Chess discussions

[JPRouve]

Today's game should have been won by a 2750+ GM with or without the engine. Gukesh has an almost +2 advantage including time advantage.

+2 advantage is only relevant for stockfish. You are essentially making my point about people using eval bars wrongfully.

 

[2mufc0]

That's true. it's only advantage if you make the engine moves to follow, obviously no chess player even Magnus Carlsen is capable of that.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

+2 advantage is only relevant for stockfish. You are essentially making my point about people using eval bars wrongfully.

Well, if it's a minor advantage of say 0-5 to 1 where essentially you need a lot of accurate moves/engine lines to get the win eventually it's understandable.

Someone like Magnus wins today's game 10/10 times. Probably what differentiates him from the rest. +2 is an advantage where you can and should win with a couple of inaccuracies on the way too, so you dont need to be stockfish precise.

I get your point in general about engine lines and the viewers/commentators sounding more intelligent due to them, but today's game doesn't fall under that bracket IMO.

 

[JPRouve]

That's true. it's only advantage if you make the engine moves to follow, obviously no chess player even Magnus Carlsen is capable of that.

And it also assumes that the opponents next move is the top engine line. That's why in many games you can see stockfish go from one end to the other without anyone actually blundering. If both players play reasonable human moves, the position and the evaluation changes.

And to be perfectly clear. Engine vs engine doesn't even get these type of advantages often until the end game where it is still almost always a draw.

 

[JPRouve]

Well, if it;s a minor advantage of say 0-5 to 1 where essentially you need a lot of accurate moves/engine lines to get the win eventually it's understandable.

Someone like Magnus wins today's games 10/10 times. Probably what differentiates him from the rest. +2 is an advantage where you can and should win with a couple of inaccuracies on the way too, so you dont need to be stockfish precise.

I get your point in general about engine lines and the viewers/commentators sounding more intelligent due to them, but today's game doesn't fall under that bracket IMO.

No, it's not how it works. All the advantages are only relevant for engines whether it is 0.1 or 200. And the eval bar is actually only useful as long as the player in question is within prep or if he studied that particular pattern and all the combinations linked to it. But in reality when you are in the middle game of a game that has never actually been played like today, the players are entirely using their human brains, the eval bar is totally worthless when it comes to predict whether one of them should be winning or losing in that context. What is actually relevant is what other GMs and super GMs calculate and also the style of each GMs, they don't thrive in the same situations.

Regarding the last point today just before we reached the end game, I was convinced that the position with black would never be lost by Magnus, Nakamura, Caruana, So or Erigaisi in normal form because it's the kind of positions they turn into draws all the time. As for Magnus, he is unique there is no else like him, if you get into an endgame and his pawn structure is playable then you will likely lose, he isn't an example of what a "normal" super GM is.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

All the advantages are only relevant for engines whether it is 0.1 or 200. And the eval bar is actually only useful as long as the player in question is within prep or if he studied that particular pattern and all the combinations linked to it.

That is really generalizing IMO.

Watched the game end at end today all 5 hours and not a single person be a GM commentating on the game or your average viewer felt it was a position he wont win from. It was that strong a position for him.

Will not debate this to death, but as someone who loves watching classical games end to end over the years, I know what you mean by absurd engine lines making things seem easier than they are. But today wasnt one such game for sure, in my eyes at least.

 

[2mufc0]

Yeah Gukesh had the advantage but it wasn't a considerable one. He made some bad moves under time pressure (that's why he's not a particularly strong rapid/blitz player), but it's wasn't clear cut.

Yeah Magnus would have converted that position but that's why he's the GOAT.

 

[JPRouve]

That is really generalizing IMO.

Watched the game end at end today all 5 hours and not a single person be a GM commentating on the game or your average viewer felt it was a position he wont win from. It was that strong a position for him.

Will not debate this to death, but as someone who loves watching classical games end to end over the years, I know what you mean by absurd engine lines making things seem easier than they are. But today wasnt one such game for sure, in my eyes at least.

I also watched it and no one actually had a clear tactic to win, in fact during the press conference the key move that was suggested to Gukesh was described by Nakamura, Danya and Leko as not a human move. Your eyes are influenced by the eval bar and +2.

With that end game, I can see some super GMs win with white but we are talking about the actual freaks and they would have to be at their very best.

Just listen to what Magnus say here about this end game:

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I also watched it and no one actually had a clear tactic to win, in fact during the press conference the key move that was suggested to Gukesh was described by Nakamura, Danya and Leko as not a human move. Your eyes are influenced by the eval bar and +2.

With that end game, I can see some super GMs win with white but we are talking about the actual freaks and they would have to be at their very best.

Just listen to what Magnus say here about this end game:

Will try to catch the recaps tomorrow

Eitherways, didnt know there was a chess thread here, good to bump into. Cheers,