You're trying to excuse a red-card offense with some romantic notion this is what great defenders do, when the reality is great defenders don't get caught out like that in the first place, and even if they did, their first instinct is not to do something that could reduce their side to ten men.Nope, he's a great one, because it's not like great defenders don't lose focus, they do, but they manage the situation by their awareness and quickness of thought.
That's the sign of a great defender, that a lapse in concentration does not result in anything substantial for the opposition.
You're trying to excuse a red-card offense with some romantic notion this is what great defenders do, when the reality is great defenders don't get caught out like that in the first place, and even if they did, their first instinct is not to do something that could reduce their side to ten men.
Likewise, acting as if it's just another foul doesn't make it so. I've outlined why it is easily a potential red card, you've done nothing of the sort to say why it isn't.It’s not a red card offence. Repeatedly calling it one won’t make that claim any less wrong.
I don't know if you lot are being purposely obtuse or just don't understand what kind of damage that can do to the human body. You don't need shoulder pads to make a mess of someone with a horse collar tackle.
And shirt-pulling from the neck down is not seen regularly in football.
So you think serious damage cannot be caused by horse collaring a piece of material that's around a person's neck, is that what you're saying?Of course you do. Yanking on flimsy shirt material isn’t remotely comparable to grabbing hold of a set of shoulder pads.
So you think serious damage cannot be caused by horse collaring a piece of material that's around a person's neck, is that what you're saying?
Saka lands in a different way and it's a wholly different discussion.
I don't know if you lot are being purposely obtuse or just don't understand what kind of damage that can do to the human body. You don't need shoulder pads to make a mess of someone with a horse collar tackle.
And shirt-pulling from the neck down is not seen regularly in football.
No. Overall he's just not on the level of the Baresi, Scirea, Maldini, Nesta, Cannavaro, Vierchowood, Bergomi. But he does have a claim for being the best of the rest. And winning these euros cements him as a legendMy son was asking me the same question. Will people talk about him in a few years like they talk about Maldini now? I said maybe.
It’s not a red card offence. Repeatedly calling it one won’t make that claim any less wrong.
If you don't see that as excessive force then you're saying to players that is the new normal.... I'm pretty sure UEFA and FIFA, and even the FA will not want that happening in the game, from grassroots up.. That is what we're now going to see. little Johnny in under 7/8/9s being choked by his shirt and their parents/grandparents watch.
It's a professional foul by Chiellini, no attempt to get the ball and committed as he had no other choice, that's how I see it as a yellow, the rules are pretty clear. This wasn't a shirt pull to gain an advantage to try and get in from of Saka, he simply wanted to stop the kid advancing. Having said that I don't think it was overly dangerous, but processional fouls have clear repercussions laid out in the rules, if Saka had been closer to the goal with a chance to shot, it would have been a red.
This isn’t a new thing. Shirt pulling has been part of football forever. At every level. Even kids football.
Because you see horse collar tackles regularly in football, or even the NFL or rugby? And there's no reason at all it's become an international meme? If it were a common thing there wouldn't be the uproar about it that there has been. Collaring someone can easily be seen as violent conduct.
"The horse-collar tackle is an American football maneuver in which a defender tackles another player by grabbing the back collar or the back-inside of an opponent's shoulder pads and pulling the ball carrier directly downward violently in order to pull his feet from underneath him. The technique is most closely associated with Pro Bowl safety Roy Williams.
After being blamed for a series of major injuries in the 2004 season, the horse-collar tackle was banned from the NFLduring the 2005 off-season. The rule forbidding it is often referred to in the press as "The Roy Williams Rule".[1] The rule, with modifications, was adopted in college football in 2008 and high school football in 2009."
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Risks[edit]
The horse-collar is particularly dangerous due to the awkward position of the player being tackled, who will often fall backward in a twisting motion with one or both legs trapped under the weight of his body. This is exacerbated if the player's foot gets caught in the turf and by the additional weight of the defender. Potential injuries include sprains or tears to ligaments in the knees and ankles (including the ACL and MCL), and fractures of the tibia and fibula.[3] Smith, for instance, was effectively sidelined for two seasons after a horse-collar tackle by Williams broke his right tibia.
The ban states that a horse-collar tackle is an open-field tackle in which a defender uses the shoulder pads or jersey to immediately bring a ball carrier down. The term "open field" means that horse-collar tackles committed near the line of scrimmage will be allowed."
If you think a 'tackle' that has a full wiki page and a breakdown of the potential damage it can cause is not potentially red-worthy then you either haven't considered the potential fallout from it, or you don't care to. Saka being left in a broken heap would've engendered a different response from some who found the foul to be amusing and 'just Chiellini, the lovable rogue'.
It's a very easy red for another ref. Antics like that should not be condoned or marked down to nothing serious.
Difficult to say. Chiellini is a genuinely great defender. Bonucci is a good defender but no more than that, but his quality on the ball is so great that it adds so much to his team's attack...Who is better of the two in everyone's opinion? And what tier of all-time Italy team do they make assuming 2 CBs? They've honestly had about 10-15 all-time CBs so I find it hard to place them. Thinking 3rd or 4th team, which is crazy considering they'd be most nations's greatest defenders.
I'm well aware what happens at grass roots level as a ref and coach, and how parents respond and it's discussed at club and league levels. There is shirt pulling and there is dragging someone off their feet with excessive force.
That’s correct. And referees will often miss/ignore minor shirt pulling. If anyone is ever pulled off their feet by their shirt then it’s a yellow card. Which is exactly what happened here. A yellow card is the correct punishment.
last man doesn't really mean anything. it wasn't a goal scoring opportunity for Saka.My initial thought was a red for that shirt pull. But I guess it's hard to prove Chiellini was the last man from near the halfway line..
It's a strange rationale; I'm not sure how you go from minor pull and nothing to excessive force and yellow..
last man doesn't really mean anything. it wasn't a goal scoring opportunity for Saka.
Same way a referee makes a call about any ‘normal’ foul vs one that deserves a booking. Not strange at all.
If anyone can show me an example at top level football where a player has been sent of for pulling a shirt (for violent conduct, not stopping a goalscoring opportunity), I'd be impressed.
Yeah I’d agree with that. If the ref gave a red for violent conduct I wouldn’t really argue with it, but a couple of inches down the jersey and it wouldn’t be.True.. it was just too far from goal to be considered a good opportunity. I watched some of the clips above again, and it looks like Saka was well covered even if he wasn't fouled.
Yellow is correct.
Whereas, id be impressed if you can find a video in major European comp with the same excessive force.
Whereas, id be impressed if you can find a video in major European comp with the same excessive force.
People get hauled down by their shirts all the time. Hell sometimes you'll get full on rugby tackles to stop an attack.
I don't know if you lot are being purposely obtuse or just don't understand what kind of damage that can do to the human body. You don't need shoulder pads to make a mess of someone with a horse collar tackle.
And shirt-pulling from the neck down is not seen regularly in football.
There’s not a referee on the planet who would give a red card for a shirt pull, other than denying a clear goal-scoring opportunity. That’s the only possible reason Chiellini could have seen red. Implying it was a violent enough foul to send him off is ridiculous.
You clearly have no idea what a horse collar can do, as I thought.Footballer in falling down horror injury. Won’t someone think of the children!
Shirt pulling has probably the lowest risk of injury of any foul in football. It’s bizarre the way you’ve decided this is now morally equivalent to Keane on Haaland.
Thanks for the video though. The thumbnail neatly illustrates how absurd it is to compare pulling on shirt material that stretches like that with yanking on a set of shoulder pads.
Stop being obtuse, please.Almost every tackle that is made on a football pitch can "potentially" result in a serious injury, jumping for headers and clashing heads can result in a broken nose or even a hemorrhage.
Does not mean they're red card offences.
