Overrated and injury prone, sell him in the summer.
12
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 29
- Clean sheets
- 8
- Goals
- 4
- Assists
- 0
- Yellow cards
- 3
- Red cards
- 1
Not a lesson he'll ever forget and overall when fit he's played well as a CB, so will be a welcome return especially if it means Carrick is able to fill in for Blind.
Paul Scholes was a striker. He was moved in CM and he went on with his job to become the best in England's CM of his generation. Pirlo did the same in Italy. The likes of Mattheus and Rijkaard move from midfield to defense.
We defend players too much these days. Instead of saying that Smalling should thank his lucky stars from moving from non league to Manchester United in such a short period of time we blame SAF for playing him in a slightly different position. Guess what? The CB role is a hell of a risky job and one mistake can ruin a player's confidence. Moving defenders a full back role is a decent way to give young defenders some football time without putting them under so much pressure. If Smalling had gone confused between defending as right back and defending as central back then maybe he should have never left Maidstone United in the first place.
We defend players too much these days. Instead of saying that Smalling should thank his lucky stars from moving from non league to Manchester United in such a short period of time we blame SAF for playing him in a slightly different position. Guess what? The CB role is a hell of a risky job and one mistake can ruin a player's confidence. Moving defenders a full back role is a decent way to give young defenders some football time without putting them under so much pressure. If Smalling had gone confused between defending as right back and defending as central back then maybe he should have never left Maidstone United in the first place.
The players you mention are all pretty special footballers in their own right. Not every footballer is as versatile as them. The full back and centre back positions at a top level club are very, very different. Many may be able to play both positions but clearly Smalling isn't that adaptable, to say he should be back in the conference because of it is horseshit.
Poor logic comparisons. Those players were moved to other roles primarily because it was felt they would excel in the new roles. As you said, CB is a risky and important position - a mistake at CB is far more costly than in other areas of the pitch usually.
Its not about "being confused between defending as RB and CB", its about getting actual first team football experience in the CB position. Do you seriously expect a player who has rarely and irregularly played at CB over the past 3 years, to instantly become consistent and experienced in that position? It just doesnt work. There is no doubt for me that by playing the likes of Jones and Smalling out of position he has hampered their development - we should have phased out Rio/Vidic earlier, and/or sent the youngsters on loan to a club where they would be getting regular gametime at CB.
Was absolutely furious with Smalling after his stupid sending off, but he is still the best central defender we have. Need to start him against Arsenal along with Thorpe. McNair has looked good, but Thorpe is the more experienced and better defender.
The key words that keep popping up in this thread are 'when fit.' The main problem is that he usually isn't.
Not really. Pirlo's career wasn't that great prior to him being moved in CM. Same as Scholes. He was considered as a promising player however he was moved in CM because they were question marks whether he had the physique to play upfront or not. Both Scholes and Pirlo took a rather challenging situation, they made the best out of it and guess what, they became special players in their own right.
They took the role for numerous reasons, which include technical characteristics (Pirlo wasn't really doing well upfront), physique (Scholes was considered too small to lead the line) or age was catching up. It was a matter of either adapting to this new role or risk not playing at top level anymore. Guess what? They took the challenge, they settled down immediately and became legends
Smalling has been at the club for 3 years, getting regular football at one of the finest clubs in the world. He worked alongside some of the very best defenders in the world. Is that so nerve wracking for poor Smalling to shift a couple of meters in the center?
Smalling is a natural centre back who was better defensively at right back than Rafael's usual standard. He is our best option defensively regardless of the injury situation and we should all be happy to have him available against Arsenal. Selecting him after two errors of judgement is a vote of confidence that I'm confident he will be worthy of.
Whilst I wouldn't go so far as to say he is better than Rafael at RB, I would agree that he is our best CB when fit. A mistake is a mistake and there are plenty of times when our CB's had to foul players and take yellows and reds because the fullbacks lost their man. We gave away so many pens in Evra's last year because he'd lose his man and force the CB to act. Smalling had to make the choice do I go in and risk another yellow or let him come in and possible score? He made the wrong choice, obviously, but it does not mean he's a bad player...
The comparisons really just dont stick. We are talking about young players who are expected to become good CBs in the future, not being given gametime in that position, and then being expected to walk straight into that position with no inconsistencies or mistakes.
Smalling in particular, has (until the City game) been one of our most consistent players - the City game was the first red card of his career, yet straight away the armchair fans jump on his back proclaiming that he has been average for years. He has been average playing at RB - yet we continued to play him there even though it was not working (to an extent)?
Again we arent talking about an established player being moved FROM their "natural" position, or an older player re-defining themselves a-la Giggs, we are talking about a youngster whose natural position was agreed to be at CB, and instead of being played there, they were played at RB, at a time in their career where they need to get regular gametime in order to develop.
Your comment about "shift a couple of meters in the center" is shockingly ignorant as well. Do you really think there is no difference in playing at CB and FB, at a club like United? Our FBs have always been an integral part of our attack, providing width and overlapping with wingers. Not quite the same.
What if we moved Vidic to right back, do you think he'd do a good job? Or manage to improve overall so when he's moved to centerhalf he looks natural and ready?
Sometimes players are only really right for one position.
If we then moved Vidic back in CB would he become shite because he hasn't played as a CB for some time?
I'm sorry but any young player whose development is hindered by being played out of position as he's coming through, isn't going to make it at the top level - it should be a good opportunity to develop new skills. Having said that, I don't think Smalling's done here by any means. Still a good defender in there waiting to come out.
I really don't like Smalling, if he's the best we've got then we're fecked, would rather flog him when we finally get some reinforcements in, for me Jones is the best we have.
Don't think Van Gaal really likes the look of Thorpe, is a bit sad that he hasn't been given a chance really.
I am not referring about his performance. I am talking about the concept that just because a player may not have played as much as he did in his natural role then that alone would sort of ruin him or keep him back from developing. It doesn't work that way. There had been a number of quality managers who moved their young defenders around through the years. Maldini was supposed to be a CB (a role which he still covered magnificently). He was moved as LB because of his young age then back to CB. It didn't hurt him one bit. Same as Giuseppe Bergomi who flirted from CB to RB. Do you think that the likes of SAF and Sacchi were shocking ignorant too or was SAF aiming to ruin poor little Smalling career for good?
And 'moving a few meters in the center' was exactly what Smalling did. He was never expected to play as the typical full back who ran up and down the flank creating chances, delivering crosses and causing problems to the opponents defense. No one expected him to be an Evra, a Maldini, a Zanetti or even a Gaz for all that matter. He was mainly just a CB playing on the right ie focusing on the defending part of the game. If shit hits fan Rio and Vidic would cover up for him. Not to forget Valencia whose pretty sound in defense too. I don't know what you think but I think that's one hell of opportunity for a young CB to learn from the best in a safe and relatively pressure free environment.
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Your point of view on this is just weird.
At any level of pretty much any sport, most players will take time in a certain position to be called truly proficient at it even if they've already been playing a similar one. Smalling in his time at CB has shown a lot more games than not that he is a quality CB and with benefit of more games there, could continue to improve though.
The red card against City though had nothing to do with being poor or due to lack of experience - it was a day of sheer stupidity, something even the best in the world have had.
The only thing to be concerned about is if he has the mental fortitude to put it behind him as a one off, as everyone here should be and move on.
My point is that a CB's development won't stall just because he had been moved to fullback to gain first team experience. Actually it would be much worse off if he didn't play at all and with Rio/Vidic in their prime that's exactly what would have happened if SAF saw him as just a CB
My god, I agree with devilish.
Me too.
The only way playing matches out of position could significantly hinder any footballers development would be if that was the only time they played football. Smalling will have been intensively coached and trained in central defence throughout his United career, where he was only ever an injury or two away from first choice from that position.
The only way playing matches out of position could significantly hinder any footballers development would be if that was the only time they played football. Smalling will have been intensively coached and trained in central defence throughout his United career, where he was only ever an injury or two away from first choice from that position.
O'Shea and Brown rarely had a settled position at United, being shunted from fullback to CB and to CM at times in O'shea's case never stopped them delivering at a respectably high level for us.
Well we appear to have reached an impassé then.
I for one think that if you take a young CB with potential, dont play them regularly at CB for a few years, then put them at CB without anyone with any experience alongside them, that they are going to make mistakes and at times, struggle.
Your examples all seem to be cases of existing players who HAVE played their natural positions (or what was seen as their natural position at the time) being moved to a secondary position - not a young, developing player NOT being played in their natural position, but rather their secondary position, then being expected to fit straight in in the primary position with no sort of transition.
Again I will refer you to the context - we had an established partnership of Rio and Vidic, both of whom were getting old. It was expected by lots of fans that Smalling and Jones would be the natural replacements. Therefore the simple thing to do is to phase in the youngsters, give them gametime playing alongside a veteran, especially in the easier fixtures. If they need to cover at RB now and then, so be it, but you give them gametime in the position you are expected them to end up playing, you give them a chance to understand the position in our team, and you partner them with an experienced player who can guide and instruct them. It isnt rocket science. Unfortunately, in SAFs final season(s) and Moyes' season, we did not do this, and suddenly both Rio and Vidic are gone and Smalling and Jones are expected to immediately replace them. Doesnt sound viable to me.
I take it that your views on Jones are identical, as he has stagnated in much the same way, and (in my opinion) as a result of the same issues as with Smalling (ie being played out of position when developing)?
Aren't you a funny fecker! Disregarding his brainfarts against City, he's been very solid defensively this season. Against Chelsea, his passing was even good-ish.
If it's been done in his early years as a senior player, then it's certainly possible.
Smalling simply never got the chance to mature enough as a centerhalf. If he had, then moving him to right back and then back to centerhalf shouldn't have made a big difference. But being moved in his formative years in the seniors is another story. Same goes for other defenders who have the build and abilities of a centerhalf and not a fullback.
Playing as right back was probably better for Smalling than not playing at all. But it might not have been the optimal thing he needed in order to fulfill his potential in the center.
While Young and Anderson are most likely done in this club, it's a time of defining moments for Smalling in Manchester United.
Perfect chance for him to prove something as Van Gaal planning serious reforms in this club.
Perfect chance for him to prove something as Van Gaal planning serious reforms in this club.
Thanks man.
He's been solid defensively? He's had one good performance and that was against Chelsea, he cost us the points against City, was poor against Leicester when he came on and before that I think he played in our defeat to Swansea and 30 minutes vs Sunderland if I am not mistaken, so I don't see any particularly solid performances this season at all barring one. Him, Evans and Jones have been given more than enough time to cut out the idiocy and get toughened up, all 3 are liabilities to getting a settled back 4 which is vital.Smalling so far has delivered very good performances at CB and at RB he has always been good defensively, just hasn't offered a lot going forward except for perhaps right at the start - which IMO is reason he kept getting put at RB because he didn't start off half bad going forward, just progressively got worse in that department for some reason.
His problem more than anything is staying fit than not getting enough time as CB.
I think he had/has fragile confidence anyway. Putting him at right back and thrusting the ball to him as he stood isolated on the byline just made it even worse.
However, you'd think it's still better than not playing at all. I guess it's on an individual by individual basis.
However, you'd think it's still better than not playing at all. I guess it's on an individual by individual basis.
I generally agree with devilish but imo all the good training in the world can't make up for the experience that is gained from playing week in and week out. I believe that this is the key factor for any player to reach his full potential.
The CB position is very difficult because almost all the time the direction of the ball is in favor of the attacker and the CB actually has to defend the space behind his back. So, good positioning and the ability to read the game and the opponent's off the ball movement from his deeper position are essential for any good CB. Imho you need gaming experience (unless you are Maldini) to develop this ability and this is why we still see CBs way beyond their 30's who have lost their pace but still manage to be competitive at top level.
I believe our CBs are good players, Smalling included. But good doesn't necessarily mean good enough for United. It's an interesting season we're going through with all three of our most experienced defenders out of the club. Smalling and all the others must cease the opportunity and show that they can lead the defense. I really like the fact that LvG has mentioned that he plans to use Smalling and Jones as CBs, they need that to build some confidence. Just look how confident Shaw looks on the pitch after having played two full seasons at LB for Southampton. By the end of the season we'll know if we're going to be looking for new defenders in the transfer market.
The CB position is very difficult because almost all the time the direction of the ball is in favor of the attacker and the CB actually has to defend the space behind his back. So, good positioning and the ability to read the game and the opponent's off the ball movement from his deeper position are essential for any good CB. Imho you need gaming experience (unless you are Maldini) to develop this ability and this is why we still see CBs way beyond their 30's who have lost their pace but still manage to be competitive at top level.
I believe our CBs are good players, Smalling included. But good doesn't necessarily mean good enough for United. It's an interesting season we're going through with all three of our most experienced defenders out of the club. Smalling and all the others must cease the opportunity and show that they can lead the defense. I really like the fact that LvG has mentioned that he plans to use Smalling and Jones as CBs, they need that to build some confidence. Just look how confident Shaw looks on the pitch after having played two full seasons at LB for Southampton. By the end of the season we'll know if we're going to be looking for new defenders in the transfer market.
I totally agree, and i would add players like Abidal, Thuram, Henry, Desailly or even Iniesta. In a way playing out of position developed other qualities in them.
Just a waste of time talking about his potential. If he's constantly injured, how can we expect him to improve. I really don't think United will have the patience to keep waiting for players like Evans, Smalling, Jones on a regular basis. It's not their fault of course, it just part of football but right now we need progression rather than stagnation and if it means cutting your losses and brining someone more able, then so be it.
Him and Jones have the talent i think, it's just a gamble for the club as to whether we get to see it. I remember Rio having issues with injuries early on (albeit he was much more talented and 3 times as costly) but he ultimately grew out of it until well into his thirties. Him and Jones were not only meant to take the baton from Rio and Vidic, they were supposed to usurp them. But as it was they were still lining up together in their mid-thirties against Sunderland at the end of last season, and here we are with a void to fill. If we're keeping one/both we will need to sign another.
Was he really played as a RB though? Was he expected to run up and down the flanks, causing damage to the opponent's defense while keeping an eye to the defensive side of the game? In my opinion Smalling was expected to be a more of a right sided center back. He focused more in the defensive part of the game and he did that knowing that if he committed any mistakes then probably Vidic, Rio or Valencia will cover his arse.
This tactic (ie moving a CB to other positions) has been around for longer then we think and had been instrumental in developing some of the greatest CBs around including Chiellini, Desailly and Thuram. It didn't hurt them one bit. CB is one hell of a stressful job and a bad game can cause repercussions which can even ruin someone's career (ex Prunier or Stepanovs). Would you put a CB who had less then 20 games at EPL level with the rest played at non league level in such stressful situation?
But Fergie did! When Smalling came in 2011 he played a lot of games at CB because, if I remember correctly, Rio had his back issues and missed a lot of games whilst Evans had a tough season. That was his best season for us and a lot of posters had him earmarked as Rio's eventual replacement as the ball playing CB, hard as it may be to believe right now. Remembering the player he was in that season I think it's easy to argue that the RB experiment didn't work out as well as we wanted. I still have high hopes for him though and that Chelsea display a few weeks back shows that all is not lost with him, the challenge with them as a trio is that they will never be fit enough to have that run of matches to build on and it's now in our best interests to get rid of two from that lot and replace them with more reliable players
Smalling is already good enough imo. He just needs to stay fit for 30+ games a season. People underrate him because he looked uncomfortable at full back. He's always played well at centre back.
If he does stay fit and gets a run of games at CB he will make a lot of people in this thread look very stupid.
If he does stay fit and gets a run of games at CB he will make a lot of people in this thread look very stupid.
Look, injuries have probably played a bigger role in Smalling's stalled career. As far as positioning, the answer is - maybe. But mentioning all those names who gained by playing at full back is meaningless. Some players can be more versatile, some cannot. It doesn't mean they can't be brilliant in one role whoch is the thing that counts.
Its really not a question of versatility. Its about giving young CBs the experience they need without risking having them making those catastrophic mistakes which may cost their respective club some important honors or/and impact their confidence.
Regarding your first part. I can't really pinpoint why Smalling's career stalled or/and if it will be back on track anytime soon. The truth is that young defenders are unpredictable. I've lost count of how many Italian young defenders were hailed the new Maldini. Even our own SAF made a Hansen like argument once when he said that if Rio is worth 18m then Wes is worth 30m. It didn't really worked that way isn't it?
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That's true. Sometimes players - centerhalves or in other positions - just stall for whatever reason. John O'Shea and Phil Neville looked like world beaters early on, but never became the players many thought they could. Funnily enough some would say it was moving them between positions that did it, though I think they were moved after they already struggled to build on the platform they got as full backs.
I kind of agree with you. I don't think playing Smalling at RB should hamper him all that much. What he should have gained was more composure on the ball in tight situations and better short passing, although probably losing some long range passing in the process. It may even have helped with his acceleration as he was forced to go toe to toe with speedy wingers.
I'm not even sure he's stalled at all. I think he's still a very good defender, but he rarely has five games in a row due to injuries or a major brain feck-up. Let's hope he can stay injury free for the next ten matches and judge him then. If he doesn't improve or show consistency by January, then even I'm starting to think that we might need someone else.