City and Financial Doping | Charged by PL with numerous FFP breaches | Hearing begins 16th September 2024

Woodzy said:
If you guys want a laugh then pop over and have a look at the thread Bluemoon have in this.

Jesus Christ, I’ve never seen such nonsense in my life. Apparently they are completely innocent and all of this is being stirred up by United and Liverpool because they run the PL…
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Why on earth would you go to Blue Moon?

They're lunatics on that side. And I don't use that word lightly.

One peek years ago scarred me for life. What's with their use of the word rags?
 
Woodzy said:
If you guys want a laugh then pop over and have a look at the thread Bluemoon have in this.

Jesus Christ, I’ve never seen such nonsense in my life. Apparently they are completely innocent and all of this is being stirred up by United and Liverpool because they run the PL…
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I've long since given up reading Bluemoon, it's delusion at its most extreme.

It must be what happens when you have everything but know deep down that you can't really enjoy it.
 
E.3, E.4, E.11, E.12, E.51, B.16, 3, E.4, E.11, E.12 , E50...

I have seen fewer combinations of letters and numbers on ingredient labels in the ultra-processed food section of my supermarket.
 
Anything other than relegation to the fourth division will be outrageously soft on City if they are found guilty of these charges.

That said, I think them largely getting away with it causes less problems for the FA so the punishment will probably be a massive fine and a token points deduction.

Quite frankly top level soccer is a cesspool of corruption right now so why should this be any different.
Look at how Infantino deliberately brought the bidding process for the 2034 World Cup to suit Saudi.

Also, the same government in power now in the UK told the FA to allow Saudi to buy Newcastle when they had initially blocked the takeover.

It's on record there have already been talks between them and the UAE government who own City about the charges - why is anyone doubting this is going to go City's way?
 
Anything less than titles stripped for the seasons they have found to be cheating and a point deduction going forward will be a farce.But of course that's not going to happen.Money talks.
 
My prediction is city will eventually accept a "lesser" penalty of a points deduction of somewhere between 10 and 20 points. The investigation will then disappear and everyone will have forgotten this within 18 months.
 
MancunianAngels said:
My prediction is city will eventually accept a "lesser" penalty of a points deduction of somewhere between 10 and 20 points. The investigation will then disappear and everyone will have forgotten this within 18 months.
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I get where you're coming from in that they could get away with it softly. But the 10 point deduction for Everton now sets the bar. And that was for one charge. I really can't see between 10 to 20 points.
 
People are looking at this as football fans. The decision makers are not football fans. They are interested in the propserity of the FA, or if it evolves into 'real' politics, the greater geopolitical cooperation of a key ally.

Even if it was somehow restricted only to an FA or Premier League decision - both of those bodies are incentivised to not punish City. These organisations are only thriving based on brand management. It's the richest league in the world because the brand is so strong.

Admitting that the biggest proponent of that brand for the last decade was unashamedly cheating would cause huge damage to said brand. More damage than the status quo: whereby everyone (except some seriously delusional City fans) knows that the sugar daddy clubs are 'cheating' but no one cares, because the product is still so good.

I spent a lot of time in the states in the last few years, and their coverage of City couldn't be more fawning if it was brainstormed in an Abu Dhabi conference room.

The only way I could imagine City actually being punished would be if the other clubs agreed, but I think most of them would rather continue to get huge payments for medicore performance rather than risk a bit hit to the TV money.

I believe when the accounts were averaged out, Chelsea managed to 'lose' something like 100m per year because Roman just gave it to them. At a time when that was a lot more money than today. Everyone seemed fine with Chelsea buying the league like that. If you're fine with that, I don't see why you're not fine with City doing the same thing, they might as well have just been open about it.
 
People are looking at this as football fans. The decision makers are not football fans. They are interested in the propserity of the FA, or if it evolves into 'real' politics, the greater geopolitical cooperation of a key ally.

Even if it was somehow restricted only to an FA or Premier League decision - both of those bodies are incentivised to not punish City. These organisations are only thriving based on brand management. It's the richest league in the world because the brand is so strong.

Admitting that the biggest proponent of that brand for the last decade was unashamedly cheating would cause huge damage to said brand. More damage than the status quo: whereby everyone (except some seriously delusional City fans) knows that the sugar daddy clubs are 'cheating' but no one cares, because the product is still so good.

I spent a lot of time in the states in the last few years, and their coverage of City couldn't be more fawning if it was brainstormed in an Abu Dhabi conference room.

The only way I could imagine City actually being punished would be if the other clubs agreed, but I think most of them would rather continue to get huge payments for medicore performance rather than risk a bit hit to the TV money.

I believe when the accounts were averaged out, Chelsea managed to 'lose' something like 100m per year because Roman just gave it to them. At a time when that was a lot more money than today. Everyone seemed fine with Chelsea buying the league like that. If you're fine with that, I don't see why you're not fine with City doing the same thing, they might as well have just been open about it.
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In a nut shell.
 
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Reddevildans said:
I get where you're coming from in that they could get away with it softly. But the 10 point deduction for Everton now sets the bar. And that was for one charge. I really can't see between 10 to 20 points.
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If the Premier League carries on with their full investigation, it could take years to reach a conclusion (there's 115 charges remember...)

If they did pursue, there's every chance it could lead to a relegation. There's also a fair chance it leads to nothing aside from a fine.

They will eventually try and nail them on a handful of charges, hence the "lesser" punishment.
 
It’s clear now if there’s not a punishment then the league will meltdown. They almost have to banish City now or clubs will take it into their own hands
 
To me the only punishment that will be worth any salt is for all their titles to be stripped. That's the only punishment that will truly tell clubs that this BS won't be tolerated and if anyone makes an attempt to cheat, you'll have your achievement wiped from the record books. Same thing with Chelsea, if they've been financially cheating in all of their Abromavich era then they too should have their titles stripped.

Its hugely unfortunate that the only proper punishments will come at the expense of the Premier League's reputation, which probably means it won't ever happen.
 
cyberman said:
It’s clear now if there’s not a punishment then the league will meltdown. They almost have to banish City now or clubs will take it into their own hands
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I don't think that will happen.

Everyone already knows/knew City aren't legitimate, which is why they get next to zero coverage even when they win the treble, because there's no real acknowledgement of sporting achievement attached to it.

The smaller clubs are more interested in getting their massive TV money or cashing in on teams like City buying their players. So they'll have a big whine if they're the ones who get punished but none of the other clubs will back them up because there is nothing financially to gain from it, and that is what the Premier League is now all about. If it wasn't there'd already be much more fuss over City because teams would genuinely want to compete with them on a sporting level.

Most of the teams who can even hope to do that are probably bending the rules themselves. Or in Chelsea's case sticking two fingers up at them and slapping the judge in the face with his own wig.
 
The titles need to be stripped off.
Anything other than that would be a massive injustice.
 
noodlehair said:
I don't think that will happen.

Everyone already knows/knew City aren't legitimate, which is why they get next to zero coverage even when they win the treble, because there's no real acknowledgement of sporting achievement attached to it.

The smaller clubs are more interested in getting their massive TV money or cashing in on teams like City buying their players. So they'll have a big whine if they're the ones who get punished but none of the other clubs will back them up because there is nothing financially to gain from it, and that is what the Premier League is now all about. If it wasn't there'd already be much more fuss over City because teams would genuinely want to compete with them on a sporting level.

Most of the teams who can even hope to do that are probably bending the rules themselves. Or in Chelsea's case sticking two fingers up at them and slapping the judge in the face with his own wig.
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But wasn’t it the rest of the league putting pressure on the FA to charge them the catalyst for all of this?
We keep saying nobody wants to rock the boat while the boat is in the middle of doing cartwheels.
 
I think it's all setup so that the "charges" happen after Pep has left, so he can keep up his claim that he didn't know anyone wrong doing was happening while he was there.

The PL will hit them hard eventually, City will appeal and the punishment will be less after a year of appeals, something like points deduction and a massive fine is all they will end up with.
 
Premier League, all the fans are watching you now. Once you put that number on Everton there is no way back now. With VAR scandals, referees and all things happening in football there is big question mark about football and its survival.

If Everton can get 10 points deduction for that breach I have no idea how ManCity would get away with anything less then being demoted couple of leagues down, taken their titels away from all those years and get some kind of transfer ban for 10-15 years.

I think by giving Everton that, they have opened the door for some hard, tough consequences.
 
noodlehair said:
I don't think that will happen.

Everyone already knows/knew City aren't legitimate, which is why they get next to zero coverage even when they win the treble, because there's no real acknowledgement of sporting achievement attached to it.

The smaller clubs are more interested in getting their massive TV money or cashing in on teams like City buying their players. So they'll have a big whine if they're the ones who get punished but none of the other clubs will back them up because there is nothing financially to gain from it, and that is what the Premier League is now all about. If it wasn't there'd already be much more fuss over City because teams would genuinely want to compete with them on a sporting level.

Most of the teams who can even hope to do that are probably bending the rules themselves. Or in Chelsea's case sticking two fingers up at them and slapping the judge in the face with his own wig.
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Not sure I agree with that. Of the 19 clubs another 2 are up to the same tricks so they will side with City.

Everton are guaranteed dead against them having been punished for far less.

Then us, Liverpool and Arsenal are all far bigger clubs than City who have lost out to their cheating. We will all want them done and have significant influence. Probably chuck Spurs into that mix too. So that's 5 of the biggest clubs in the league.

Then of the remaining 12 it will probably be split about 50/50 between those who feel they unfairly lose 6 points every season and those who hope to catch the eye of an oligarch themselves. The key though is how much additional risk they all have to take on with the price inflation of players.

If City get away with it I don't think the clubs will take it quietly. The PL will have to tread a fine line with a punishment that satisfies everybody but doesn't actually cost City. I think stripping the titles would do that nicely. Justice is served but City still got to use them at the time to boost their profile.
 
I love the fantasy of relegation and title stripping. Reading through this wish-list is really fun as a football fan, and it's a lovely idea. Sadly, it will remain a fantasy because football is about money, and politics, and City give the PL even higher revenues through their cheating, as well as providing a way to show their submission to the middle east oil bosses. There's no way they rock this boat. Probably just looking for a big cash injection.
 
Beachryan said:
People are looking at this as football fans. The decision makers are not football fans. They are interested in the propserity of the FA, or if it evolves into 'real' politics, the greater geopolitical cooperation of a key ally.

Even if it was somehow restricted only to an FA or Premier League decision - both of those bodies are incentivised to not punish City. These organisations are only thriving based on brand management. It's the richest league in the world because the brand is so strong.

Admitting that the biggest proponent of that brand for the last decade was unashamedly cheating would cause huge damage to said brand. More damage than the status quo: whereby everyone (except some seriously delusional City fans) knows that the sugar daddy clubs are 'cheating' but no one cares, because the product is still so good. …….
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I think completely the opposite is true personally.
May as well watch US wrestling if you aren’t going to come down hard on this.
The precedent has been set now with Everton. Anything that isn’t proportionate to that will see lawsuits galore and everything could quite easily implode from there
 
cyberman said:
But wasn’t it the rest of the league putting pressure on the FA to charge them the catalyst for all of this?
We keep saying nobody wants to rock the boat while the boat is in the middle of doing cartwheels.
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I think it was more the evidence being spewled all over the internet and then being made publicly available anyway due to the UEFA case, meaning the PL has to at least pretend to do something about it.
 
11101 said:
Not sure I agree with that. Of the 19 clubs another 2 are up to the same tricks so they will side with City.

Everton are guaranteed dead against them having been punished for far less.

Then us, Liverpool and Arsenal are all far bigger clubs than City who have lost out to their cheating. We will all want them done and have significant influence. Probably chuck Spurs into that mix too. So that's 5 of the biggest clubs in the league.

Then of the remaining 12 it will probably be split about 50/50 between those who feel they unfairly lose 6 points every season and those who hope to catch the eye of an oligarch themselves. The key though is how much additional risk they all have to take on with the price inflation of players.

If City get away with it I don't think the clubs will take it quietly. The PL will have to tread a fine line with a punishment that satisfies everybody but doesn't actually cost City. I think stripping the titles would do that nicely. Justice is served but City still got to use them at the time to boost their profile.
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Can you genuinely say Man Utd and Spurs are more interested in competing with City and winning the league than they are in making money?

Even if City operated fairly, a majority of the lower teams also aren't having 6 points stolen off them a season. It might mean that they don't get given £100m for Jack Grealish though. Or that they all get less money out of a TV deal if teams like City have to start pusing for the money to be distributed less evenly or go back to threatening the super league idea.

I think its a bit naive to think the big clubs aren't mainly on the same page. The front facing part (players, manager, etc.) want to compete and do well. Behind that its about money and status. Remember All of the big six were in on the super league idea and there would have been no benefit for any of them in terms of competing in the PL, because they wouldn't have been in it anymore...and every other team is effectively reliant on those big six for their own revenue.
 
The Premier League will wait until they've mathematically won the title by X points, and then "hit" them with a points penalty one less than what they're ahead by.

Anyone expecting anything substantial to come out of this needs to give their heads a wobble. They've unlimited pockets, and they'll tie the Premier League up in red tape for years.
 
noodlehair said:
Can you genuinely say Man Utd and Spurs are more interested in competing with City and winning the league than they are in making money?

Even if City operated fairly, a majority of the lower teams also aren't having 6 points stolen off them a season. It might mean that they don't get given £100m for Jack Grealish though. Or that they all get less money out of a TV deal if teams like City have to start pusing for the money to be distributed less evenly or go back to threatening the super league idea.

I think its a bit naive to think the big clubs aren't mainly on the same page. The front facing part (players, manager, etc.) want to compete and do well. Behind that its about money and status. Remember All of the big six were in on the super league idea and there would have been no benefit for any of them in terms of competing in the PL, because they wouldn't have been in it anymore...and every other team is effectively reliant on those big six for their own revenue.
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Competing for the league is how you make money...

Without City all clubs would be better off, both in trophies and in money. They are not a big enough name to be driving commercial revenue growth but they are forcing clubs to get dangerously close to the limits in terms of player costs.

Don't forget the Super League idea was partly in response to clubs like City.
 
11101 said:
Competing for the league is how you make money...

Without City all clubs would be better off, both in trophies and in money. They are not a big enough name to be driving commercial revenue growth but they are forcing clubs to get dangerously close to the limits in terms of player costs.

Don't forget the Super League idea was partly in response to clubs like City.
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Who would be better off in terms of trophies and money without City? Maybe United, Arsenal and Liverpool? All three owned by private individuals who's primary concern is making money. And would it even benefit them that much? Man Utd haven't "competed" in the league for 10 years and they're still making plenty of money...well the owners are. Everyone else will get their TV money either way and their concern is more about maintaining the status quo and/or surviving in the PL, to which City are an insignificant factor. There is a bigger risk in rocking the boat and trying to force hand the bigger teams into playing by rules they don't want to, than there is in accepting that sometimes Man City, Chelsea, etc. might cheat financially, which to someone like Aston Villa isn't really any different to Man Utd being able to legitimately spend £90m on a substitute right winger who they then banish from their own squad.
 
I read today article (not on English so no point posting it) which says that City investigation will last at least 2 more years and that is highly unlikely that titles will be stripped. Mind blowing, feck football stuff if that is true.
 
adexkola said:
Why on earth would you go to Blue Moon?

They're lunatics on that side. And I don't use that word lightly.

One peek years ago scarred me for life. What's with their use of the word rags?
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Almost exclusively to gauge their reactions, and they were pretty much what I expected.

I’ve seen a couple of City fans on this forum that have admitted that they have probably done something wrong, but if baffles me how many are so certain that they are guilt free and that the world is against them.

They cheated to fast track their way to success, whether they were to get away with it or not how can they be so stupid to not at least see that’s what was happening.

As a consequence they have sky rocketed themselves to the top of world football, and can now sustain themselves without cheating to the point where it will be hard to top them.

They need to be punished and punished properly or football has lost the last bit of integrity it has left.
 
noodlehair said:
I think it was more the evidence being spewled all over the internet and then being made publicly available anyway due to the UEFA case, meaning the PL has to at least pretend to do something about it.
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But I think the UEFA case gave them an out that they didn’t take. And it would be a lot more than 115 if City didn’t stop cooperating, it’s only until 2018 or so, there will be severe punishment for that at least.
This may only be 10 points but it’s a legal shit show now, losing a 300m case would bankrupt the club and see them go down anyway. The public face of the league doesn’t end with 10 points with gives me hope. It would have been easy to just fine Everton to avoid all of this
 
Andycoleno9 said:
I read today article (not on English so no point posting it) which says that City investigation will last at least 2 more years and that is highly unlikely that titles will be stripped. Mind blowing, feck football stuff if that is true.
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At this rate, just be happy that citeh were not awarded extra 10 points deducted from Everton because they cooperated with the investigation.
 
noodlehair said:
Can you genuinely say Man Utd and Spurs are more interested in competing with City and winning the league than they are in making money?

Even if City operated fairly, a majority of the lower teams also aren't having 6 points stolen off them a season. It might mean that they don't get given £100m for Jack Grealish though. Or that they all get less money out of a TV deal if teams like City have to start pusing for the money to be distributed less evenly or go back to threatening the super league idea.

I think its a bit naive to think the big clubs aren't mainly on the same page. The front facing part (players, manager, etc.) want to compete and do well. Behind that its about money and status. Remember All of the big six were in on the super league idea and there would have been no benefit for any of them in terms of competing in the PL, because they wouldn't have been in it anymore...and every other team is effectively reliant on those big six for their own revenue.
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Whilst what you say has merit, the money these clubs get from City inflating the market is also redistributed at an inflated rate, so whoever it is they were pursuing now comes with a premium that would otherwise not be there. If they don't purchase players to replace what they've lost, they put themselves at risk, and as Leicester and Southampton have shown, there aren't many clubs in the PL who are perennial fixtures and safe in perpetuity. So ultimately, that £100m gets chopped down like it was the value it otherwise would be if City didn't break the market in the first place.

Their money is a net negative for everyone else - those competing with them directly have to spend so much more to buff their squads; the foreign market sees the PL as an easy buck-making exercise, which it is. Premiums and taxes for everything go up, as is intended by City as it gives them an advantage.

I'm sure clubs have to evaluate whether all of the above is worth it once everything is broken down. With regard to the TV deal, a smart rebrand takes full advantage of City being ousted.
 
Woodzy said:
Almost exclusively to gauge their reactions, and they were pretty much what I expected.

I’ve seen a couple of City fans on this forum that have admitted that they have probably done something wrong, but if baffles me how many are so certain that they are guilt free and that the world is against them.

They cheated to fast track their way to success, whether they were to get away with it or not how can they be so stupid to not at least see that’s what was happening.

As a consequence they have sky rocketed themselves to the top of world football, and can now sustain themselves without cheating to the point where it will be hard to top them.

They need to be punished and punished properly or football has lost the last bit of integrity it has left.
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I mean, there's a bit of selection bias in the type of City fan that would even choose to participate on this forum let alone last for an appreciable duration of time.

Online fandoms tend to be echo chambers with a healthy dose of persecution complex.
 
noodlehair said:
Who would be better off in terms of trophies and money without City? Maybe United, Arsenal and Liverpool? All three owned by private individuals who's primary concern is making money. And would it even benefit them that much? Man Utd haven't "competed" in the league for 10 years and they're still making plenty of money...well the owners are. Everyone else will get their TV money either way and their concern is more about maintaining the status quo and/or surviving in the PL, to which City are an insignificant factor. There is a bigger risk in rocking the boat and trying to force hand the bigger teams into playing by rules they don't want to, than there is in accepting that sometimes Man City, Chelsea, etc. might cheat financially, which to someone like Aston Villa isn't really any different to Man Utd being able to legitimately spend £90m on a substitute right winger who they then banish from their own squad.
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Anyone who has finished 5th in the league since city became top have lost a ton of money
 
There is no way Everton gets punished this harsly and City gets away with a few fines. Is there?

If they do I’m done with watching PL.
 
In the times of the Wrexham documentary, they’d probably get relegated to League 2, make a mental fairytale documentary. Nobody has ever won all four titles on the spin and they’d absolutely piss it.

Victory would be spun from the situation.
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
In the times of the Wrexham documentary, they’d probably get relegated to League 2, make a mental fairytale documentary. Nobody has ever won all four titles on the spin and they’d absolutely piss it.

Victory would be spun from the situation.
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It's an earner in itself. No doubt about it. Redemption arc ahoy and a PR exercise showing penance. Might even win them neutrals along the way.

They'd also boost viewing figures and TV deals for those leagues to unprecedented levels.
 
noodlehair said:
Who would be better off in terms of trophies and money without City? Maybe United, Arsenal and Liverpool? All three owned by private individuals who's primary concern is making money. And would it even benefit them that much? Man Utd haven't "competed" in the league for 10 years and they're still making plenty of money...well the owners are. Everyone else will get their TV money either way and their concern is more about maintaining the status quo and/or surviving in the PL, to which City are an insignificant factor. There is a bigger risk in rocking the boat and trying to force hand the bigger teams into playing by rules they don't want to, than there is in accepting that sometimes Man City, Chelsea, etc. might cheat financially, which to someone like Aston Villa isn't really any different to Man Utd being able to legitimately spend £90m on a substitute right winger who they then banish from their own squad.
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Our commercial revenues are beginning to suffer now, we're at a turning point where we need to start winning. Arsenal have long since slipped down the financial pecking order and Liverpool were nowhere until Klopp reinvigorated them. Success brings the money in and City are stealing that from everybody else.

For everybody else City have multiplied the risk factor. The 10m player you took a punt on is now a 50m player, and the debt you take on to fund that spirals in accordance. It makes the whole operation riskier for all clubs involved.

The Super League was created in response to that. You can play in our league but you will play by our rules.
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
In the times of the Wrexham documentary, they’d probably get relegated to League 2, make a mental fairytale documentary. Nobody has ever won all four titles on the spin and they’d absolutely piss it.

Victory would be spun from the situation.
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People got on the wrexham band wagon because ryan reynolds is a likeable bloke.

No one gives a feck about city. They won the treble last year and we still got more publicity for one player falling out with his manager.
 
NLunited said:
There is no way Everton gets punished this harsly and City gets away with a few fines. Is there?

If they do I’m done with watching PL.
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The Everton charge is the first because I understand that theirs was the most straightforward contravention.
Chelsea and Manchester City should be heard soon.
As you say, the Everton 10 points charge relates to about £20m.
So let's see what happens.
 
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