City and Financial Doping | Charged by PL with numerous FFP breaches | Hearing begins 16th September 2024

[adexkola]

Vastly underestimating the advantages they have over the rest of the league.

The fact that a half cooked City won titles under coaches like Mancini and Pellegrini says enough.

Now, full blown super-City reporting the biggest profits in football in legitimate financial documents?

They don’t need Guardiola or anyone else. Not anymore.

Not true.

Keep in mind that Klopp pushed them in 2 title races to within a point at the final whistle. Arteta is most likely going to have Arsenal finish within 2 points of City. And this is a City with Guardiola. I don't think Mancini or Pellegrini, as good as they were, finish with this City team ahead of Liverpool back then and Arsenal

City's wealth and back-office expertise guarantees their minimum base level. To really be elite, regardless of the wealth, you need elite coaching. So remove Pep and replace him with Emery... And City have 2-3 less titles, and the bitching about competitiveness of the league dies down

And what I'm really saying is that Arsenal/Liverpool/United need to hire a squad of goons that kidnap Pep, take him to a remote island full of resources and tactics white boards, and maroon him there for 3 years

 

[Yakuza_devils]

United won the whole thing all but two years between 92 and 2000 didn’t they?

After that, Chelsea joining the party is the only thing that kept it from being a 3 team league.

City is on a decent run, but they gave t even locked down the title this year …. Yet, and the competition for spots, all the way into the middle of the table, is extremely strong.

United isn’t winning like they used to, but the league is a lot more competitive than it was “back then” as a whole.

The PL should never put themselves in a position of losing out on talent and market share to other leagues just to compensate for bad owners at historic clubs.

If they want to set spending limits? Fine, but those limits should be high. There should be more concern with the best teams in England competing with the best teams in Europe than there is over the spend budget of the Luton Town’s of the world; that’s ridiculous.

And the spending limits should be fair. The idea that one team should be able to spend more money than another because their money came from Jersey sales is stupid. It was an obvious attempt to cement the position of certain teams.

City should get busted, but because they committed fraud, not because the FFP rules are in any way a remotely fair or good idea.

Didn’t the City of Madrid once sell Real land for 30m then buy it back from them for like 500m?

On a larger scale FFP is an artificial way to keep historic leagues from getting passed over as well.

It’s all a joke, and United would be benefitting from this incredibly, but you have the worst owners in Pro Sports. But that isn’t every other team in Englands fault. That problem is hopefully being remedied with Ineos.

The key point here is that Man Utd won fair and square. Man Utd didn't cheats, inflated the market artificially, create unsustainable competition with constant "extraordinary" revenues. They are going to get stronger and stronger because since Covid they are now the highest revenues club in PL. Their revenues are even higher than BM and close to RM and Barcelona too (if not surpassed them).

The monopoly monster will become bigger and bigger. Man Utd didn't compete with such vast advantages that's almost impossible for others.

PL need not only spending caps but also need to punish whatever wrong doings of City. Wrong is wrong, not ifs and buts.

 

[croadyman]

The Lance Armstrong of football, without the mitigating sympathy of illness - other than what seems to be mental illness among the fans who still drudge on, arguing any way possible that their rotten club hasn't ruined football and will be forever associated with cheating. They'll hoover up a new generation of YouTube fan types who are too young to remember the sport when it was any other way, and will celebrate their empty success every year with that hollow, pretend joy that has become the norm.

Absolutely spot on comparison

 

[Cloud7]

It's pointless trying to compete with a club that have been playing with an infinite money cheat for a decade.

When you're going against a club that have two first team lineups, who overnight went from also-rans into hiring managers like Mancini (where we know for certain he was paid under the table, otherwise he wouldn't have given them a second thought) and then luring Pep and his Barca backroom team, throwing all the money under the sun at him, fake sponsors, with a dozen custom built feeder clubs at their disposal so they can further circumvent FFP... Really, what is the fecking point?

I don't even want United to win everything - we had our time at the top. If it happens again then great, but I won't lose sleep over it. That's life. But the drama of the Premier League - arguably the thing that has made it so popular across the world - is gone. Arsenal would win in any normal season (especially without the questionable ref decisions that seem to do City favours as well). Nothing will change next season either; it's just a parade* towards City winning another title.

*A parade that's bigger than their end of season ones where nearly feck all people turn up because the one thing they can't buy are fans.

This was really what pushed me over the edge with city. When it was just the money they were spending on players and managers, it was whatever for me (Not aiming to debate that point) but then stories started to come out about the sketchy things they were doing with all these other clubs they owned, and honestly it just all became appalling to me. I guess it makes sense if you are trying to do what they're doing, but I can't see how you can enjoy that unless you don't have a soul. I would hate to see us go down this multi club ownership route regardless of any benefits it might have for us.

And as for the rest of your post, I agree with you. The PL is the real farmer's league these days. We start every season expecting city to win. Even if a team leads the league for most of the season, you still expect city to win. The PL title 'race' is very boring.

For me personally, I attribute a lot of that to pep, because he is on another level when it comes to dominating league campaigns, and I suppose we'll see what the drop off is when they have to go from pep to a mortal manager, but regardless of that, it is hard not to say that the pl is very boring as a spectacle these days.

 

[Garnacho's Shoelaces]

The panel judging them only has to decide on the balance of probabilities. Did Man City probably cheat? Did Man City probably corrupt the PL? Did Man City probably money launder through artificial sponsorships and fake companies?

Yes.

15 years of wide scale corruption, damaging the revenues of so many other teams operating within the rules. They'll have to be expelled from the PL. Ideally permanently, but at least for a period reflective of the long-term nature of their corruption; i.e. 5-10 years.

Do the EFL accept them? If so, how does that work? Most likely outcome is still that they end up out of the football pyramid. At least there's no FFP for them to worry about below League 2?

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

In 21/22 they lost one match in the PL from October to the end of the season

In 22/23 they lost one match in all competitions, a dead rubber on the final day of the season with the title already won, from the start of February to the end of the season

in 23/24 they've lost one match in all competitions from the start of December, to Real Madrid on pens in a game they probably should have won, and we're almost at the end of the season.

It's just fecking mental, how do you compete with that?

 

[erikcred]

In 21/22 they lost one match in the PL from October to the end of the season

In 22/23 they lost one match in all competitions, a dead rubber on the final day of the season with the title already won, from the start of February to the end of the season

in 23/24 they've lost one match in all competitions from the start of December, to Real Madrid on pens in a game they probably should have won, and we're almost at the end of the season.

It's just fecking mental, how do you compete with that?

I take your broader point, but these seemingly monstrous sporting achievements didn't come without massive assistance from the refs. There've been quite a few games in which they've been bailed out some ridiculous refereeing decisions. With them winning the title by very close margins in 3 recent seasons (including this one), that's easily been the difference between them and Liverpool/Arsenal.

 

[Garnacho's Shoelaces]

I take your broader point, but these seemingly monstrous sporting achievements didn't come without massive assistance from the refs. There've been quite a few games in which they've been bailed out some ridiculous refereeing decisions. With them winning the title by very close margins in 3 recent seasons (including this one), that's easily been the difference between them and Liverpool/Arsenal.

That's the advantage you gain by corrupting the likes of Michael Oliver with bribes by over invoicing their services with all expenses paid trips.

They can't afford to take any risks with the FA Cup Final so had to get their inside man on VAR for it.

 

[padzilla]

The fact City's owners also own Etihad who are the team's main sponsor should be all the evidence needed that something is amiss.

 

[MrMarcello]

The fact City's owners also own Etihad who are the team's main sponsor should be all the evidence needed that something is amiss.

I remember plenty calling out such an obvious inflation of market rates when Etihad first signed on as a stadium rights sponsor, along with the obvious family connection. The craziness in it was claiming their naming rights* were legitimately worth double the then world record amount for Madison Square Garden rights and dwarfed similar naming rights deals across the globe. The club was now claiming it was a global brand appeal through such high fee paid, utter nonsense in 2011. It was obvious to anyone with an honest view they had inflated the market to cook the books, meet FFP rules, and immediately compete for big signings and wages.

*Including a revised kit deal which had been around 4m per year previously.

 

[Fortitude]

I remember plenty calling out such an obvious inflation of market rates when Etihad first signed on as a stadium rights sponsor, along with the obvious family connection. The craziness in it was claiming their naming rights* were legitimately worth double the then world record amount for Madison Square Garden rights and dwarfed similar naming rights deals across the globe. The club was now claiming it was a global brand appeal through such high fee paid, utter nonsense in 2011. It was obvious to anyone with an honest view they had inflated the market to cook the books, meet FFP rules, and immediately compete for big signings and wages.

*Including a revised kit deal which had been around 4m per year previously.

Sponsoring and setting rates for yourself. What could possibly go wrong? Nothing to see here so long as the cutbacks come in on time per week.

 

[croadyman]

We could get a rich backer then get slapped with a 3 window transfer ban a decade down the line you’d think yeah sure. That’s fine.

If they get sent down to the fourth or fifth tier which should happen then yeah sure that’s the price of ill gotten gains surely. Give them 5 years to get their house in order and return.

Their fans are in complete and utter denial I have never seen a more rapid unapologetic fanbase when it comes to defending their club. Apparently they aren’t owned by a state and it’s just a company so that’s absolutely fine..

Anyways if they get let off we should start the super league with Real Madrid very simple. I’m not wanting to play in a league that’s already corrupt when we can just bar City from a Super League regardless.

If they want their own system / rules we make our own with other clubs I say. United do not need the premier league that’s a fact. They need us.

Amazon deals all that good stuff Id just put in motion right away if they get a slap on the wrist.

Yeah I could definitely support that because let's face it whatever the "official" verdict everyone knows they are absolutely corrupt as feck

 

[MrMarcello]

Sponsoring and setting rates for yourself. What could possibly go wrong? Nothing to see here so long as the cutbacks come in on time per week.

John Henry sarcastically tweeted, "How much was the losing bid?"

 

[Fortitude]

John Henry sarcastically tweeted, "How much was the losing bid?"

 

[croadyman]

PL used to be the most competitive and exciting league in the world which enable it to generate incomes far above other leagues.

PL is sabotaging itself if they let City's have their way. PL will be like Bundesliga - BM, Ligue 1 - PSG, PL - City. These 3 teams are too far ahead of the rest and it kills the competitiveness and excitement.

Yeah couldn't have put it any better

 

[Nori-]

If there was ever a case in football that stunk of corruption, this is it.

Everton and Nottingham Forest cases wrapped up in no time, almost costing them relagation.

City with 115+ charges, FFP all over the place, and theyre left to keep winning trophies and p**sing all over the rule book, that everyone else must stick too.

 

[croadyman]

If there was ever a case in football that stunk of corruption, this is it.

Everton and Nottingham Forest cases wrapped up in no time, almost costing them relagation.

City with 115+ charges, FFP all over the place, and theyre left to keep winning trophies and p**sing all over the rule book, that everyone else must stick too.

Yeah City are absolutely corrupt but they have scared authorities into doing pretty much nothing

 

[Buckie]

And what I'm really saying is that Arsenal/Liverpool/United need to hire a squad of goons that kidnap Pep, take him to a remote island full of resources and tactics white boards, and maroon him there for 3 years

I don't have any problem with this!

 

[frostbite]

Is this the same organization that had no problem with Abramovich for so many years?

 

[duffer]

It's not about the money guys.

 

[Real Name]

He'll be the 1st rat to abandon ship when (if) they get punished.

 

[RoyH1]

He's not wrong about other clubs being poorly run with the money at their disposal. What he's conveniently forgetting is that City shouldn't be eating at that table to begin with. Theirs is not an organic rise a la Leicester or Bayer Leverkusen, but an artificially pumped sportswashing project.

City's financial pull distorts the market and is making a mockery of the league. Their second XI could finish in the top 5 in the PL.

 

[RoyH1]

He'll be the 1st rat to abandon ship when (if) they get punished.

They'll get a slap on the wrist at most. The league doesn't have the stomach to take the fight to the courts and their army of lobbyist's will make sure politicians on both sides of the aisle don't raise too much of a fuss.

 

[HTG]

It's not about the money guys.

The worst hypocrite of them all. So obsessed with football, legacy and quality of play, he doesn’t even realise his success with City is completely meaningless for the game itself. If there ever was a football person who sold their soul, it’s Pep.

 

[tomaldinho1]

It's not about the money guys.

City press officer's scrabbling for some reason to explain how Pep is right but they are also making more money than Real Madrid

 

[Zen86]

The worst hypocrite of them all. So obsessed with football, legacy and quality of play, he doesn’t even realise his success with City is completely meaningless for the game itself. If there ever was a football person who sold their soul, it’s Pep.

He’s too far up his own arse to acknowledge the fact they’ve spent more money in the PL than any other club, ever.

 

[HTG]

He’s too far up his own arse to acknowledge the fact they’ve spent more money in the PL than any other club, ever.

Yep. He’s the perfect frontman for a dirty business like this one. So narcissistic, so far up his own ass, he’ll do everything to deny his bosses wrongdoings, simply because he won’t ever be able to acknowledge them himself.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

It's not about the money guys.

I have a lot of contempt for this person.

 

[Zen86]

Yep. He’s the perfect frontman for a dirty business like this one. So narcissistic, so far up his own ass, he’ll do everything to deny his bosses wrongdoings, simply because he won’t ever be able to acknowledge them himself.

It would be nice to see them stripped of their titles even if it’s just to see his reaction to it. He would spend the rest of his days ranting about conspiracies and corruption against him and his overlords.

 

[adexkola]

He's not wrong about other clubs being poorly run with the money at their disposal. What he's conveniently forgetting is that City shouldn't be eating at that table to begin with. Theirs is not an organic rise a la Leicester or Bayer Leverkusen, but an artificially pumped sportswashing project.

City's financial pull distorts the market and is making a mockery of the league. Their second XI could finish in the top 5 in the PL.

He's not wrong about other clubs being poorly run with huge riches. Which makes it harder to say it's all about the money they splash, when we have 2 perfect counterexamples in this league, and Barcelona with their levers elsewhere...

Leicester's rise wasn't organic .

City's rise not being "organic" is not unique to them; clubs like Chelsea and Blackburn and Milan and Madrid have benefited from "artificial" injections of money. They just had the misfortune of doing it in the last decade instead of 20-50 years ago. Oh, and doing it after rules were implemented to officially prevent clubs from going bankrupt, with the innocuous side effect of locking in a certain elite (but we know that was just an innocent mistake from UEFA and co). If they beat the charges/don't get punitive punishment, the nature of their funding will be forgotten as time goes on.

City's financial pull is a secondary/tertiary factor in the market being distorted; the primary factor is the collective wealth of the PL relative to the rest of Europe.

 

[HTG]

It would be nice to see them stripped of their titles even if it’s just to see his reaction to it. He would spend the rest of his days ranting about conspiracies and corruption against him and his overlords.

It would be a thing of beauty. He’s become so incredibly bitter.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

He's not wrong about other clubs being poorly run with huge riches. Which makes it harder to say it's all about the money they splash, when we have 2 perfect counterexamples in this league, and Barcelona with their levers elsewhere...

Leicester's rise wasn't organic .

City's rise not being "organic" is not unique to them; clubs like Chelsea and Blackburn and Milan and Madrid have benefited from "artificial" injections of money. They just had the misfortune of doing it in the last decade instead of 20-50 years ago. Oh, and doing it after rules were implemented to officially prevent clubs from going bankrupt, with the innocuous side effect of locking in a certain elite (but we know that was just an innocent mistake from UEFA and co). If they beat the charges/don't get punitive punishment, the nature of their funding will be forgotten as time goes on.

City's financial pull is a secondary/tertiary factor in the market being distorted; the primary factor is the collective wealth of the PL relative to the rest of Europe.

Amd being backed by a State, which you've conveniently ignored but is a huge issue for most people that see an issue with City's rise.

The checks and balance in money expenditure between a sovereign State and a company, as rich as it might be, are just ridiculously different and can't be ignored when discussing this topic. State backing should not be allowed in (competitive) sports.

Your third paragraph is just sports washing propaganda bullet points as has been discussed several times before, but that you just keep bringing up for some reason.

 

[Zen86]

It would be a thing of beauty. He’s become so incredibly bitter.

He would go full Laurence Fox I reckon

 

[Zen86]

Amd being backed by a State, which you've conveniently ignored but is a huge issue for most people that see an issue with City's rise.

The checks and balance in money expenditure between a sovereign State and a company, as rich as it might be, are just ridiculously different and can't be ignored when discussing this topic. State backing should not be allowed in (competitive) sports.

Your third paragraph is just sports washing propaganda bullet points as has been discussed several times before, but that you just keep bringing up for some reason.

And the political power as well. If United or Arsenal had been done for 115 charges it would have been done and dusted long ago. But it’s City, and it’s basically the PL vs the UAE.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

And the political power as well. If United or Arsenal had been done for 115 charges it would have been done and dusted long ago. But it’s City, and it’s basically the PL vs the UAE.

It probably wasn't clear in my message but yes that's also what I meant. It's just a completely different entity with too many ramifications and ties, Beyond the political power, their mindset is also drastically different, as attested by their systemic cheating - they don't believe rules should apply to them. Other teams have breached rules of course, but not in the same manner or with the same scope as Abu Dhabi has.

 

[Real Name]

Amd being backed by a State, which you've conveniently ignored but is a huge issue for most people that see an issue with City's rise.

The checks and balance in money expenditure between a sovereign State and a company, as rich as it might be, are just ridiculously different and can't be ignored when discussing this topic. State backing should not be allowed in (competitive) sports.

Your third paragraph is just sports washing propaganda bullet points as has been discussed several times before, but that you just keep bringing up for some reason.

He doesnt like his idol Pep being targeted.

 

[adexkola]

Amd being backed by a State, which you've conveniently ignored but is a huge issue for most people that see an issue with City's rise.

The checks and balance in money expenditure between a sovereign State and a company, as rich as it might be, are just ridiculously different and can't be ignored when discussing this topic. State backing should not be allowed in (competitive) sports.

Your third paragraph is just sports washing propaganda bullet points as has been discussed several times before, but that you just keep bringing up for some reason.

I've argued for much more restrictive financial controls that eliminate extreme forms of wealth in the game, whether they are from countries or companies. I'm not twisting myself about to say 1 is ok and the other is evil. That's nonsensical. Wealth inequality driving football success is bad for the game, period.

No it isn't, If you think City's wealth is the primary factor in the distorted market, and not Bournemouth being able to outbid Milan for talent, then I don't know why you're even bothering replying my post.

 

[Zen86]

I've argued for much more restrictive financial controls that eliminate extreme forms of wealth in the game, whether they are from countries or companies. I'm not twisting myself about to say 1 is ok and the other is evil. That's nonsensical. Wealth inequality driving football success is bad for the game, period.

No it isn't, If you think City's wealth is the primary factor in the distorted market, and not Bournemouth being able to outbid Milan for talent, then I don't know why you're even bothering replying my post.

You think Bournemouth outbidding Milan is the primary reason why the market is distorted?

 

[Mart1974]

I've argued for much more restrictive financial controls that eliminate extreme forms of wealth in the game, whether they are from countries or companies. I'm not twisting myself about to say 1 is ok and the other is evil. That's nonsensical. Wealth inequality driving football success is bad for the game, period.

No it isn't, If you think City's wealth is the primary factor in the distorted market, and not Bournemouth being able to outbid Milan for talent, then I don't know why you're even bothering replying my post.

Strapline checks out

 

[RoyH1]

I've argued for much more restrictive financial controls that eliminate extreme forms of wealth in the game, whether they are from countries or companies. I'm not twisting myself about to say 1 is ok and the other is evil. That's nonsensical. Wealth inequality driving football success is bad for the game, period.

No it isn't, If you think City's wealth is the primary factor in the distorted market, and not Bournemouth being able to outbid Milan for talent, then I don't know why you're even bothering replying my post.

I'm far, far from a PL fanboy as you will see from my posting history.
But 'small' English clubs outbidding European giants comes from their great television deal. This is a result of the PL excelling at marketing, delivering a good product at friendly kickoff times for other markets and ultimately, being the best and biggest league in the English speaking world. English being the lingua franca of the world it's not a surprise they are the easiest to follow for most neutrals around the world. There's a cultural/language disadvantage there for the other big leagues no matter how much English language content they produce.

How you can compare that form of inequality with the Abu Dhabi (or Saudi) government investing in football for sportwashing purposes is beyond me. And for me there is a fundamental, essential difference between a state investing as opposed to a a private individual. The latter can with greater ease lose interest, go bankrupt or simply not be able to sustain the relentless spending that City has had. I suppose if you're in the Musk, Gates or Jeff Bezos level you could, but you don't get to be that rich by buying guys who kick a ball for a living. They know better. Even Abramovich had to stop his spending at one point as will the crazy yank who owns Chelsea now. Abu Dhabi can just keep on going as long as there is oil in the ground.

And just for the record, it has nothing to do with being evil or not as you put it.. I would be just as critical if it was the Norwegian national oil investment fund owning the City group.