to walk away with such cheating condoned, however it won't affect things for league as many other teams feel sorry for City.
 
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SuperiorXI said:
I grew up in Wythenshawe, only very recently moved away. I know a handful of blues and their responses are pretty much defiance/denial.
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Feels like a lot of people these days have something that they worship and can do no wrong in their eyes. See Trump for parallels. He's been convicted of stuff and hardly any of his supporters have turned against him. They just entrench themselves deeper. Same thing would happen here with City fans imo because it's easier than admitting you've been fooled/lied to for years.
 
I just can't shake this feeling even if they are found guilty of some charges the media will continue waxing lyrical. Completely ignoring the fact they have been punished (probably lightly) for financial fraud.
 
Solius said:
Feels like a lot of people these days have something that they worship and can do no wrong in their eyes. See Trump for parallels. He's been convicted of stuff and hardly any of his supporters have turned against him. They just entrench themselves deeper. Same thing would happen here with City fans imo because it's easier than admitting you've been fooled/lied to for years.
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The whole "Red Cartel" thing sounds ominously familiar to the "Radical Left" shite
 
Solius said:
If found guilty and it's basically proven that they only got where they are by financially doping themselves up to the eyeballs, and they give City a massive points deduction for this season, here is a very shallow look at who will have been shafted of things and who will benefit:

11/12 - United
13/14 - Liverpool
17/18 - United (2nd time)
18/19 - Liverpool (2nd time)
20/21 - United (3rd time)
21/22 - Liverpool (3rd time)
22/23 - Arsenal
23/24 - Arsenal (2nd time)
24/25 - Likely Arsenal gifted a PL if points deduction happens for this season.

Why should solely Arsenal benefit? Yes they happen to be the second best at this current moment but Utd and Liverpool would be just as deserving. Just because the investigation/trial has been dragged this long Utd and Liverpool get nothing for their multiple year efforts against a doped up club?

You either do all or none imo. Otherwise there's no integrity.
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Everybody is starting on equal footing this season, knowing that City's punishment (if it happens) will be handed out prior to the end of the year. Arsenal has the best chance of benefiting but its not like other clubs are being denied that opportunity. That makes this season very different from past seasons.

As far as remedying the past goes, I think awarding titles to second place teams will be very empty after the fact (even as Arsenal would benefit). Not only does awarding a title 10 years later seem weird but second place in some of these seasons might have gone to a different team if everybody had known that City would be ineligible for the title.
 
Powderfinger said:
Everybody is starting on equal footing this season, knowing that City's punishment (if it happens) will be handed out prior to the end of the year. Arsenal has the best chance of benefiting but its not like other clubs are being denied that opportunity. That makes this season very different from past seasons.

As far as remedying the past goes, I think awarding titles to second place teams will be very empty after the fact (even as Arsenal would benefit). Not only does awarding a title 10 years later seem weird but second place in some of these seasons might have gone to a different team if everybody had known that City would be ineligible for the title.
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They have ruined this league as a competition, yes I will admit we had an unfair advantage for years but that was our own revenue not artificially created sponsorship which is the big difference.
 
For the posters saying it would be too complicated to just aware the league titles to the second place teams, how did Serie A handle it when Juventus were relegated? Did Inter etc. not get those titles?
 
croadyman said:
They have ruined this league as a competition, yes I will admit we had an unfair advantage for years but that was our own revenue not artificially created sponsorship which is the big difference.
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We had a fair advantage
 
croadyman said:
I meant in as much as our revenue was so significant that we could but whoever whereas other teams didn't have that luxury was my point
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Yet we were rarely the biggest spenders.
 
The biggest advantage we had was the greatest manager in British football history. Our spending was generally in line with the rest of the PL clubs that were chasing European competition.
 
Eboue said:
No, you had an advantage that was within the rules at the time. It means those titles are legitimate and well earned but it doesn't make it fair.
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Semantics.

As an adverb, fair means “without cheating or trying to achieve unjust advantage” which this qualifies for.

Theres nothing stopping others doing the same as we did over a 20 year period given the same incremental success and exploiting the commercial side.
 
Cloud7 said:
For the posters saying it would be too complicated to just aware the league titles to the second place teams, how did Serie A handle it when Juventus were relegated? Did Inter etc. not get those titles?
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Inter were awarded the title for the season that had just concluded at the time of the investigation (2005/06) which was when all the punishments were handed out. The previous season from where all the wrongdoings were found to have taken place no title was awarded.

All that was controversial too. The newly installed Italian football comissioner appointed 3 judges and only one of them voted to awarded the title to Inter, he ignored them anyway and conviced the footballing decision makers that giving it to Inter would be the right thing to do. He was formerly on Inter's board and had a minority stake in them in the past.

As a bit of a coincedence I was looking at Marseille over the weekend, they were stripped of the title in France for 92/93, paying their opponents to take it easy on them just ahead of the CL final they won. The investigation here was swift, and by September of the following season the title was removed. It was offred to PSG but they actually declined it.
 
Pexbo said:
Semantics.

As an adverb, fair means “without cheating or trying to achieve unjust advantage” which this qualifies for.

Theres nothing stopping others doing the same as we did over a 20 year period given the same incremental success and exploiting the commercial side.
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Not just semantics. The explosion of money happened at a time when Manchester United was ascendant. If it happened a few years earlier Liverpool would have benefited the most. It's just luck that the timing worked out for the club you support. But any one club having outsized wealth is not fair.
 
Chipper said:
Inter were awarded the title for the season that had just concluded at the time of the investigation (2005/06) which was when all the punishments were handed out. The previous season from where all the wrongdoings were found to have taken place no title was awarded.


All that was controversial too. The newly installed Italian football comissioner appointed 3 judges and only one of them voted to awarded the title to Inter, he ignored them anyway and he was formerly on Inter's board.

As a bit of a coincedence I was looking at Marseille over the weekend, they were stripped of the title in France for 92/93, paying their opponents to take it easy on them just ahead of the CL final they won. The investigation here was swift, and by September of the following season the title was removed. It was offred to PSG but they actually declined it.
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Ahh fair enough. I thought that multiple titles were awarded to the teams that placed second in those seasons, so there was some kind of precedent set. If there is no precedent outside of that one season, then fair enough, it might just be easier and cleaner to award it to no one.
 
Bright_Eyes said:
For me the annoying thing is it seems to be actively avoided. Every victory and cup is celebrated like nothing is happening.

As a side, in other sports wouldn't teams/athletes be suspended during such an investigation to maintain sporting integrity?
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Now this I do get, it irks me when all you see is pundits/media rubbing them over their jeans. But, I think once they’re found guilty all that will change. But for the time being, they have to play dumb for legal reasons.
 
Eboue said:
Not just semantics. The explosion of money happened at a time when Manchester United was ascendant. If it happened a few years earlier Liverpool would have benefited the most. It's just luck that the timing worked out for the club you support. But any one club having outsized wealth is not fair.
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That’s not unfair, we were just the club that took advantage of it through legal means. We didn’t do anything illegal and every other club could have done what we did had they taken the initiative.

Was there an element of luck with the timing? Sure, but I’m not sure how that qualifies as “unfair”.
 
SuperiorXI said:
I grew up in Wythenshawe, only very recently moved away. I know a handful of blues and their responses are pretty much defiance/denial.
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Yeah so I was going to say, if you live in Manchester, then you understand the dynamic at play here...

City were the perennial losers club for perennial losers. The down-and-outs, supporting a club who, like them, had no prospects, no ambition and who never achieved anything. Wallowing in the lower divisions, occasionally spending a year or two scrapping in the lower half of the Premier League...their only two real games of significance in any given season were United (H) and United (A).

The thing is...they had chosen this, they wanted this and they wore it like a badge of honour.

Now presented with an artificially successful side, a global franchise pumped full of Middle Eastern oil money, a club that bears no resemblance to the City of old, they have become everything they always claimed to hate.

So what do their pre-Etihad fans do? The only thing they CAN do really, which is to double-down, bury their heads in the sand and claim the whole World is against them - because their default position in life and in football is to be the underdog.

Of course they know their success is hollow, but I honestly don't think they care.
I think they care more about how they are portrayed, which is why they are so unbelievably sensitive and paranoid. They would hate to be portrayed as cheats who broke all the rules and who have bought their trophies.

They choose to portray themselves as little City, who have done nothing at all wrong and who are fighting the establishment, a corrupt cartel led by United, the traditional top four, the Premier League, the FA, UEFA and FIFA, who are all in cahoots against them.

Defiance is their identity. It's why they chose not to support United, despite growing up in Manchester during an unprecedented era of Red success. It's why they boo the Champions League anthem. It's why they rant on and on on social media and BlueMoon about conspiracies and agendas against them. It's why the ring TalkSports claiming there is a media bias against them.
 
Pexbo said:
That’s not unfair, we were just the club that took advantage of it through legal means. We didn’t do anything illegal and every other club could have done what we did had they taken the initiative.

Was there an element of luck with the timing? Sure, but I’m not sure how that qualifies as “unfair”.
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Now you're getting into semantics. At its core the game is 11 v 11. It has grown into a whole other thing where certain shirts sell more than others and teams compete on the value of the marketing department. That's fine. It's within the rules and you have to have structure and rules to anything.

But fundamentally one club being able to spend exponentially more than their competitors year after year is not fair. We all recognize it with City. Most non-United fans recognize it with United. It doesn't become more fair because United did it within the structures of the rules. More legitimate and deserving but not more fair.
 
Eboue said:
Now you're getting into semantics. At its core the game is 11 v 11. It has grown into a whole other thing where certain shirts sell more than others and teams compete on the value of the marketing department. That's fine. It's within the rules and you have to have structure and rules to anything.

But fundamentally one club being able to spend exponentially more than their competitors year after year is not fair. We all recognize it with City. Most non-United fans recognize it with United. It doesn't become more fair because United did it within the structures of the rules. More legitimate and deserving but not more fair.
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Yet for net spend we were 3rd in the 90s behind Newcastle and Liverpool and 4th in the 00s behind Chelsea, City(!) and Liverpool.
 
Pexbo said:
Yet we were rarely the biggest spenders.
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Blackburn, Newcastle, Liverpool, Chelsea, Man City. All these teams outspent United for the majority of the PL era while SAF was manager. Media narratives really do stick to people like fact even when a quick internet search proves otherwise.
 
Lentwood said:
Yeah so I was going to say, if you live in Manchester, then you understand the dynamic at play here...

City were the perennial losers club for perennial losers. The down-and-outs, supporting a club who, like them, had no prospects, no ambition and who never achieved anything. Wallowing in the lower divisions, occasionally spending a year or two scrapping in the lower half of the Premier League...their only two real games of significance in any given season were United (H) and United (A).

The thing is...they had chosen this, they wanted this and they wore it like a badge of honour.

Now presented with an artificially successful side, a global franchise pumped full of Middle Eastern oil money, a club that bears no resemblance to the City of old, they have become everything they always claimed to hate.

So what do their pre-Etihad fans do? The only thing they CAN do really, which is to double-down, bury their heads in the sand and claim the whole World is against them - because their default position in life and in football is to be the underdog.

Of course they know their success is hollow, but I honestly don't think they care.
I think they care more about how they are portrayed, which is why they are so unbelievably sensitive and paranoid. They would hate to be portrayed as cheats who broke all the rules and who have bought their trophies.

They choose to portray themselves as little City, who have done nothing at all wrong and who are fighting the establishment, a corrupt cartel led by United, the traditional top four, the Premier League, the FA, UEFA and FIFA, who are all in cahoots against them.

Defiance is their identity. It's why they chose not to support United, despite growing up in Manchester during an unprecedented era of Red success. It's why they boo the Champions League anthem. It's why they rant on and on on social media and BlueMoon about conspiracies and agendas against them. It's why the ring TalkSports claiming there is a media bias against them.
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All true. They are nuts.
 
Lentwood said:
Yeah so I was going to say, if you live in Manchester, then you understand the dynamic at play here...

City were the perennial losers club for perennial losers. The down-and-outs, supporting a club who, like them, had no prospects, no ambition and who never achieved anything. Wallowing in the lower divisions, occasionally spending a year or two scrapping in the lower half of the Premier League...their only two real games of significance in any given season were United (H) and United (A).

The thing is...they had chosen this, they wanted this and they wore it like a badge of honour.

Now presented with an artificially successful side, a global franchise pumped full of Middle Eastern oil money, a club that bears no resemblance to the City of old, they have become everything they always claimed to hate.

So what do their pre-Etihad fans do? The only thing they CAN do really, which is to double-down, bury their heads in the sand and claim the whole World is against them - because their default position in life and in football is to be the underdog.

Of course they know their success is hollow, but I honestly don't think they care.
I think they care more about how they are portrayed, which is why they are so unbelievably sensitive and paranoid. They would hate to be portrayed as cheats who broke all the rules and who have bought their trophies.

They choose to portray themselves as little City, who have done nothing at all wrong and who are fighting the establishment, a corrupt cartel led by United, the traditional top four, the Premier League, the FA, UEFA and FIFA, who are all in cahoots against them.

Defiance is their identity. It's why they chose not to support United, despite growing up in Manchester during an unprecedented era of Red success. It's why they boo the Champions League anthem. It's why they rant on and on on social media and BlueMoon about conspiracies and agendas against them. It's why the ring TalkSports claiming there is a media bias against them.
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The bolded is an absolutely disgusting comment tarring a large group of people from different backgrounds, ethnicities and social status with the same brush.

It'd be like me saying "All United fans are massive arrogant glory hunters who look down their nose at people despite never achieving anything but living vicariously through a football club.".
If I made such a comment I'd rightly be banned but I wouldn't say that cause I have the intelligence to not tag thousands and thousands of people based on an opinion I pulled straight out of my arse.
 
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