Chess discussions

[JPRouve]

Today's game should have been won by a 2750+ GM with or without the engine. Gukesh has an almost +2 advantage including time advantage.

+2 advantage is only relevant for stockfish. You are essentially making my point about people using eval bars wrongfully.

 

[2mufc0]

That's true. it's only advantage if you make the engine moves to follow, obviously no chess player even Magnus Carlsen is capable of that.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

+2 advantage is only relevant for stockfish. You are essentially making my point about people using eval bars wrongfully.

Well, if it's a minor advantage of say 0-5 to 1 where essentially you need a lot of accurate moves/engine lines to get the win eventually it's understandable.

Someone like Magnus wins today's game 10/10 times. Probably what differentiates him from the rest. +2 is an advantage where you can and should win with a couple of inaccuracies on the way too, so you dont need to be stockfish precise.

I get your point in general about engine lines and the viewers/commentators sounding more intelligent due to them, but today's game doesn't fall under that bracket IMO.

 

[JPRouve]

That's true. it's only advantage if you make the engine moves to follow, obviously no chess player even Magnus Carlsen is capable of that.

And it also assumes that the opponents next move is the top engine line. That's why in many games you can see stockfish go from one end to the other without anyone actually blundering. If both players play reasonable human moves, the position and the evaluation changes.

And to be perfectly clear. Engine vs engine doesn't even get these type of advantages often until the end game where it is still almost always a draw.

 

[JPRouve]

Well, if it;s a minor advantage of say 0-5 to 1 where essentially you need a lot of accurate moves/engine lines to get the win eventually it's understandable.

Someone like Magnus wins today's games 10/10 times. Probably what differentiates him from the rest. +2 is an advantage where you can and should win with a couple of inaccuracies on the way too, so you dont need to be stockfish precise.

I get your point in general about engine lines and the viewers/commentators sounding more intelligent due to them, but today's game doesn't fall under that bracket IMO.

No, it's not how it works. All the advantages are only relevant for engines whether it is 0.1 or 200. And the eval bar is actually only useful as long as the player in question is within prep or if he studied that particular pattern and all the combinations linked to it. But in reality when you are in the middle game of a game that has never actually been played like today, the players are entirely using their human brains, the eval bar is totally worthless when it comes to predict whether one of them should be winning or losing in that context. What is actually relevant is what other GMs and super GMs calculate and also the style of each GMs, they don't thrive in the same situations.

Regarding the last point today just before we reached the end game, I was convinced that the position with black would never be lost by Magnus, Nakamura, Caruana, So or Erigaisi in normal form because it's the kind of positions they turn into draws all the time. As for Magnus, he is unique there is no else like him, if you get into an endgame and his pawn structure is playable then you will likely lose, he isn't an example of what a "normal" super GM is.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

All the advantages are only relevant for engines whether it is 0.1 or 200. And the eval bar is actually only useful as long as the player in question is within prep or if he studied that particular pattern and all the combinations linked to it.

That is really generalizing IMO.

Watched the game end at end today all 5 hours and not a single person be a GM commentating on the game or your average viewer felt it was a position he wont win from. It was that strong a position for him.

Will not debate this to death, but as someone who loves watching classical games end to end over the years, I know what you mean by absurd engine lines making things seem easier than they are. But today wasnt one such game for sure, in my eyes at least.

 

[2mufc0]

Yeah Gukesh had the advantage but it wasn't a considerable one. He made some bad moves under time pressure (that's why he's not a particularly strong rapid/blitz player), but it's wasn't clear cut.

Yeah Magnus would have converted that position but that's why he's the GOAT.

 

[JPRouve]

That is really generalizing IMO.

Watched the game end at end today all 5 hours and not a single person be a GM commentating on the game or your average viewer felt it was a position he wont win from. It was that strong a position for him.

Will not debate this to death, but as someone who loves watching classical games end to end over the years, I know what you mean by absurd engine lines making things seem easier than they are. But today wasnt one such game for sure, in my eyes at least.

I also watched it and no one actually had a clear tactic to win, in fact during the press conference the key move that was suggested to Gukesh was described by Nakamura, Danya and Leko as not a human move. Your eyes are influenced by the eval bar and +2.

With that end game, I can see some super GMs win with white but we are talking about the actual freaks and they would have to be at their very best.

Just listen to what Magnus say here about this end game:

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I also watched it and no one actually had a clear tactic to win, in fact during the press conference the key move that was suggested to Gukesh was described by Nakamura, Danya and Leko as not a human move. Your eyes are influenced by the eval bar and +2.

With that end game, I can see some super GMs win with white but we are talking about the actual freaks and they would have to be at their very best.

Just listen to what Magnus say here about this end game:

Will try to catch the recaps tomorrow

Eitherways, didnt know there was a chess thread here, good to bump into. Cheers,

 

[Kasper]

Ding now spent over one hour on his first 5 moves, bit of a ridiculous hole to dug yourself in.

 

[JPRouve]

Ding now spent over one hour on his first 5 moves, bit of a ridiculous hole to dug yourself in.

It's not. Ding is a calculator and he is also an elite speed chess player. He doesn't calculate one move at a time, that's why he generally starts blitzing while being freakishly accurate.

 

[2mufc0]

Yeah he's been playing like this the whole match, hasn't seemed to have cost him that badly yet. He's clealry playing for draws and hoping to take Gukesh in rapid.

 

[Kasper]

It's not. Ding is a calculator and he is also an elite speed chess player. He doesn't calculate one move at a time, that's why he generally starts blitzing while being freakishly accurate.

I know the different elements of time usage, there are reasons to take your time rethinking previous matches of your opponent and taking the opening slowly. Just being an elite blitz player (all of these guys are) doesn't justify wasting 50% of your time in the early opening phase. There's taking your time and there's bad decision making. If you're worried about your opponents opening don't go into the d4,c5 line.
He's been lucky that Gukesh messed up not going c6 so he might escape once again but he has literally lost on time this match before.

 

[JPRouve]

I know the different elements of time usage, there are reasons to take your time rethinking previous matches of your opponent and taking the opening slowly. Just being an elite blitz player (all of these guys are) doesn't justify wasting 50% of your time in the early opening phase. There's taking your time and there's bad decision making. If you're worried about your opponents opening don't go into the d4,c5 line.
He's been lucky that Gukesh messed up not going c6 so he might escape once again but he has literally lost on time this match before.

And why do you decide that he is wasting time or that it's bad decision making?

 

[Kasper]

And why do you decide that he is wasting time or that it's bad decision making?

Because these 5 moves were theory. There's no argument taking an hour for 5 moves of theory. I'm not arguing you should always blitz out the first couple of moves, there's value in taking your time to consider the positional outcome of certain lines but you shouldn't get to one hour lower than your opponent just because of that.
I'm not even a big "always be up on time" guy, Magnus was down on time against Nepo in basically every match in the 2021 WC but I was never worried about that. But there's no value in taking an hour time to play the first 5 moves.

 

[JPRouve]

Because these 5 moves were theory. There's no argument taking an hour for 5 moves of theory. I'm not arguing you should always blitz out the first couple of moves, there's value in taking your time to consider the positional outcome of certain lines but you shouldn't get to one hour lower than your opponent just because of that.
I'm not even a big "always be up on time" guy, Magnus was down on time against Nepo in basically every match in the 2021 WC but I was never worried about that. But there's no value in taking an hour time to play the first 5 moves.

But those 5 moves don't lead to the same structure, they don't lead to the same strategy. It makes 100% sense for someone like Ding to take his time, familiarize himself with all the main options, maybe choose his preferred one and then play fast. It makes even more sense when it is his M.O.

The reality is that you are worried for no reasons, because you have seen Ding operate in that way more often than not and outside of this year, he is pretty much the second or third best player in the world in all formats.

 

[17Larsson]

This is getting interesting now

 

[Kasper]

But those 5 moves don't lead to the same structure, they don't lead to the same strategy. It makes 100% sense for someone like Ding to take his time, familiarize himself with all the main options, maybe choose his preferred one and then play fast. It makes even more sense when it is his M.O.

The reality is that you are worried for no reasons, because you have seen Ding operate in that way more often than not and outside of this year, he is pretty much the second or third best player in the world in all formats.

I think you're hellbent on distinguishing yourself from the "just watching the eval bar and time" crowd and justify players decisions for the sake of it. You can't just enter any sort of middle game with the mindset "I'll play fast after familiarizing myself with the opening lines". There's taking time and there's losing the plot. If one hour for the first five moves is acceptable why not take 1:59 hours for the first 10 and play bullet afterwards? There's always some sort of grey area of reasonable time management and Ding has been pushing the line just too much this World championship.
Funnily enough he almost got bailed out again today but this was a long time coming.

 

[JPRouve]

I think you're hellbent on distinguishing yourself from the "just watching the eval bar and time" crowd and justify players decisions for the sake of it. You can't just enter any sort of middle game with the mindset "I'll play fast after familiarizing myself with the opening lines". There's taking time and there's losing the plot. If one hour for the first five moves is acceptable why not take 1:59 hours for the first 10 and play bullet afterwards? There's always some sort of grey area of reasonable time management and Ding has been pushing the line just too much this World championship.
Funnily enough he almost got bailed out again today but this was a long time coming.

Noted.

 

[sullydnl]

For what it's worth, Hikaru also said the time Ding spent on the opening was "unacceptable".

 

[altodevil]

Hikaru says a lot of things

 

[JPRouve]

For what it's worth, Hikaru also said the time Ding spent on the opening was "unacceptable".

He says that nearly all the time and if a mistake is made, he will say that X should have spent 30 or 40 minutes calculating instead of rushing. And my point is that players have different styles and tendencies, Ding calculates for long periods of time and then plays very fast for long stretches, the same is true for Grischuk, others like Hikaru or Nepo seem to play rapid chess all the time.

 

[sullydnl]

He says that nearly all the time and if a mistake is made, he will say that X should have spent 30 or 40 minutes calculating instead of rushing. And my point is that players have different styles and tendencies, Ding calculates for long periods of time and then plays very fast for long stretches, the same is true for Grischuk, others like Hikaru or Nepo seem to play rapid chess all the time.

Ding's explanation for the time spent was that he couldn't remember the good lines, spent his time calculating the knight move, but then was suprised again by the next move meaning his time went nowhere and his calculations were "nonsense". An explanation Carlsen in his recap described as "kind of ridiculous in a Game 11 of a World Championship", saying he didn't really know what calculation Ding was talking about.

So whatever about Ding's stylistic tendencies, the general consensus in this particular case seems to be that he badly botched his time management in the opening.

 

[paulscholes18]

For what it's worth, Hikaru also said the time Ding spent on the opening was "unacceptable".

Being out of prep by move 4 was a joke.

 

[paulscholes18]

Much more like it from Ding today.

 

[DouLou]

Nothing more painful than watching comments from people purely based on engine evaluation on Reddit. Urgh. Ding just played .. a6 and has an IQP which is a long term weakness, but my gut says ding will draw this if he makes time control without blundering

 

[2mufc0]

That Rook F8 move under that much time pressure was something else.

 

[JPRouve]

Ding messed up!

 

[harms]

Tuned into the final game from time to time and thought for sure that it was a dead draw but managed to tune in right at the crucial moment.
Poor Ding, but I was rooting for Gukesh a little bit.

 

[2mufc0]

Crazy that Ding lost that, what a blunder. Fair play to Gukesh he kept going.

 

[2mufc0]

I don't know how others feel, but the shadow of Magnus lingers over both Ding's and now Gukesh's wins, of course they can only beat the player infront of them and deserve their wins, but i have little doubt Magnus would beat both in classical format. One of the few individual sports where the best player is still active but not 'world champion'.

 

[harms]

I don't know how others feel, but the shadow of Magnus lingers over both Ding's and now Gukesh's wins, of course they can only beat the player infront of them and deserve their wins, but i have little doubt Magnus would beat both in classical format. One of the few individual sports where the best player is still active but not 'world champion'.

I think pretty much everyone feels that. It's not even a given that Ding or Gukesh are actually the best of the rest, probably not (but they got to the final by merit so it's a moot point) but Magnus is still clearly ahead of both (and everyone else).

 

[JPRouve]

I don't know how others feel, but the shadow of Magnus lingers over both Ding's and now Gukesh's wins, of course they can only beat the player infront of them and deserve their wins, but i have little doubt Magnus would beat both in classical format. One of the few individual sports where the best player is still active but not 'world champion'.

I share that sentiment but it's more than Carlsen, neither of them are the best or second best player in the world in December 2024. They both deserved to challenge for it due to how the system work but to me it was always clear that neither were the best of the rest. Now in a way that's why I find Chess so interesting to follow, outside of Carlsen there is constantly a dozen of players that are genuinely good and depending on form the current best change very quickly.

 

[altodevil]

Fair play to Ding though - I honestly expected him to be dominated, but he performed really well. Blunder aside.

 

[altodevil]

Gukesh earned that spot on merit - quoting rating as a reason for him not being a worthy champion is nonsense. Caruana and Hikaru choked at the candidates. Carlsen obviously still top dog. Wonder if he'd organise a showmatch with Gukesh...

 

[2mufc0]

I think pretty much everyone feels that. It's not even a given that Ding or Gukesh are actually the best of the rest, probably not (but they got to the final by merit so it's a moot point) but Magnus is still clearly ahead of both (and everyone else).

I share that sentiment but it's more than Carlsen, neither of them are the best or second best player in the world in December 2024. They both deserved to challenge for it due to how the system work but to me it was always clear that neither were the best of the rest. Now in a way that's why I find Chess so interesting to follow, outside of Carlsen there is constantly a dozen of players that are genuinely good and depending on form the current best change very quickly.

Good points too, there are also a bunch of players that can beat each other then you have MC further ahead. It does make it more interesting though.

 

[JPRouve]

On a side note, I totally agree with Carlsen and the format of the World Championship should be modernized with the inclusion of other time controls.

I wonder if any of you have an idea about you would like it to be?

 

[altodevil]

On a side note, I totally agree with Carlsen and the format of the World Championship should be modernized with the inclusion of other time controls.

Only if there remained a World Classical Chess Champion. You could maybe invite the blitz, rapid, classical, (fischer?) champions to one event. Some kind of mixed round robin. I could see it.

 

[JPRouve]

Only if there remained a World Classical Chess Champion. You could maybe invite the blitz, rapid, classical, (fischer?) champions to one event. Some kind of mixed round robin. I could see it.

I was more thinking about a World Chess Championship that adds the SCC format to a number of classical games.

 

[altodevil]

I was more thinking about a World Chess Championship that adds the SCC format to a number of classical games.

I already think the blitz/rapid tiebreaks are stupid, so I don't agree. Classical should be solely classical. If you want to determine the overall 'best' chess player, then sure have a mixture of formats (although I'd argue fischer random would suffice).