I get the pre season thing which is why I would have given leeway for so so results (said as much in the summer and people accused me of preparing excuses early) but what I'm really struggling with is the way we play, we look like absolute strangers out there, we've also had three midweeks off in recent weeks (including two on the spin leading up to Fulham) so that was more than enough time to work on ideas in the training ground but if anything we've got worse. Also when Pep and Klopp were struggling along with a clear blueprint on the pitch they were explaining their philosophy which a combination of both would have given fans clear belief the situation would get better, when Lamps is tasked with a similar explanation all he can give is (paraphrasing) we have to work hard.
Chelsea 2020/21 - General discussion
- Thread starter duffer
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I just think if we look at Lampard and the period he's been the manager in isolation, it becomes quite difficult for me to believe he should definitely be sacked. We hired him knowing he was a rookie with no experience to speak of. We hired him accepting that he was going to have to learn on the job, and it wasn't going to be smooth sailing. We hired him knowing he was essentially the manager version of the academy players who needs to experience bad situations in order to learn from them and that he's going to have to do it dealing with restrictions and situations no previous Chelsea manager has ever had to deal with. We have definitely regressed, we're not playing with any kind of conviction or intensity, players have either not improved or regressed - I get all of the reasons people want to replace him with Tuchel or Nagelsmann, and maybe the club didn't expect the dips in form to be this bad, but as I said, it seems unfair to hire him knowing a lot of these things and then fire him because the things they knew would happen, happened.
Anybody still think that Lampard is somehow treated better than Ole?
The person you quoted is talking about treatment by fans.
I said this in another thread but is this the first time in over a decade Chelsea don't have a world-class player? Seems like they have always had that one player to two to be envious of but at the moment it just doesn't feel like it. They have some good players sure, but no one top-level unless I'm forgetting someone.
Kante was the last one and he has declined, so you're not totally wrong.
Ziyech is basically not far off Bruno level imo, but it was clear once Hazard left we had to build a new team. Spent way too long relying on his individual talent, whilst buying average squad fillers who we have since struggled to shift.
Yeh, I was thinking Ziyech is probably the most likely to kick on (not sure I'd say he's near Bruno level though currently). I guess there's still the chance either one of your new signings starts to settle in or someone steps up (maybe Pulisic?). I do feel like most great teams have at least 1-2 top players though who can elevate the rest. It could be that Chelsea still has to recruit them in to kick on and compete.
I don't think Ziyech is on Bruno level, Bruno influences alot of our games. Its not just the goals / assists he brings which is amazing on its own, he lifts the whole team, not sure Ziyech does that.
Bruno's leadership qualities is what sets him apart from players.
Bruno came into an average team and transformed it. Ziyech has not been as influential as I thought he would be.
Ziyech basically Bruno's level
There's no one on Bruno's level, he stands alone, he's not even from this planet
Ziyech isn't "basically not far off Bruno level" (whatever that means) but he's a very good player, sure. Wouldn't count him as world class though.
Ziyech basically Bruno's level
There's no one on Bruno's level, he stands alone, he's not even from this planet
To be fair I think Ziyech was on par with Bruno's current level during Ajax's run to the CL semis, but he's certainly nowhere near replicating that type of form at the moment.
Looks like they've been paid off as Lampard and now Jody Morris are saying nice things...
Yeah that's the goal. I don't think anybody would confuse us with a great team. We're a work in progress with a lot of talented pieces.
Yeah fair enough, I was just talking about his footballing ability. There are of course other intangibles that sets Bruno apart, but I don't think it's some kind of insult to Bruno, as others are trying to imply, to suggest someone as talented as Ziyech isn't far off Bruno's talent.
Dutch league vs PL though
Thats why Bruno stands alone, no one thought he'd be able to replicate the numbers he was getting in Portugal he has and then some
So, if you're the new manager, what's the starting XI tommorow?
I was actually thinking this when I saw that Tuchel may be in charge for the game.
How do you assess the squad in one day? Be interesting to see what team he picks.
Apparently he is a fan of Kepa? not sure how true that is.
I would imagine Thiago, Chilwell, Havertz, ZIyech, Werner will all start.
Where have you seen that? Re Kepa.
It appears he likes Rudiger unfortunately but seen nothing about Kepa, he surely wouldn't be that stupid.
Yeah definitely true but Ziyech was also incredible in the CL.
Fully agreed though, Bruno is some sort of alien.
Hopefully he picks Gilmour as he has previous with diminutive spiky deep-lying playmakers.
I'll be interested to see if he goes with something similar to the 4-2-2-2 he favoured at PSG last season - Kante / Gilmour is a reasonable approximation of Gueye / Verratti.
Love the little fella. I hope they both land on their feet at a good club, together or otherwise.
Yeah fair play to him, thought he was going to have a similar trajectory to Arshavin (explosive first few months after a January transfer but then settles to 'just' a good player) even thought VDB would outperform him. Guess we've all been there...
I think Jody has made it clear he's sticking with Frank indefinitely, he'd have probably stuck around with Edwards and Barry else.
We've kept a couple of the coaches in place (Barry and Edwards) do you'd imagine they'll have some input when Tuchel rocks up at training this afternoon.
I'd personally pick a similar side to Sundays, with Mendy, Silva and Chilwell coming in for Kepa, Emerson and Christensen.
Tuchel will probably drop Gilmour for Kante as well.
I was listening to something on Youtube and some mentioned it, like I said, I am not sure lets see what he does.
I think he will go with experience at this stage, a bit more conservative.
Lampard started the season with 4-2-2-2 and shelved it very quickly. Be interesting to see how players like Mount, Gilmour, James, CHO get on with Tuchel.
Yeah and he also tried playing RLC as a striker in that formation
.You're probably right though; I just think looking at Chelsea's squad at the moment that formation makes the most sense in terms of accommodating our personnel.
Yeah and he also tried playing RLC as a striker in that formation
You're probably right though; I just think looking at Chelsea's squad at the moment that formation makes the most sense in terms of accommodating our personnel.
I just think Lampard struggled to get the right formation, which led to his downfall. He tried Mount as a CM in the last few weeks. The squad is so bloated with different players, type of players available to him.
I don't think Werner can play up on his own, which is why the 2 up top makes sense.
I actually think a 3-5-2 with Chilwell and James as wing backs could work.
GK - Mendy
RWB - James
LWB - Chillwell
CB - Rudiger
CB - Silva
CM - Kante
CM - Kovacic
CM - Mount
AMR - Pulisic
AML - CHO
ST - Giroud
That would be the lineup I would fear most as an opposition fan.
Genuine width from the attacking full backs and Pulisic and CHO inverted wingers should provide plenty of ammo for Giroud, who will soften up the opposition for an hour before making way for Abraham.
Midfield solid but unspectacular really, would be more of a flat three similar to Liverpool last year than a two with an AMC
Edit : Forgot about Ziyech stick him AML instead of CHO
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Mate that's 12 players; I would fancy our odds though if we could get away with that lineup!
Personally I'm hoping for something like the 4-2-2-2 we saw last year at PSG:
Mendy
James - Zouma - Silva - Chilwell
Kante - Gilmour
Ziyech - CHO
Havertz - Werner
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I did wonder how it looked so strong. Fixed it. Have to get Kante shielding
I think we'll go 4231 because easiest system to play with only 1 day to prepare. Wouldn't be surprised if we try 352 or others once Tuchel has time to coach it in training:
I think for tonight:
GK - Mendy (Kepa will get more games under Tuchel)
RB - James (Tuchel probably give instructions a lot as needs big work on defensive game)
LB - Chillwell
CB - Rudiger
CB - Silva
CDM - Gilmour
CDM - Kovacic
AMR - Pulisic / Ziyech
AMC - Havertz / Mount
AML - CHO / Werner
ST - Giroud / Abraham
How we'll play exactly, probably push high up the pitch in two home games coming up and a lot of pressing. Expect Tuchel will max substitutes every match whilst trying to figure players out.
I put couple of options in each attacking position as hard to choose. Kante goes in the pivot once fit.
I think for tonight:
GK - Mendy (Kepa will get more games under Tuchel)
RB - James (Tuchel probably give instructions a lot as needs big work on defensive game)
LB - Chillwell
CB - Rudiger
CB - Silva
CDM - Gilmour
CDM - Kovacic
AMR - Pulisic / Ziyech
AMC - Havertz / Mount
AML - CHO / Werner
ST - Giroud / Abraham
How we'll play exactly, probably push high up the pitch in two home games coming up and a lot of pressing. Expect Tuchel will max substitutes every match whilst trying to figure players out.
I put couple of options in each attacking position as hard to choose. Kante goes in the pivot once fit.
Isn't Pulisic better on the left? Tuchel likes to operate with inverted wingers. And I also think he likes fast and agile strikers, after all he had Mbappe and Aubameyang as the central men up front at his last clubs.
I'd expect him to play something like this in a 4-1-4-1:
CDM: Jorginho
RM: Ziyech
CM: Havertz, Mount
LM: Pulisic
ST: Werner
Yeah he is, but he's been pretty terrible lately, and Hudson-Odoi, currently in much better form, also favours that side so there has been widespread calls for Hudson-Odoi to be played in his best position on the left and fit Pulisic in elsewhere.
Would be very surprised if Kante is not part of first 11, no matter who the next manager is.
Tuchel's philosophy is similar to Sarri's. He likes a Busquets type at CDM just like Guardiola. Kanté would probably rather play in an advanced position in which he can press but I don't know if he's good enough attacking wise for that. He could also use him to cover an attacker with less defensive duties but he's got no Neymar or Mbappe now. He can probably ask all his playings to do the necessary leg work. Might be proven wrong but I don't see Kanté as a certain starter under Tuchel. He wouldn't play under Pep either I'd say.
Tbh Kante shouldn't have been an undisputed starter last season, Lampard bringing him straight back in after his return from injury ballsed up our momentum not once but twice.
He's done a bit better this but a long way past his very best now sadly.
Jorginho is a total liability defensively, need plan the whole system around him as Sarri did or will be left open often. Convinced we'll start under Tuchel with a double pivot as that suits our midfield options best and has the best chance to balance the team. I don't see Werner as central striker. He was deployed in a central left position at Liepzig and I think Tuchel will try play him in a similar position. Not a LW as Lampard had him playing essentially.
I see Giroud as a our best link man and finisher if we're playing a single striker.
Maybe they should go back to a Conte-esque 343 and play more on the counter? Allow Werner, Hudson-Odoi, Pulisic etc to wreck havoc with their pace.
And Kante in a 2 man midfield like he did next to Matic in 2016/17.
And Kante in a 2 man midfield like he did next to Matic in 2016/17.
Sarri played him almost every game IIRC, I can see same thing happening under Tuchel. Ideally it shouldn't happen but I think it will.
This Barnsley match has new significance to see what players he wants to take a closer look at that have not been on the pitch very much in the games since he took over.
The key difference is that Tuchel favours a 2 man midfield as opposed to a 3 man midfield as Sarri did - Kante has always been an awkward fit in the latter system, because his strengths simply are running more than the opposition and pressing high to win the ball whilst someone sits behind him.
Kante's best moments have always come when he's been part of a pairing - be that with Drinkwater at Leicester, Matic at Chelsea, or Pogba for France. Given that, it's encouraging that Tuchel has said Kante's best position is as a part of a double 6 - far better to use him there than to shoehorn him into a role as an 8.